View Poll Results: Who is your favorite to the title?

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  • Fenerbahce

    8 25.81%
  • CSKA Moscow

    3 9.68%
  • Real Madrid

    13 41.94%
  • Anadolu Efes

    7 22.58%
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Thread: [2019 F4 Vitoria] Fener-CSKA-Real-Efes

  1. #221
    Senior Member drskull's Avatar
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    almost all EL legends at least took their chance or at most made an impact in nba. it is kinda what is being an EL legend is all about... you choose stay or you take your chance turn back empty handed and be forced to stay. boom, you are an EL legend. it is and was always like this. you guys are speaking like saras never knocked on the NBA door and there won't be another saras. someone will rise up eventually.

    if we are talking about EL "exclusive" players, than yes we can say goodbye to that era. no more bodiroga.
    sex, droga i bodiroga.

  2. #222
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Your anti-FB side showed its face again

    Fact 1- Best teams in Europe leaved FIBA because of fixing games with terrible referees, that's a fact. Even now, TBF says that FIBA is full of crap when it comes to that.
    Fact 2- Nba team owner and a former Nba coach said it, European basketball is better right now.

    ''Nonsense'' is denying these facts, don't pretend as if you know better than them.
    you see, that's how I'm labeled fener-hater.

    When someone, especially like you mister, comes with an outrageous claim, my reaction is not against Fener, it's against you (or people like you).

    Your lengthy arguments remind me those of Dr Sinan Sagiroglu. I cannot take them seriously.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  3. #223
    Senior Member drskull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    ... Dr Sinan Sagiroglu....
    good old times, really lol'ed. hard. gonna watch.
    sex, droga i bodiroga.

  4. #224
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    you see, that's how I'm labeled fener-hater.

    When someone, especially like you mister, comes with an outrageous claim, my reaction is not against Fener, it's against you (or people like you).

    Your lengthy arguments remind me those of Dr Sinan Sagiroglu. I cannot take them seriously.
    Sometimes you look like one, maybe you can help me to understand you're actually not.

    Ok, which arguments here you can't take seriously?

    Best teams of Europe leaves FIBA tournaments because of game fixing and biased referees or statements from an NBA team owner and a former NBA coach which is about European basketball, I am just curious because these statements do not even belong to me, these are facts.

    And you're saying these are ''outrageous claims'' while it's not, it's a fact. If you think it's not a fact I would like to hear your reasons why so I can understand why I am biased and you're not.

    Also I would be happy if no one replies this post but Levenspiel, I am just asking him and there is no need for another new argument.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

  5. #225
    Senior Member Adon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Sometimes you look like one, maybe you can help me to understand you're actually not.

    Ok, which arguments here you can't take seriously?

    Best teams of Europe leaves FIBA tournaments because of game fixing and biased referees or statements from an NBA team owner and a former NBA coach which is about European basketball, I am just curious because these statements do not even belong to me, these are facts.

    And you're saying these are ''outrageous claims'' while it's not, it's a fact. If you think it's not a fact I would like to hear your reasons why so I can understand why I am biased and you're not.

    Also I would be happy if no one replies this post but Levenspiel, I am just asking him and there is no need for another new argument.
    So, you want a duel between you and Levenspiel
    Apparently you can't understand the concept of the forum and public discussion. For private conversations you can use pm.

    You keep on repeating the nonsense about "best teams leaving FIBA because of game fixing". Nobody left FIBA, it was just a financial war between FIBA and a private company (which usurped the title "Euroleague") and the stake was the money from the top competition in Europe.

    Refereeing became better because of 1) The third referee and 2) The instant replay. It still sucks. But, how can you compare refereeing without having watched the games in the 90s? Get real. Repeating your version cannot change history.

  6. #226
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    Hi guys, Unfortunately I wont be able to go to Vittoria so I'm selling my tickets at reasonable prices.

    Please reach out to me at thanosp7@hotmail.com if you are interesting.

    Thanks,

    Thanos

  7. #227
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    So, you want a duel between you and Levenspiel
    Apparently you can't understand the concept of the forum and public discussion. For private conversations you can use pm.

    You keep on repeating the nonsense about "best teams leaving FIBA because of game fixing". Nobody left FIBA, it was just a financial war between FIBA and a private company (which usurped the title "Euroleague") and the stake was the money from the top competition in Europe.

