[2019 F4 Vitoria] Fener-CSKA-Real-Efes

[usagre]

Great post Adon. I wonder how many people here know who Bob McAdoo was.

[usagre]

If the leagues continue to trend in this direction you will never see a world class player like Dejan Bodiroga play his entire prime without an NBA attempt. Even an example like Sergio Llull will probably never be seen again either. If he was 5 years younger today I would almost guarantee he would flee to the NBA.

It’s just the way it is because of economic reasons.

[Adon]

Great post Adon. I wonder how many people here know who Bob McAdoo was.

Actually, I didn't mention McAdoo, Roy Tarpley, Xavier McDaniel etc because they are unknown to all those who underestimate EL before 2003.

[usagre]

Actually, I didn't mention McAdoo, Roy Tarpley, Xavier McDaniel etc because they are unknown to all those who underestimate EL before 2003.

You can throw in Eddie Johnson as well.
Another thing to consider is that in the late ‘80’s many European league stars did not come over to Nba because they would lose their status as amateurs and therefore not be allowed to represent their national teams. Nick Gallis, Oscar Schmidt are obvious examples of this. Young Sabonis and Petrovic as well.

[dgd13]

Yeah, it totally makes sense to compare 25 years ago and now

Btw I agree Europe loses its biggest talents as nowadays nobody refuses to go to NBA compared to old times, but we also get more players from NBA.

This was a reply to to Tefvik who asked "How many former NBA players were playing in EL before 2000? And how many former NBA players are playing on the EL now? It's mutual." to prove that the EL before 2003 was easier. And I simply gave you the biggest NBA star who has ever played in Europe, without even mentioning the likes of Tarpley, Byron Scott (3x NBA champion as a starter) McAdoo, Xavier McDaniel and more. We are talking about all-stars, champions and MVPs that came over from the NBA, not 12th players with 10mpg.

I mean it is fine if you started watching European Basketball around 2010 just don't try to change the facts about the level of the league and how many European AND American stars were playing in Europe in the 1990s.

[vivo]

You mean we get more NBA rejects now.
In the old times there were some NBA legends AND the best European stars.

Some of us had lived bball in the 80's and 90's. Imagine how strangely we feel when we read "how things were back then" from people who have no idea what they are talking about, simply because they were unborn or too young to follow bball of this era.

Btw , " The FIBA European Champions Cup and the EuroLeague are considered to be the same competition, with the change of name being simply a re-branding."

Did I mention today's ex NBA players in EL are better than Dominique Wilkins? I don't need to have been born earlier to not be stupid.

What I mean was, as long as NBA rosters are made of 15 players and Euroleague is more attractive compared to G-League(which is a big danger), we will get borderline NBA players for every player we lose. I don't compare Doncic and I don't know, fucking Kuzminskas. It was more like a Larkin vs Wanamaker comparison, no need to be condescending.

[vivo]

This was a reply to to Tefvik who asked "How many former NBA players were playing in EL before 2000? And how many former NBA players are playing on the EL now? It's mutual." to prove that the EL before 2003 was easier. And I simply gave you the biggest NBA star who has ever played in Europe, without even mentioning the likes of Tarpley, Byron Scott (3x NBA champion as a starter) McAdoo, Xavier McDaniel and more. We are talking about all-stars, champions and MVPs that came over from the NBA, not 12th players with 10mpg.

I mean it is fine if you started watching European Basketball around 2010 just don't try to change the facts about the level of the league and how many European AND American stars were playing in Europe in the 1990s.

I simply stated we can't simply compare then and now - way too many things have changed. There's no point dwelling in nostalgia when we have a completely different reality now.

Btw why tf would I underestimate European basketball in 90s? Adon also alluded to same thing. Euroleague is a dying product, and it will die unless they somehow increase its revenues drastically. I have stated this numerous times in the past here, considering its your 2nd post, maybe you should hold off with your assumptions.

[usagre]

There was also an unknown or fear factor associated with a European star making an NBA attempt back in the day. Today I think that is nonexistent and doesn’t even cross their minds.

[usagre]

@Vivo. I agree about the revenue issue. Honestly I can’t understand why there isn’t more generated considering how popular the sport is on the Continent. I have no suggestion on how to increase it.
I would like to know if you have any.

