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Thread: Fenerbahçe 2019-20

  1. #181
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    incorrect. Check Efes signings since last year. every one of them was criticized here heavily. Moerman, Pleiss, Anderson, and Peters this year. I don't even mention the previous disasters. because you know we take it easy and do not look for made-up enemies.
    Moerman was a huge surprise, he played terrible in Barça then he showed a different performance in Efes, so I could understand that. I didn't see any critic against Peters though, I think that's a good sign for Efes's system.

    It's not about made-up enemies, it's only natural. When you become a team that consistently joins F4 in every year, people may not like that team, and try to criticize anything they can find, it's part of being a big club.
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  2. #182
    Senior Member ab_mj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Moerman was a huge surprise, he played terrible in Barça then he showed a different performance in Efes, so I could understand that. I didn't see any critic against Peters though, I think that's a good sign for Efes's system.

    It's not about made-up enemies, it's only natural. When you become a team that consistently joins F4 in every year, people may not like that team, and try to criticize anything they can find, it's part of being a big club.
    And, in addition tho this statement, there are two groups in Turkey. either you are Fenerbahçe fan or you are against to Fenerbahçe (and this group of people always support a teams who are playing against to Fenerbahçe).

  3. #183
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    It's not about made-up enemies, it's only natural. When you become a team that consistently joins F4 in every year, people may not like that team, and try to criticize anything they can find, it's part of being a big club.
    I am sorry but this BS. We can comment here on any topic as we like without worrying if someone will think we're their enemies. This is not how a forum works. When was the last time anyone here replied that you're an Efes/Real/CSKA/etc hater because you commented positively or negative about their player? You can continue believing in that grand conspiracy elsewhere that they're feeding you, but it cannot be permitted here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ab_mj View Post
    And, in addition tho this statement, there are two groups in Turkey. either you are Fenerbahçe fan or you are against to Fenerbahçe (and this group of people always support a teams who are playing against to Fenerbahçe).
    this is again what they made you believe. There are 3 major clubs, one if which is Fenerbahce, and there are other millions of people out of this cycle (Trabzon, Bursa, neutrals, or FB/GS/BJK fans who can stay objective etc). this is the reason no one can discuss anything properly in TR forums or in eksisozluk etc. This is poisonous (and it goes beyond sports stuff, as you know)

    let's please enjoy the forum for what it is.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  4. #184
    Senior Member ab_mj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    this is again what they made you believe. There are 3 major clubs, one if which is Fenerbahce, and there are other millions of people out of this cycle (Trabzon, Bursa, neutrals, or FB/GS/BJK fans who can stay objective etc). this is the reason no one can discuss anything properly in TR forums or in eksisozluk etc. This is poisonous (and it goes beyond sports stuff, as you know)

    let's please enjoy the forum for what it is.
    I am fine with this forum, but before making the statement above, you should open your eyes and see what is going on in Turkey. Have you forgotten pappermoon ? meeting of other clubs presidents, supporting Fenerbahçe's opponents ? I dont see many Fenerbahçe fan support BJK against GS or vice versa, we dont care about who will win or lose, but it is not same against us. Even same in Turkish media.I remember, in 2010 FB women volleyball team lost the final game and news was something like "Fenerbahçe lost again", same yeat GS team become 3rd in lower cup and the news was something like "another legend by Galatasaray"..
    At the end, I am not pessimistic nor playing victim role, but this is how I fell.

  5. #185
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    We can comment here on any topic as we like without worrying if someone will think we're their enemies. This is not how a forum works. When was the last time anyone here replied that you're an Efes/Real/CSKA/etc hater because you commented positively or negative about their player? You can continue believing in that grand conspiracy elsewhere that they're feeding you, but it cannot be permitted here.

    let's please enjoy the forum for what it is.
    Here is what I wrote to one of the Admins:

    "I have no problem with people discussing, expressing opinions as such. However then other people (like myself) have the right to write as well...

    What are your criteria?

    "You have a signing to announce? - No
    You have a rumour to spread? - No
    You want to discuss Fener campaign, express your opinion - You have a thread for that"

    If this is your criteria, the the same people putting same shit on every FB transfer do not match the criteria as well.

    Bogdanovic is shit
    Bjelitsa is crap
    Kaliniç not worth the buyout
    Guduriç is a crappy transfer
    Finally DW is not worth that much

    None of these are an announcement for a fransfer or a rumor spreading. But you guys allow the likes of XXXXXX to keep on smearing shit to all the FB transfers.

