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Thread: WC 2019 Power Rankings

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    This reply is partly directed at Mojo, and mainly to Terroizer, mainly to do with the assessments of players and leagues.
    Well, finally I have a time for a proper reply

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    What many, many people in Australia, Europe and the Americas fail to understand is that player's roles evolve through time, and their performance in one league, club, international competition or context is not necessarily indicative of what they will produce in others.
    If this is (at least partially) directed at me, then maybe you actually misunderstood me. I totally agree with you about this. Coach's trust, natural evolving, comfortable surroundings - all these are the factors which can force the same player to make a steep upwards trajectory in the quality of his playing (and with the lack of thepositive situation in these factors downwards slope is highly possible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    So for example, some dickhead US writer disparaged the NBL seeing that Isaac Humphries was the 2017/18 NBL rookie of the year after playing 10 minutes per game at Kentucky, yet he received minutes on the worst team on the league (Sydney Kings), he was a bare bones 19 years old in his sophomore season at Kentucky and his game and body have evolved to the extent that he saw a ten day contract for Atlanta.
    Word, man. It's so much true. It's often when you'll see people arguing how much European basketball is inferior to NBA because many of the dominant players here (like de Colo or Tavares) failed in NBA but somehow they don't see the hard facts that Kristaps Porzingis instantly played during his rookie NBA season in a much more productive manner than he ever did for Sevilla and that future "NBA star" Bricky was actually playing worse and worse in the last four years before his switch to NBA as clear signs of NBA's inferior quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    I know about and watched Joe Ingles at Barca/Tel Aviv (maybe a dozen times in full games?), where his statistics varied from DNP/CD to bench minutes, to at times obtaining Euroleague votes. His emergence in Utah was for defence primarily as a foil to Hayward, and he was one of the very few players in the NBA who a quality coach (Snyder) told to shoot more because the offence breaks down if you pass up semi open shots and only play as a glue guy making hockey assists. His work with Zak Guthrie also tightened up his shooting release, but I don't have a problem with believing an Australian player reaches his peak around 30 years old, because our system of both junior and NBL development in initial phases means it is a longer path to the magical 10 000 hours of excellence Malcolm Gladwell waffles on about.
    Dunno, man. I remember Ingles all too well back in his European days. It may surprise you but I liked him very much. I mean, he was such a scrappy, clumsy, bumbling player who never exceled in any given aspect of the game of basketball. But he tried so much, he was such a hard-working, diligent guy, so tenacious, so stubborn in learning how to carve a decent niche for himself. So to see a player completely devoid of any basketball finesse to prosper on the highest European level was heart-warming. Yet him evolving a NBA semi-star is still a riddle for aeons. Yep, it's true that I rarely can force myself to watch a full NBA game yet every now and then I watch a bit here and a glimpse there. So from what I've witnessed, I see the same Jingles, only less mobile, less zealous and assidious (you can't play that hard and passionately each time during a 84 games regular season), but clearly more confident and with a somewhat more slick shooting mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Similarly, Patty Mills had to overcome career threatening injuries in the early parts of his pro career, and while obviously still streaky, he has added moving without the ball, a mid range pull up and the ability to run some pick and pop action to his game when he isn't firing from the land of plenty. His never was and never will be a floor general, but Popovic loves him for his locker room presence and he has publicly praised him for his ability to get the defence organised, his energy, getting the team into offensive sets, basic things that a lot of players at his level have no interest doing. As it is, he has probably reached his ceiling as a player, but he was outstanding in Rio and he has learned to score more efficiently over time in FIBA competition.
    I totally agree with your assessment of Patty's advantages but still he suffers from the same deficiencies. He's often ballhoging (especially playing for Aussies), his shot selection is regularly very questionable and it can become completely insane once he in a mood to win it all by himself (also happens more often whe he plays for Boomers) and generally he often comes with infuriatingly retarded decisions when choosing proper offensive scheme (running the floor with the ball like Usain Bolt on dope when the team needs a methodic, properly organized offense and hogging the ball stagnantly when you need to stretch a shaky opponents defense with a good ball movement). Also in any given evening he can try to outshine (sometimes successfully) Milos Teodosic as an ultimate turnover king. Also he's less fast now as the age catches up with his enviable speed. I mean, he's a good player nevertheless as everything you wrote is also true but his performance can be either blessing or curse for his team and with Patty you can never guess which of these options will come to life this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Matthew Dellavedova is an elite playmaker, that Australia lacked when Shane Heal bricked us out of a medal in 2000, overall providing a good assist/turnover ratio, hockey assists, a high 30s three points shooter in addition to intangibles/hard screens etc, plays borderline dirty blah, blah, blah. These things hold true especially in FIBA ball, where he is more than a hustle player.
    I saw him playing recently and frankly I was in awe how much he degraded. Maybe, it was a couple of bad evenings for him but somehow I doubt that. I remeber him in his college days and back then I thought that he's a player perfectly cut for Europe (not for the teams of Real Madrid caliber and not even for Valencia, but for some solid teams like GranCa). Not an insanely individually talented player but someone who reads the game, organizes offense, plays hard, excels in defensive intensity and can decently shoot with his feet set. I was sure that even if he attempts to jump to NBA, then it will be an easy and generally painless failure. It turned out I was wrong.