    Refereeing became better because of 1) The third referee and 2) The instant replay. It still sucks. But, how can you compare refereeing without having watched the games in the 90s? Get real. Repeating your version cannot change history.
    No I understand the concept of the forums which is why I am asking nicely before anyone answers it, obviously you don't care any of that.

    I just don't want anyone like you mix things up before getting an answer from Levenspiel since he accuses my post as ''outrageous claim'' and ''nonsense''.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

  8. #228
    Senior Member markkanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    No I understand the concept of the forums which is why I am asking nicely before anyone answers it, obviously you don't care any of that.

    I just don't want anyone like you mix things up before getting an answer from Levenspiel since he accuses my post as ''outrageous claim'' and ''nonsense''.
    Well, actually, it is. It's all about your club and your attempts to glorify your club one more time. I mean, what about this:

    So what happened to the level of the league? I thought it was decreasing? 2012 mvp Spanoulis couldn't even be a benchwarmer in NBA right? These are exceptions.

    Players like Cedi Osman or Joe Ingles (regular players in Euroleague) now can play in NBA because of Europe's level has actually increased, NBA also offered another new contract for Vesely but he didn't accept it, and he probably will not. NBA is watching much more closely, and offering more money than ever before because Europe's basketball is better than ever before.
    It's just false facts. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Spanoulis, DD, Navarro, Rudy, De Colo, Teodosic and other great players want bigger role than just "you are some shooter who wait in the corner until team's best player choose to give you a ball".

    I mean, Osman, he has such important role in such succesfull club! Cleveland freaking Cavaliers! You are a fool if you think that you can say that Osman or Korkmaz or Bertans are better players than De Colo or Rodriguez or Spanoulis in past or Printezis or Teodosic.

    It's very simple - great player who want to be leader of his team or have a important role will stay in Europe (and like Killer Bob said there will be no more of such a great players like Teodosic or Spanoulis), average players who don't bother to be some bench options in some unimportant NBA clubs will go to NBA (players like Osman, Bertans, Zipser, Theis, Korkmaz, Zubac, Zizic, Satoransky ... they are all not important players in great teams like Jokic, Giannis, Markkanen, Porzigins, Doncic, etc), and bunch of Americans who missed their chances in NBA and must go to Europe.

    I mean, all of your comments (you, Ziya K, and some other posters who supports FB) is about "our club is the best, our players is the best in Europe, we will gonna smash you all". Yes, european basketball will be powerfull when Shved, De Colo, Llull, Teodosic, Rudy, Spanoulis, Sloukas, Vesely will retire, we will enjoy in Tyler Ennis, Nigel Williams Goss and Jason Thompson magic.

  9. #229
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markkanen View Post
    Well, actually, it is. It's all about your club and your attempts to glorify your club one more time. I mean, what about this:



    It's just false facts. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Spanoulis, DD, Navarro, Rudy, De Colo, Teodosic and other great players want bigger role than just "you are some shooter who wait in the corner until team's best player choose to give you a ball".

    I mean, Osman, he has such important role in such succesfull club! Cleveland freaking Cavaliers! You are a fool if you think that you can say that Osman or Korkmaz or Bertans are better players than De Colo or Rodriguez or Spanoulis in past or Printezis or Teodosic.

    It's very simple - great player who want to be leader of his team or have a important role will stay in Europe (and like Killer Bob said there will be no more of such a great players like Teodosic or Spanoulis), average players who don't bother to be some bench options in some unimportant NBA clubs will go to NBA (players like Osman, Bertans, Zipser, Theis, Korkmaz, Zubac, Zizic, Satoransky ... they are all not important players in great teams like Jokic, Giannis, Markkanen, Porzigins, Doncic, etc), and bunch of Americans who missed their chances in NBA and must go to Europe.

    I mean, all of your comments (you, Ziya K, and some other posters who supports FB) is about "our club is the best, our players is the best in Europe, we will gonna smash you all". Yes, european basketball will be powerfull when Shved, De Colo, Llull, Teodosic, Rudy, Spanoulis, Sloukas, Vesely will retire, we will enjoy in Tyler Ennis, Nigel Williams Goss and Jason Thompson magic.
    Which is why I asked Levenspiel You didn't understand what I said there and completely mix things up as I've guessed.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by markkanen View Post
    I mean, all of your comments (you, Ziya K, and some other posters who supports FB) is about "our club is the best, our players is the best in Europe, we will gonna smash you all". Yes, european basketball will be powerfull when Shved, De Colo, Llull, Teodosic, Rudy, Spanoulis, Sloukas, Vesely will retire, we will enjoy in Tyler Ennis, Nigel Williams Goss and Jason Thompson magic.
    you're full of bullshit.
    i've never said these things. sorry if i have offended you by favoring fener against zalgiris in pos