    And when we write back and say this is bullshit...the post gets moved to Timbuktu.

    I ask for just two things:
    1. Consistency (Have your criteria and act on all users/messages in the same manner)
    2. Understand the reaction (what is being said, to who, and why)

    It is just frustrating watching the same people shitting on every FB transfer. And I feel the urge to respond. That's all."

    So...it is NOT ABOUT somebody criticising a FB transfer. It IS ABOUT certain users criticising ALL FB transfers no matter who, what, how much etc. It is mostly because FB has a certain amount of budget, and their beloved team does not

    Otherwise, of course every transfer will have people who like it, and people who do not like it, and there is nothing wrong with that...

  6. #186
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ab_mj View Post
    I am fine with this forum, but before making the statement above, you should open your eyes and see what is going on in Turkey. Have you forgotten pappermoon ? meeting of other clubs presidents, supporting Fenerbahçe's opponents ? I dont see many Fenerbahçe fan support BJK against GS or vice versa, we dont care about who will win or lose, but it is not same against us. Even same in Turkish media.I remember, in 2010 FB women volleyball team lost the final game and news was something like "Fenerbahçe lost again", same yeat GS team become 3rd in lower cup and the news was something like "another legend by Galatasaray"..
    At the end, I am not pessimistic nor playing victim role, but this is how I fell.
    I don't claim to make an objective assessment of the sports media in Turkey, which I am sure is not fair to one side or the other, but I can safely assume any fan will be inclined to remember more the ones that supports their thesis.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  7. #187
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Here is what I wrote to one of the Admins:

    "I have no problem with people discussing, expressing opinions as such. However then other people (like myself) have the right to write as well...

    What are your criteria?

    "You have a signing to announce? - No
    You have a rumour to spread? - No
    You want to discuss Fener campaign, express your opinion - You have a thread for that"

    If this is your criteria, the the same people putting same shit on every FB transfer do not match the criteria as well.

    Bogdanovic is shit
    Bjelitsa is crap
    Kaliniç not worth the buyout
    Guduriç is a crappy transfer
    Finally DW is not worth that much

    None of these are an announcement for a fransfer or a rumor spreading. But you guys allow the likes of XXXXXX to keep on smearing shit to all the FB transfers.

    And when we write back and say this is bullshit...the post gets moved to Timbuktu.

    I ask for just two things:
    1. Consistency (Have your criteria and act on all users/messages in the same manner)
    2. Understand the reaction (what is being said, to who, and why)

    It is just frustrating watching the same people shitting on every FB transfer. And I feel the urge to respond. That's all."

    So...it is NOT ABOUT somebody criticising a FB transfer. It IS ABOUT certain users criticising ALL FB transfers no matter who, what, how much etc. It is mostly because FB has a certain amount of budget, and their beloved team does not

    Otherwise, of course every transfer will have people who like it, and people who do not like it, and there is nothing wrong with that...
    I think there are two separate things here, the accidental timing of which may have given you a suspicion. First is the forum maintenance, which involves moving/deleting/combining posts etc for better readability. EL signings thread is where this is most needed, because it's the busiest and it stimulates lots of side discussions, which is great but needs to be channeled sometimes.

    the second, I humbly think, is affected by the selective memory. I should not discuss this here, but just remember Kalinic and Guduric cases.

    cheers
    Levenspiel
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  8. #188
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Let the dude talk, he obviously has no idea what he is talking about.

    I started the discussion about DW, because I think he is an overrated player. If he was signed for that amount by anyone else I would've said the same thing. It's a different story that some people do not like to hear that but that is not my problem. Tough luck, this is a forum. I am sure that Fener has their own forums where people can salivate about every signing, without any critical thought. I know that is the case, since every club has those.

    The second part of his argument is even more ridiculous. He is putting me in some kind of group of Fener haters who constantly hate on all things FB, including all the transfers Me, who was probably the No. 1 defender of Kalinic and Guduric transfers (Bogdanovic was already transfered in before I registered on the forum). I was also one of the guys that really defended Nunnally signing. Like I said, the dude is talking out of his ass.

    For the end, I will say the following. Some people will cry about racism in the forum, other's about favoritism of certain people, but it is completely obvious that 90%+ of all arguments in the forum directly come from two sources:

    - Greek - Turkish stuff
    - Cetrain Turkish posters against the rest of the forum. Whether it's transfers, titles, budgets or whatever else.