    But now he's not even that good at defense. And his shot looked just plain bad, adding another layer of incompetence to his dubious performance as a floor general. I guess, you still can use him for a limited playing time as some sort of ane 'energizer' off the bench who also intimidates backcourt leaders of opposing team with his pesky and often dirty defense. But that's all. Maybe, I am wrong but from what I've seen he looks more like a sloppy, talentless, slow-thinking and slow-moving hack barely reminding of a promising, if raw and hot-headed young player he was when playing for Gaels. It seems that NBA made him much, much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Baynes too, has added range to his game, while being an elite per minute rebounder and rim protector (ask Stevens, Stan Van Gundy etc).
    He's so slow, heavy-footed and rusty these days. Yep, he added range (the only thing which got better for him... yet he already hit long two-point jumpers in his early days in Europe) and now can fool "traditional centers" with ocassional three-pointers (but his shooting mechaincs is so sluggish that this can only be used if there is noone in a 4 meters radius of him to close out) but other than that... phew, he's bad. The only thing he really excels in nowadays is his (in)famous push-and-shove tactics in offense when he runs straight to the basket (facing it), trying to push his opponent out of his way with both hands. I wonder where does he get some blocked shots in his stats since it looks that he jumps so low that he barely can dunk. Rebounding numbers are understandable in NBA - most of the time there's noone contesting those after all these iso-finishing fadeaway jumpshots NBA is so famous of. And I remember this guy as an agile and really athletic youngster who exceled in pnr-focused plays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Most NBA teams would want both on their team in limited roles
    Dunno, maybe you're right but I don't think it tells a lot about their objective worth, especially in FIBA basketball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    but I think I have made my point about changing roles, evolving players, systems, the effect of refereeing, having the full confidence of coaches etc....
    In fact, I totally agree with you on that. And your Torrey Craig example is really a fitting one. PJ Tucker's career path is also illustrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Agree that Broekhoff and lock down defender, but injury plagued Dante Exum will be missed in the short term.
    Dunno about current Exum's form, especially after all these injuries, but his struggles in NBA is some sort of a mystery to me. I thought that if he adds some muscle and becomes simply long instead of lanky, he would dominate there, even despite being a non-shooter. Not a player I truly adore but I thought that he will encounter no problems in adapting to NBA and even progressing his game there. I haven't seen much of his playing as of lately but somehow something went wrong... and I'm not talking only about injuries.