[Jazz]

I don't disagree too much with what people are saying generally but it's not like the NBA is always the utopia that it is made out to be. Unless you have a role on a quality playoff team, I'm not sure it's better to be playing there than on a Euroleague contender. I can understand why someone like Spanoulis chose the path he did versus spending ten years in the NBA and maybe having a couple of playoff appearances to show for it. But yes, that is setting aside financial considerations and any talented European player should be looking to test themselves in the best league.

I know Teodosic went over there far far too late but business and politics meant he never got a chance in his second season with the Clippers. And let's not pretend Europeans aren't still sometimes perceived differently to American players.

[Tevfik1907]

This was a reply to to Tefvik who asked "How many former NBA players were playing in EL before 2000? And how many former NBA players are playing on the EL now? It's mutual." to prove that the EL before 2003 was easier. And I simply gave you the biggest NBA star who has ever played in Europe, without even mentioning the likes of Tarpley, Byron Scott (3x NBA champion as a starter) McAdoo, Xavier McDaniel and more. We are talking about all-stars, champions and MVPs that came over from the NBA, not 12th players with 10mpg.

I mean it is fine if you started watching European Basketball around 2010 just don't try to change the facts about the level of the league and how many European AND American stars were playing in Europe in the 1990s.

Allen Iverson is the biggest NBA star who ever played in Europe, not Dominique Wilkins. But AI didn't play well enough to be known.

Before 2000, it was nearly impossible to gather a 5 from the former nba players, now the teams can easily do that. If an NBA player like Jason Thompson comes to Europe before 2000s, he would be one of the main players of the league, now he even fails to play in Fenerbahçe, European basketball's level has increased massively since back then.

Udoh as an nba player came to us, and he still needed to increase his level as a player, otherwise he couldn't play in our team. And Bogdanovic gets the highest nba rookie contract ever after playing in our team.

Look what your coach Pitino is saying about the F4 level teams, look what he said about us, compared to GSW. And Doncic even said it's easier to score in NBA, in comparison with Europe. European Basketball's level has increased a lot since 2000s.

[Killer Bob]

Allen Iverson is the biggest NBA star who ever played in Europe, not Dominique Wilkins. But AI didn't play well enough to be known.

Before 2000, it was nearly impossible to gather a 5 from the former nba players, now the teams can easily do that. If an NBA player like Jason Thompson comes to Europe before 2000s, he would be one of the main players of the league, now he even fails to play in Fenerbahçe, European basketball's level has increased massively since back then.

Udoh as an nba player came to us, and he still needed to increase his level as a player, otherwise he couldn't play in our team. And Bogdanovic gets the highest nba rookie contract ever after playing in our team.

Look what your coach Pitino is saying about the F4 level teams, look what he said about us, compared to GSW. And Doncic even said it's easier to score in NBA, in comparison with Europe. European Basketball's level has increased a lot since 2000s.

Is easier to score because of different rules and bigger courts. Not because level of Euroleague is good. Nba increased number of players with 2 way contracts. 60 players more in Nba. Americans, who has still hope to play in Nba, rather choose D-league. When players like Spanoulis, Llull, Nando, Shved...is done, there will be no stars in Europe, just players, who are not good enough to play in Nba. Americans, who are here are more or less a joke.

[Mindozas]

Allen Iverson is the biggest NBA star who ever played in Europe, not Dominique Wilkins. But AI didn't play well enough to be known.

Before 2000, it was nearly impossible to gather a 5 from the former nba players, now the teams can easily do that. If an NBA player like Jason Thompson comes to Europe before 2000s, he would be one of the main players of the league, now he even fails to play in Fenerbahçe, European basketball's level has increased massively since back then.

Udoh as an nba player came to us, and he still needed to increase his level as a player, otherwise he couldn't play in our team. And Bogdanovic gets the highest nba rookie contract ever after playing in our team.

Look what your coach Pitino is saying about the F4 level teams, look what he said about us, compared to GSW. And Doncic even said it's easier to score in NBA, in comparison with Europe. European Basketball's level has increased a lot since 2000s.

You are absolutely confusing things. It's obvious that basketball moved forward compared to 20 years ago or more, not just in Europe, in whole world. It's more professional, more money involved, more practicing, players are physically superior, but it's just cause facilities are much better, conditions are much better, sports medicine moved forward big time. But we are talking about talent. Give such conditions to players of 90s and you would get so much better players than they were and than some freaking Thompson, who even under current ones can't establish himself in Europe and he would be lost in 90s, nobody would even consider him. We had so much more talented guys here, let alone USA. As already have been noted - nowadays we are losing lot of talent to USA, now even China appeared. Open boarders, globalization. Back in the days with only few exceptions, we had all the international elite here, and overall international basketball scene was filled with talent. It's just laughable to compare top players from nowadays EL and let's say from 15 years ago, talent level is incomparable.