    The other 10% is mostly related to rivalries (Oly-Pao etc.) or disagreements about certain players.

    It would take a fool not to see that majority of the conflicts stem from the same place. It is not a coincidence. I personally don't care if some people come after me for saying this, you have to be blind not to see this over the years. Also, I have tremendous respect for some Turkish posters in this forum who are just phenomenal guys and a pleasure to discuss basketball with (shout out to Janketa and Vivo) but there have always been guys who can't communicate and resort to low blows and insults.

    That's all...

  9. #189
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Some self-proclaimed self-absorbed basketball guy with zero credibility... Don't have the desire to discuss with bigots who have loud mouth. Fortunately, I don't have to live with the shit (or bullshit) he pours on the forum. Unfortunately, he has to live with himself. A person can hide his/her shallowness with agression from others, but not from himself/herself.
    Now go ahead, make some sarcastic remark...you funny little twerp I am on vacation for about a month but I will come back end of Aug and read just to pity...
    So long!

  10. #190
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Some self-proclaimed self-absorbed basketball guy with zero credibility... Don't have the desire to discuss with bigots who have loud mouth. Fortunately, I don't have to live with the shit (or bullshit) he pours on the forum. Unfortunately, he has to live with himself. A person can hide his/her shallowness with agression from others, but not from himself/herself.
    Now go ahead, make some sarcastic remark...you funny little twerp I am on vacation for about a month but I will come back end of Aug and read just to pity...
    So long!
    Have a nice vacation mate. Hopefully, you come back with something to say on the actual topic you have blasted [----deleted----] and don't see the need to contribute.

    Last edited by Levenspiel; 07-23-2019 at 01:07 PM.

  11. #191
    Senior Member iskoch's Avatar
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    @CoachZ

    We were good without u here. Why did u come back? Take ur Zvezda too and go to Eurocup please.
    Republic of FENERBAHÇE

  12. #192
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    You may not like a player personally, but if you are objective you can't say Derrick Williams doesn't deserve 1,5 million when Singleton earned 2 million from Barça. As far as I am concerned I would choose Williams over Singleton, however you can't deny the fact they are still close in terms skills and shooting ability.

    Singleton ; 24:58 min - 8 pts - 4.4 reb - 0.9 ast - 0.5 blk - 1.1 stl - 2.4 fauls received per game - 8.1 PIR
    Williams ; 26:02 min - 13.4 pts - 4.2 reb - 0.6 ast - 0.5 blk - 0.6 stl - 4.1 fauls received per game - 14.2 PIR

    Statistically Williams > Singleton also.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
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    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 Turkish League Champion ---
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  13. #193
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    You may not like a player personally, but if you are objective you can't say Derrick Williams doesn't deserve 1,5 million when Singleton earned 2 million from Barça. As far as I am concerned I would choose Williams over Singleton, however you can't deny the fact they are still close in terms skills and shooting ability.

    Singleton ; 24:58 min - 8 pts - 4.4 reb - 0.9 ast - 0.5 blk - 1.1 stl - 2.4 fauls received per game - 8.1 PIR
    Williams ; 26:02 min - 13.4 pts - 4.2 reb - 0.6 ast - 0.5 blk - 0.6 stl - 4.1 fauls received per game - 14.2 PIR

    Statistically Williams > Singleton also.
    The statistical analysis you have done is fine, but who says that Singleton is worth that money either He would've been a better fit for Fener, but far from the worth of that kind of money too.

    Take this dude for example:

    25:30 min - 9.7 pts - 5.9 reb - 0.8 ast - 1.2 blk - 0.7 stl - 2.9 fouls - 13.8 PIR in EL last season. 65.1% for 2 and 37.9% for 3.

    You could probably have him for 1/3 of the money. His name is Jeremy Evans. Also fantastic physical specimen, much harder worker and hustle guy.

  14. #194
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    The statistical analysis you have done is fine, but who says that Singleton is worth that money either He would've been a better fit for Fener, but far from the worth of that kind of money too.

    Take this dude for example:

    25:30 min - 9.7 pts - 5.9 reb - 0.8 ast - 1.2 blk - 0.7 stl - 2.9 fouls - 13.8 PIR in EL last season. 65.1% for 2 and 37.9% for 3.