    I also totally agree with you that getting into FIBA Asia is highly beneficial to local basketball and national team system. The level of opposition is low in Asia (joining South America would be better for Australia from this point of view) but the experience your players gain from it is much more valuable than your eternal duels with Kiwis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    4. One reason why I suspect Australian basketball is respected by in-the-know people stateside is that increasing Australian influence in NBA circles.
    For me, it's a dubious advantage. Talking about European coaches, I can say that generally those who go there are either bad or are in a stage of extremely rapid decline. It seems that NBA catches up on European coaches once they become totally useless in Europe. For example, Messina was completely atrocious since 2008 for any team he coached (Real Madrid, CSKA or Italian NT) but his NBA career seems to be on the rise. And the same is true for Scariolo who completely 'lost it' once 2000s morphed into 2010s. And for Spahija also. Blatt is a more complicated example but generally now his coaching looks worse than it was before his NBA stint. So NBA is a weird world and while close familiarity with their standards of everyday organization, training facilities, different equipment, 'advanced stats' usage and similar stuff can be indeed useful, I question how much progress comes from coaching or even players interchange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    A final thing to mention to Terrorizer is the relative quality of leagues. I doubt that European leagues are many times better than the NBL by judging results. So, vs NBA teams in the US, NBL teams have run close a few times in two years only, have no doubt that they will eventually break through. As it is, only four Euroleague teams (CSKA *2, Fenerbache, Maccabi Tel Aviv v Toronto in 2006) have won in North America. That was also reflected in 1995 McDonalds Open, 1981 World Club Championship etc for NBL v Euro champion. There is still a way to go, so while the ACB have contributed nearly 40 players to the NBA in legitimate two way exchange, the number of NBL to NBA players is growing, and I don't think it is a monumental increase in quality over the last few years, simply Australian clubs, officials and players creating links, while streaming means the NBA can follow games and prospects here without the time of cost of always flying out personnel.
    Exhibition games are generally useless and sadly there is no meaningful competition where NBL and European teams can face each other (or, at least, the same competition). The only two things we can realistically compare is the quality of the players pool and the quality of the game itself (both are very subjective matters). I rarely watch NBL games (time difference also plays a role and, truth to be said, a lack of true interest is also involved) but the quality of players is moving upwards and this especially concerns foreign players (read, US players). Also it seems that your domestic league moves in a right direction in matters like organization, attractiveness to fans and media and smart PR moves.

    Yet if we mention "European leagues", it is too wide of a description. These leagues are very different. Some are clearly worse than Australian one (Portuguese or Danish, for example), some are clearly better (ACB or VTB). Judging by players pool (and in- and out-flows of players between Australia and Europe which happen often gives a valuable perspective), I'll put Australia as an upper-middle league in Europe. Certainly above the likes of Poland or Romania but only slightly above Belgium (which progressed a lot recently, Belgian team played in BCL Final Four this year) and slightly below Greece, not to talk about France/Germany/Italy/Turkey/Russia/Spain which are all clearly better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    The major reason there are relatively few Australians in Europe atm is that the NBL is now much better managed over the last five years or so under Larry Kestleman, in what is effectively a takeover strategy. Previously only my Perth Wildcats were profitable, with the community owned Cairns Taipans breaking even and NZ Breakers on good ground generally, but then NZ owners Paul and Liz Blackwell tipping in $1NZ million for the Breakers junior academy, run along the lines of the AIS College of Excellence or a major European set up. Now, Sydney and NZ have big time owners and Adelaide have upgraded to a 10 000 or so tennis arena, leaving only the league run/Lemanis coached Brisbane Bullets playing out of a small (3 500 or so) stadium while they seek a longer term solution with a magnate of some sort.
    The fact that clubs are moving to profitability while not downgrading the level of competition is great. In Europe most of the team sports is deficit-generating. And this even includes the most popular sports here which is soccer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Consequently, the majority of those Australian players mentioned above are still active in the NBL- Newley, Barlow, Jawai, Ogilvy, Kickert, with the short season, upgraded pay structure and ability to freelance post NBL season in Europe, Puerto Rico or Asia topping up their earnings. All except Ogilvy are still decent, simply meaning the Australian talent has taken a big leap forward and these players are no longer considered for (full) national team selection.
    Well, improved status of local league is only one part of this "consequently" implication. I mean, Leandrinho Barbosa and Anderson Varejao are also playing in local NBB league now but that's not exactly because that league is on par with NBA these days but because they aren't exactly sought after by NBA teams. All the guys we discuss here had some good stints in Europe (short as in Ogilvy's case or long as in Newley's one) but one thing that unites them is that before moving back to their native land all of them gradually lost their status here in Europe. You can check their stats but every one of them either went from a stronger league to a weaker one (like Kickert from Spain - where he failed - to Poland to Ukraine) or got their stats (and game quality also) worsening (Newley in his late GranCa stage). It's not that they came (back) to NBL when their European careers were on the rise. Quite contrary, all of them were in decline before this move and most were able to rejuvenate their careers in NBL which isn't very mush indicative of intrinsic quality of this league. And, most probably, the fact that these players are no longer considered as NT material has something to do with their age. I mean, Barlow is 35 y.o., Newley is 34 y.o., even Jawai is 32 y.o. (and weighs 35 kgs too many). Look, Monya and Vyal'tsev are also not considered for Russian NT right now but if they were 5-7 years younger, they most probably would make the cut.