[Tevfik1907]

Is easier to score because of different rules and bigger courts. Not because level of Euroleague is good. Nba increased number of players with 2 way contracts. 60 players more in Nba. Americans, who has still hope to play in Nba, rather choose D-league. When players like Spanoulis, Llull, Nando, Shved...is done, there will be no stars in Europe, just players, who are not good enough to play in Nba. Americans, who are here are more or less a joke.

Rules and the length of court is one reason, not the only reason. Euroleague level is of course good, and defensively enough to slow down a player like Doncic who scores 20 pts average on NBA in his first season. Pitino wouldn't compare us to the NBA teams otherwise.

There will be always players like Doncic or Bogdanovic, and if they are smart, and they are smart, they will play a couple of years in Europe before going to NBA, so here is your star players in Europe.

Even Dallas's owner Cuban said Europe is better when it comes to raising basketball players, and you're saying Europe is done.

https://www.complex.com/sports/2018/12/mark-cuban-says-american-players-only-know-how-to-taunt-and-put-together-mixtapes

''It is important because you’re used to people being older than you but I think he just learned how to play basketball and that’s the biggest gift. When you’re gifted as he is and you actually learn to play the game. If you look at the basketball education of kids starting at 11-years old in Europe and particularly Slovenia which is basketball oriented.

If we took our best kids and seven years before they are McDonald’s all-American, we sent them over to Slovenia to get an education, the league would be a thousand times better. They just learn how to play basketball while our guys learn how to taunt and put together mixtapes''

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/826037/rick-pitino-i-would-like-to-throw-myself-to-marmara-sea/

“They wouldn’t be able to play the team defense they are playing in the NBA. They are shooting the ball better than all NBA teams, except the Golden State Warriors. When you think about it, their passes and shots are better than a lot of NBA teams. I don’t know if they would be able to play in the NBA, because the spacing is different. The game is different in the NBA and the EuroLeague. The rules are also different,” said the 66-year old head coach.''

One of them is an NBA team owner, and the other one is a former NBA team coach.

You're just bullshitting on Europe because you don't like Fenerbahçe since we're at the top now, we all know that.


---------

You are absolutely confusing things. It's obvious that basketball moved forward compared to 20 years ago or more, not just in Europe, in whole world. It's more professional, more money involved, more practicing, players are physically superior, but it's just cause facilities are much better, conditions are much better, sports medicine moved forward big time. But we are talking about talent. Give such conditions to players of 90s and you would get so much better players than they were and than some freaking Thompson, who even under current ones can't establish himself in Europe and he would be lost in 90s, nobody would even consider him. We had so much more talented guys here, let alone USA. As already have been noted - nowadays we are losing lot of talent to USA, now even China appeared. Open boarders, globalization. Back in the days with only few exceptions, we had all the international elite here, and overall international basketball scene was filled with talent. It's just laughable to compare top players from nowadays EL and let's say from 15 years ago, talent level is incomparable.

As you admitted, basketball improved a lot in recent years. The quality of the players also improved, they know the basketball better, we've more qualified players on europe in comparison with before 2000s europe.

Some players were failing to go NBA back then, but in those days the majority of the players weren't as good as they are now, the talent that you're talking about were playing against the weak and less qualified players.

We've also more former nba players on the league, and people don't even care if a player actually played in nba or not anymore, they still need to improve themselves if they want to play in Euroleague. We've also many young talents, and they are playing in Europe if they want to improve themselves, like Doncic and Bogdanovic did, there will be more players like that in the near future.

[Killer Bob]

Luka left with 19, the earliest possible. No other 18 years kid has even minimal playing time with that age. Luka was an exception, there won’t be new Luka in next 20 years. You have something around 60 international players in this years draft. It’s obvious players want to go in Nba as soon as possible.

Vesely as prime candidate for MVP cannot be even a benchwarmer in Nba. Similarly Udoh.

Cuban doesn’t know a shit about European basketball. Pitino is just nice. And if you believe to compare Euroleague with NCAA is a compliment, it isn’t.