    You could probably have him for 1/3 of the money. His name is Jeremy Evans. Also fantastic physical specimen, much harder worker and hustle guy.
    Yeah maybe, but Evans is better at 3 (sf) rather than he is at 4 (pf), and I don't think he can hustle with the big guys as good as Williams. Though he is better at blocks. As for his shooting, he used only 58 3pts in the whole season while Williams used 108 3pts, almost twice that number, it's natural that his 3pts percentage would be lower when he uses twice of Evans in a game. Also Bayern's position was different than Daçka's position in EL, Bayern was always in the competition for playoffs while Daçka gave up too early, like after first 6 or 7 weeks. Williams actually proved himself in a EL playoff candidate team. That's also important. I am pretty sure if Williams was playing in Daçka, his statistics would be even higher, and even then Williams has still better statistics than Evans too.
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  15. #195
    Senior Member drskull's Avatar
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    f.ck stats. williams is just the guy we need. nuff said. mic drop.
    sex, droga i bodiroga.

  16. #196
    Senior Member CoachZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Yeah maybe, but Evans is better at 3 (sf) rather than he is at 4 (pf), and I don't think he can hustle with the big guys as good as Williams. Though he is better at blocks. As for his shooting, he used only 58 3pts in the whole season while Williams used 108 3pts, almost twice that number, it's natural that his 3pts percentage would be lower when he uses twice of Evans in a game. Also Bayern's position was different than Daçka's position in EL, Bayern was always in the competition for playoffs while Daçka gave up too early, like after first 6 or 7 weeks. Williams actually proved himself in a EL playoff candidate team. That's also important. I am pretty sure if Williams was playing in Daçka, his statistics would be even higher, and even then Williams has still better statistics than Evans too.
    Actually, you are wrong in many aspects:

    - Jeremy Evans was the 3rd option on offense in Dacka, behind Toney Douglas and Michael Eric. Yet he managed to post almost identical efficiency numbers to Williams who was bonafide No. 1 option for Bayern.
    - Also, I don't see how are Williams stats better in any way but an average number of points. He is a worse rebounder, a worse rim protector, a worse shooter in both 2pt and 3pt and above all worse defender. So, you can make an argument that Williams scored more but even that is a question mark, because he had a No. 1 role on the team, if Evans was given the same in Dacka, who knows what kind of numbers he would post.
    - Jeremy Evans is a power-forward. No idea where you got this SF feeling about him. On NBA level, he might show up as a SF in some bully-ball lineups but he is a PF.

    Again, this is why I said giving a 1.5 mil contract to this profile of a player is just crazy overpaying. When you have guys like Jeremy Evans around for a third of that price easy...

  17. #197
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...he-pre-season/

    ''Fenerbahce to face Partizan, Treviso, Virtus Bologna, Maccabi, PAO and Milano in the pre-season''


    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Actually, you are wrong in many aspects:

    - Jeremy Evans was the 3rd option on offense in Dacka, behind Toney Douglas and Michael Eric. Yet he managed to post almost identical efficiency numbers to Williams who was bonafide No. 1 option for Bayern.
    - Also, I don't see how are Williams stats better in any way but an average number of points. He is a worse rebounder, a worse rim protector, a worse shooter in both 2pt and 3pt and above all worse defender. So, you can make an argument that Williams scored more but even that is a question mark, because he had a No. 1 role on the team, if Evans was given the same in Dacka, who knows what kind of numbers he would post.
    - Jeremy Evans is a power-forward. No idea where you got this SF feeling about him. On NBA level, he might show up as a SF in some bully-ball lineups but he is a PF.

    Again, this is why I said giving a 1.5 mil contract to this profile of a player is just crazy overpaying. When you have guys like Jeremy Evans around for a third of that price easy...
    I watched Daçka's games, Evans was the third option or even sometimes fourth option because he doesn't have that one-on-one skill to make the basket. Dougles was more skilled, and Eric was a better finisher under the rim. They needed to create a position for Evans to score, he is good at that, but he doesn't have Williams' one-on-one skills.
    Williams' stats are better due to PIR, receiving more fauls, and scoring a lot more basket than Evans. And Williams' team Bayern was a more competitive team than Daçka on the last season.
    Evans is tall, but he isn't strong enough as far as I see, if someone with a big size comes up even Kalinic could stand better than Evans against a big guy, that was my point.