    To get things straight, I'm not trying to disparage NBL, most probably, it's one of the best non-European professional basketball league, alongside with the likes of Puerto-Rico and Argentina, and I'm glad to see it on the rise. But I suspect that it is still far behind top European leagues. And I'm totally sure that playing for top leagues in Europe would be hugely beneficial for the best Australian players (not for Ben Simmons though, he's where he belongs to, since he is an NBA type of player).

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Terrorizer, you made me laugh when you compared the NBA to a Broadway musical. I always compared it to the WWE- some years before Jayson Williams made that comparison in Loose Balls!
    I've got a whole bunch of NBA comparisons - some of them made some buzz on these boards many years ago

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    You mentioned Matty Nielsen and Aleks Maric. Nielsen is very highly regarded for his tactical brain worlwide, having served an internship at San Antonio after hanging up his boots in 2014/15. He returned there periodically, even coaching their summer league team. He was a Perth assistant, recently leaving while seeking a position somewhere in the US.
    Matty Nielsen finished his career in my hometown club And despite the age catching up with him (his best years were in Lieutuvos Rytas and, especially, Valencia) he was very useful in a limited playing time he was on court. Also for a guy who was a perfect epitome of basketball grit, he was such a smart one, he read the game likefew PGs can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    The development in Australian coaching ranks sometimes gets ignored, but considering we have Nielsen, CJ Bruton, Shawn Dennis, out of contract/out of a job Rob Beveridge not employed in Australia, but having extensive coaching/playing experience overseas, that can only be a positive.
    Oh, I remeber CJ as a player, by the way
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    As for Maric, probably no other player anywhere comes close to polarising opinion among (true) fans because he was the ultimate system player, good in pick and roll situations, good finisher from dump offs, good rebounder........ Hopeless on the block or if the first option of a team. Serbia actually recruited him after his 2010 season at Partizan then he proceeded to be one of the most maligned Australian players ever under Brett Brown (on forums anyway). I saw a very limited amount of him during this time, so I think there was truth both ways in the coach good/player bad or player bad/coach good polemic, although not everything could be ran to Alek's strengths.
    Yeah, I remember all the drama with the Serbian NT recrutiment Trust me, in his best times he was a terrific pick-n-roll player. Basically, he was close to a one-trick pony (with some not too rare occurences of interesting back-to-basket moves here and there rounding up his offensive game) and for a big guy he was slightly anachrosnistic even for those times but his pick-n-roll efificiency in a team which used him right was off-the-charts. I liked him, even if he looked somewhat of a headcase

    Quote Originally Posted by Roofman View Post
    Regarding young talent coming through, I have followed Dejan Vasiljevic somewhat since he has been at University of Miami. He is a decent prospect, a shooter with some ability to create his own shot, and while possessing some playmaking skills, in the old days would have been considered a shooting guard in a point guard's body. Bogut rates him highly, will be interesting to see if he can crack the NBA after his senior year at Miami, I am certain that he will get a long look in future times, maybe when 27-30, but unless they go deep in the NCAA tournament and he wows NBA scouts/camps, won't be an immediate NBA player (Jack White and Noi at Texas Christian are probably similar, don't know enough about these guys because I haven't seen them in full games).
    Somehow I thought that he graduated last year and was surprised his surname springing up in NCAA statsheets this winter. I haven't seen Miami games this season (if I recall it right, this season was bad for them), so don't really know how he's looking right now. And, yes, I forgot that it was Greenwood who changed to AFL, now I remember reading about this case some years ago. Well, it's somewhat surprising given the fact that his built and physique weren't indicative of such a move (if I'm not mistaken Aussie football is similar to softened rugby or something like that?). And I remember that Drmic played locally. My question was purely rhetorical though (English clearly isn't my native language, so misunderstanding is my fault) I was not intending to ask "where are they now" question (though your answer is totally welcome ) but my point was just to ruminate on how players who should be considered for NT or at the very least its extended roster, if we are to project from the promise they showed in the youth categories, somehow fail to make this "big next step" for a variety of reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    As I said before Russia doesnt stand a chance against the current turkish roster but Russia had luck to be "elected" in group B in the wc so quarterfinals are achievable now.
    Never mind the team you are rooting for, you better not to write stuff like this. A team like Belgium definitely stands a chance against the current Turkish roster... and even against the current Spanish roster, though a significantly slimmer one. It's a modern basketball where difference in quality becomes much less recognizable than it was. And when you write down an ideal roster for "your team" with guard spots occupied by Balbay, Ozmirzak, Wilbekin and Mahmutoglu, then this sort of sentiment certainly seems too brash and cocky.