  11. #231
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    Why can't Fener fans just enjoy their team's success and they have to make everything about them all the time? Honestly, this is getting frustrating.
    Dear Paspalj,

    It is not a simple phenomenon, but a compound one. Here, in my opinion, are the contributors;

    - One of the contributing factors is the fact that Fenerbahçe have not had this level of success before. This makes people happy, proud, and instigates not only sharing this pride but also showing off as if to say "look what I have".

    - Another contributing factor is the fact that Fenerbahçe is new to the top level basketball scene, and manners (among other things) need to be learned. I remember my very first live F4 in Madrid. I have watched the arena with awe, and said to myself "we have a lot to learn", we being both personally and collectively as fans and the club itself.

    - A lot of people are too preoccupied with reflecting and owning the court attitude of Fenerbahce, that they are not aware they betray that sportsmenlike attitude. This situation is created by a lot of fans rushing to the discussions they are not qualified to discuss. (i.e. football fans jumping at the bandwagon)

    - Unfortunately active users of this forum are not that crowded. Since others are not joining the discussion, it seems there are only Fenerbahce fans around. Indeed nearly half the daily users are FB fans. This is NOT because FB fans scared them away. This is because some other teams are NOT SUCCESSFUL. I remember my first days in this forum...there were much more Pao, Zvezda, Maccabi, Oly, Partizan, Milan etc discussions.

    - The sheer amount of FB support, and the above factors combined, created an environment where even the gracious and calm members are taking an slight anti-FB approach. I can understand because it is normal human behavior...I am not judging. But we have to understand it is a contributing factor. (Even I did get angry at remarks like "When Ulker was no more, Fenerbahce was born")

    - Finally, we still feed the trolls

    Anyway, these are the factors in my opinion. I think we do not need less contributon from Fenerbahçe fans, but we absolutely need more contribution from forum members supporting other teams.

    Best,

  12. #232
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Like things are looking at the moment, we will have only Fener fans and Levenspiel writing in this forum next year.
    previously known as Beno

  13. #233
    Senior Member iraz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Dear Paspalj,

    It is not a simple phenomenon, but a compound one. Here, in my opinion, are the contributors;

    - One of the contributing factors is the fact that Fenerbahçe have not had this level of success before. This makes people happy, proud, and instigates not only sharing this pride but also showing off as if to say "look what I have".

    - Another contributing factor is the fact that Fenerbahçe is new to the top level basketball scene, and manners (among other things) need to be learned. I remember my very first live F4 in Madrid. I have watched the arena with awe, and said to myself "we have a lot to learn", we being both personally and collectively as fans and the club itself.

    - A lot of people are too preoccupied with reflecting and owning the court attitude of Fenerbahce, that they are not aware they betray that sportsmenlike attitude. This situation is created by a lot of fans rushing to the discussions they are not qualified to discuss. (i.e. football fans jumping at the bandwagon)

    - Unfortunately active users of this forum are not that crowded. Since others are not joining the discussion, it seems there are only Fenerbahce fans around. Indeed nearly half the daily users are FB fans. This is NOT because FB fans scared them away. This is because some other teams are NOT SUCCESSFUL. I remember my first days in this forum...there were much more Pao, Zvezda, Maccabi, Oly, Partizan, Milan etc discussions.

    - The sheer amount of FB support, and the above factors combined, created an environment where even the gracious and calm members are taking an slight anti-FB approach. I can understand because it is normal human behavior...I am not judging. But we have to understand it is a contributing factor. (Even I did get angry at remarks like "When Ulker was no more, Fenerbahce was born")

    - Finally, we still feed the trolls

    Anyway, these are the factors in my opinion. I think we do not need less contributon from Fenerbahçe fans, but we absolutely need more contribution from forum members supporting other teams.

    Best,
    Very reasonable post.
    I only hope that other FB fans, especially Tevfik1907, will read it and share your attitude.

  14. #234
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Look I am not underestimating Zalgris's success in 1999 or saying that the referees helped it, I am just talking about the facts.