    As far as I am concerned Evans isn't on Williams' level as a player.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Actually, you are wrong in many aspects:

    - Jeremy Evans was the 3rd option on offense in Dacka, behind Toney Douglas and Michael Eric. Yet he managed to post almost identical efficiency numbers to Williams who was bonafide No. 1 option for Bayern.
    - Also, I don't see how are Williams stats better in any way but an average number of points. He is a worse rebounder, a worse rim protector, a worse shooter in both 2pt and 3pt and above all worse defender. So, you can make an argument that Williams scored more but even that is a question mark, because he had a No. 1 role on the team, if Evans was given the same in Dacka, who knows what kind of numbers he would post.
    - Jeremy Evans is a power-forward. No idea where you got this SF feeling about him. On NBA level, he might show up as a SF in some bully-ball lineups but he is a PF.

    Again, this is why I said giving a 1.5 mil contract to this profile of a player is just crazy overpaying. When you have guys like Jeremy Evans around for a third of that price easy...
    Fener don't need to save the money they need to get top player. Maybe for Zalgiris paying Evans 500k is more logical instead of Williams 1 m but for Fener paying Williams 1,5 m more logical than paying Evans 500k.

    Also you are heavily underrating Williams. He is one of the most talented Pf in the league. He has class differences with Evans. One of them were third option at last standing team the other one is top dog of play-off chaser. Also just looking at states and saying worse 2 pt shooter worst 3 pt shooter definition is too weak. Tavares has %72 at 2 pt but he is not better than Davies at 2 pt shoots. He just use shoots for dunks

    Regarding your perspective Spanoulis is just a mediocre player who have around %48 at 2 pt and %32 at 3 pt almost whole career. But he is a legend. Being top dog of the team have some consequences , low efficiency is one of them. He has to use more shoots to give enough space to team mates. Bayer's off rating drops from 106 to 92 when he is not at the court. This is huge differences. He had very good rookie year and the improvement at second year is very likely we have seen many times at American nba players. He probably will increase his percentages which are not bad already with a better shoot selection.

    To talk about his aspect he is athletic freak for Europe and he is able to create his own shoot which is very rare for forwards in eurolegue. He was picked as second pick in nba draft and most of the NBA experts were expecting a lot of things from him. ( he was considered as top prospect). Fener lacked of talent after Bogdan and Udoh departure regarding their title opponents. They need to have more talent, De Colo and Williams are among the best for talent-wise. You think different obviously but time will show the truth.

  19. #199
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Actually, you are wrong in many aspects:

    - Jeremy Evans was the 3rd option on offense in Dacka, behind Toney Douglas and Michael Eric. Yet he managed to post almost identical efficiency numbers to Williams who was bonafide No. 1 option for Bayern.
    - Also, I don't see how are Williams stats better in any way but an average number of points. He is a worse rebounder, a worse rim protector, a worse shooter in both 2pt and 3pt and above all worse defender. So, you can make an argument that Williams scored more but even that is a question mark, because he had a No. 1 role on the team, if Evans was given the same in Dacka, who knows what kind of numbers he would post.
    - Jeremy Evans is a power-forward. No idea where you got this SF feeling about him. On NBA level, he might show up as a SF in some bully-ball lineups but he is a PF.

    Again, this is why I said giving a 1.5 mil contract to this profile of a player is just crazy overpaying. When you have guys like Jeremy Evans around for a third of that price easy...
    Tevfik and Saras_Fan have some good explanations, I'll just reiterate two points that are important imho:

    Due to the players who have left and some salary opening due to cuts in new salaries, we don't need to cut corners. If Williams has a 10% risk of being a bust with us and Evans has 40%, Gherardini will pay 1 m€ more and it's the right move for this situation. As long as the ends meet (same budget as last year) it's all fine.

    Williams was the guy who had to take toughest shots in Bayern due to being the most talented player, and even then his shot selection (my eye test) and efficiency aren't bad. Whereas Evans took more open shots, assisted shots, it's easier to have a good percentage. I believe Williams will have better percentages compared to his stats this year, with more options and better ball sharing in Fener, UNLESS he has a change of heart and takes bad shots (unlikely as he probably wants to go back to NBA).
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  20. #200
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post


    Again, this is why I said giving a 1.5 mil contract to this profile of a player is just crazy overpaying. When you have guys like Jeremy Evans around for a third of that price easy...
    We missed in same way Higgins and brought Nunnally. Not that Nunnally isn't worth money he was payed but we miss opportunities for much better players. In that moment Higgins price was similar as Nunnally. You are right for all you said.

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