    You can't expect me to believe that FIBA's refereing system was fine. That's all I am saying, EL is not perfect today but it's much better than FIBA's, even today they still have that shitty and suspicious referees, I can't imagine what was going on back in the old days that best teams of Europe had to leave FIBA.
    I didn't talk about referees at all, you turned our discussion into totally different topic. We talked about talent in league. While refs weren't great back then and they aren't now. Some better, some worse. And clubs left FIBA not cause of referees, it was purely financial thing. FIBA was stubborn and old school, they weren't flexible enough, they couldn't attract money, when whole sports world was moving forward, FIBA was stuck in 60s. Clubs weren't happy obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    This discussion started it from the EL final four history anyway, let's stick on thread, I was talking about the new 2002 EL and after, the current EL. Let's not go back to the stone age.
    Better make it till Fenerbahce showed up for the first time in Final4 and after it. Would make more sense, like in Christianity there is BC (before Christ) and AD, so make it BF (before Fener) and AD. We would be living in 4th year of new great basketball era, screw the stone age and those wildlings from the past


  15. #235
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Better make it till Fenerbahce showed up for the first time in Final4 and after it. Would make more sense, like in Christianity there is BC (before Christ) and AD, so make it BF (before Fener) and AD. We would be living in 4th year of new great basketball era, screw the stone age and those wildlings from the past
    And you turn this into everyone vs. FB thing while I never said anything about it, I was simply talking about what objective people say about European basketball ; like Cuban and Pitino, so according to you people, Cuban and Pitino too must be Fenerbahçe fans because they think Europe is better now

    But no, European basketball sucks right now because no greek and lithuanian team are on the finals. This is what you do, and then blame Fenerbahçe fans for saying that Europe is better and referees are better now, saying Europe is better now almost a crime for you people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    I didn't talk about referees at all, you turned our discussion into totally different topic. We talked about talent in league. While refs weren't great back then and they aren't now. Some better, some worse. And clubs left FIBA not cause of referees, it was purely financial thing. FIBA was stubborn and old school, they weren't flexible enough, they couldn't attract money, when whole sports world was moving forward, FIBA was stuck in 60s. Clubs weren't happy obviously.
    First post of mine was about the problems with FIBA and referees before 2002

    Right here;

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    I know, but I refuse to accept it was ''the same'' After all, many european teams have had enough of FIBA's fixing games with terrible referees, it's hard to say the old EL had the same quality. That's the reason why other teams seperated from FIBA and created ULEB in the first place. Of course some will say it was mainly because of the financial reasons but simply FIBA wasn't successful at it.

    Somehow you turned it into that talent dicussion which makes no sense for me.
    Last edited by Tevfik1907; 05-06-2019 at 10:27 AM.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

  16. #236
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iraz View Post
    Very reasonable post.
    I only hope that other FB fans, especially Tevfik1907, will read it and share your attitude.
    What was my attitude exactly? Are you guys even following the discussions on this forum? Or just blindly jumping on it when it was related to Fenerbahçe?

    Let me give you a quick summary;

    We were talking about EL final four history, and I said 1999 wasn't belong it to that since it was a FIBA competition, and also the table about final four teams that Levenspiel used was for only 2002 and after teams included, then mindozas said pre-2002 is all the same and Levenspiel also said pre-2002 EL was better.

    Then some greek friends here came and said Dominique Wilkins is the greatest nba star ever played in Europe then I corrected him by saying Allen Iverson in 2011 played in TBL, he was the greatest nba star ever played in Europe.

    Then I showed the statements from objective people like Cuban and Pitino who were talking about the current situation of European basketball, then Levenspiel ignored all of it and said ''oooh, now I get it. This is all this nonsense about.'' and blamed me for being biased.

    It's not a problem when other says old europe is better by using wrong arguments like Dominique Wilkins, but when I say Europe is better now by using solid arguments from objective people it's not true and just Fenerbahçe fans are being wrong again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Like things are looking at the moment, we will have only Fener fans and Levenspiel writing in this forum next year.
    I can easily leave this forum if that's what you want, that's not a problem for me. I've banned before after all because of Levenspiel.

    And then you can talk about true European powerhouses like Panathinaikos, Dominique Wilkins and FIBA's Euroleague all the same.
    FENERBAHÇE BASKETBALL
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019 Turkish Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 TBL Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

  17. #237
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Like things are looking at the moment, we will have only Fener fans and Levenspiel writing in this forum next year.
    If Teodosic comes back and is injured as usual, he might join us as the 2nd CSKA fan here.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  18. #238
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    What was my attitude exactly? Are you guys even following the discussions on this forum? Or just blindly jumping on it when it was related to Fenerbahçe?

    Let me give you a quick summary;

    We were talking about EL final four history, and I said 1999 wasn't belong it to that since it was a FIBA competition, and also the table about final four teams that Levenspiel used was for only 2002 and after teams included, then mindozas said pre-2002 is all the same and Levenspiel also said pre-2002 EL was better.

    Then some greek friends here came and said Dominique Wilkins is the greatest nba star ever played in Europe then I corrected him by saying Allen Iverson in 2011 played in TBL, he was the greatest nba star ever played in Europe.

    Then I showed the statements from objective people like Cuban and Pitino who were talking about the current situation of European basketball, then Levenspiel ignored all of it and said ''oooh, now I get it. This is all this nonsense about.'' and blamed me for being biased.

    It's not a problem when other says old europe is better by using wrong arguments like Dominique Wilkins, but when I say Europe is better now by using solid arguments from objective people it's not true and just Fenerbahçe fans are being wrong again.



    I can easily leave this forum if that's what you want, that's not a problem for me. I've banned before after all because of Levenspiel.

    And then you can talk about true European powerhouses like Panathinaikos, Dominique Wilkins and FIBA's Euroleague all the same.
    I believe anybody can write whatever he wants until he gets personal and rude towards other writers. Some, especially Fener fans, not necessarily you, don’t understand those simple rules.

    No need for somebody to leave the forum, but if you believe that people will massively and happily participate in that kind of environment, you are wrong.

    Look at the chart how number of international players went up in Nba in last 20 years.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/growi...-slows-2018-10
    previously known as Beno

  19. #239
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    No I understand the concept of the forums which is why I am asking nicely before anyone answers it, obviously you don't care any of that.

    I just don't want anyone like you mix things up before getting an answer from Levenspiel since he accuses my post as ''outrageous claim'' and ''nonsense''.
    Look, I previously banned you for an entire year for this. for flooding. Not for usual offences like spamming, insulting, provocation, etc, but for invading the threads and flooding it until no one can bear it any more. Dr Sinan Sagiroglu-analogy fits you well, mostly because you drive the other side nuts , the experience shows that no answer will stop you. I kinda appreciate your excitement, nothing personal, but you kill the forum.

    please take it easy, or I'll have to save the forum again.

    Now, if you really need my answer, on top of everyone else's. I will reply to you when I have time, but on PM.
    5 out 6 scientists say Russian roulette is safe.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Dear Paspalj,

    It is not a simple phenomenon, but a compound one. Here, in my opinion, are the contributors;

    - One of the contributing factors is the fact that Fenerbahçe have not had this level of success before. This makes people happy, proud, and instigates not only sharing this pride but also showing off as if to say "look what I have".

    - Another contributing factor is the fact that Fenerbahçe is new to the top level basketball scene, and manners (among other things) need to be learned. I remember my very first live F4 in Madrid. I have watched the arena with awe, and said to myself "we have a lot to learn", we being both personally and collectively as fans and the club itself.

    - A lot of people are too preoccupied with reflecting and owning the court attitude of Fenerbahce, that they are not aware they betray that sportsmenlike attitude. This situation is created by a lot of fans rushing to the discussions they are not qualified to discuss. (i.e. football fans jumping at the bandwagon)

    - Unfortunately active users of this forum are not that crowded. Since others are not joining the discussion, it seems there are only Fenerbahce fans around. Indeed nearly half the daily users are FB fans. This is NOT because FB fans scared them away. This is because some other teams are NOT SUCCESSFUL. I remember my first days in this forum...there were much more Pao, Zvezda, Maccabi, Oly, Partizan, Milan etc discussions.

    - The sheer amount of FB support, and the above factors combined, created an environment where even the gracious and calm members are taking an slight anti-FB approach. I can understand because it is normal human behavior...I am not judging. But we have to understand it is a contributing factor. (Even I did get angry at remarks like "When Ulker was no more, Fenerbahce was born")

    - Finally, we still feed the trolls

    Anyway, these are the factors in my opinion. I think we do not need less contributon from Fenerbahçe fans, but we absolutely need more contribution from forum members supporting other teams.

    Best,
    +another factor: taking one person and generalizing his act to all fans.

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