    P.S. You are certainly not very knowledgeable about Russian basketball ("generation of Vorontsevich and Kulagin" is like "generation of Kerem Tunceri and Baris Ermis", one of these guys is 5 years older than the other). And our main problems are with bigs, especially on C position, since backcourt is much more packed, though there are some awful injuries this spring (Khvostov and Strebkov out of the game for roughly half a year each). Without injuries, our potential backcourt options are Kulagin the Elder, Shved, Fridzon, Khvostov, Strebkov, Voronov, Kolesnikov, Baburin, Ponkrashov and younger guys like Denis Zakharov, Ivan Ukhov and Misha Kulagin. Well, it's not "true depth" a la France but it's not that bad either (certainly better than Turkey).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    As I said before Russia doesnt stand a chance against the current turkish roster but Russia had luck to be "elected" in group B in the wc so quarterfinals are achievable now.
    Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

    Balbay - Özmizrak
    Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
    Osman - Korkmaz
    Ilyasova - Gecim
    Semih - Yurtseven

    here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.

    by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorizer View Post
    Other than that, who are the main candidates for your national team's roster? Wilbekin/Balbay/Sipahi (I hope there are no guys like Sinan Guler anymore?) - Korkmaz/Mahmutoglu/Koksal - Osman/Gecim - M-me Ilyasova (whose age, like that of any grand dame, remains clouded in mystery)/Turen - Erden/Yurtseven (?)/Sanli. Well, it's hardly a powerhouse's roster. There are zero extra-class players here (no, one stat-wise good season in one of the worst NBA teams doesn't make Cedi a player of this caliber) and most of these players are having big trouble with securing playing time in the games that matter. And some of them are also very inexperienced and raw.
    for the international level, Ilyasova used to be that player. cannot predict how he'll fare now with his 35 years of age (hardly a mystery by now). Osman may break out, he was not just a stat-sheet filler in the Cavs, he's actually growing. well. but yes, he's not the extra class, which we do not have any.
    Last edited by Levenspiel; 06-02-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

    Balbay - Özmizrak
    Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
    Osman - Korkmaz
    Ilyasova - Gecim
    Semih - Yurtseven

    here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.

    by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.


    for the international level, Ilyasova used to be that player. cannot predict how he'll fare now with his 35 years of age (hardly a mystery by now). Osman may break out, he was not just a stat-sheet filler in the Cavs, he's actually growing. well. but yes, he's not the extra class, which we do not have any.
    I think my position is some where between you two. We are not too great but not too bad either. We played Russia without Ilyasova Last time and the game was a thriller. Cedi showed he can carry a team in Europe by himself Last time. Adding Ilyasova and Wilbekin to that roster with better Cedi and Furkan carries us a tier above. But most of our players are really inconsistent. We need Melih to be able to shoot over 40% and Semih to be strong under the rim. I believe in Semih more than I believe in Melih

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    Never mind the team you are rooting for, you better not to write stuff like this. A team like Belgium definitely stands a chance against the current Turkish roster... and even against the current Spanish roster, though a significantly slimmer one. It's a modern basketball where difference in quality becomes much less recognizable than it was. And when you write down an ideal roster for "your team" with guard spots occupied by Balbay, Ozmirzak, Wilbekin and Mahmutoglu, then this sort of sentiment certainly seems too brash and cocky.
    Well then we agree on disagree. So except USA all teams can defeat the other on a good day, even though it is in 4 of 100 games. In that point I agree with you. In everything else dont get me wrong... I think you write nonsense. We use a point forward named Osman as playmaker by the way.

    Well since both teams wont face each other its just speculation and Russia as I said has too few prospects to substitute the few player on the court. So I am pretty sure that Russia wont even be mentionable next Eurobasket.

    The only Player that I respect on Russian side is Shved.
    Last edited by Toruko; 06-02-2019 at 10:09 PM.

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    by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.
    by the way, the experience shows that Germany will somehow beat our NT with a village roster.
    Well in 2015 Turkey defeated Germany in Berlin with a much weaker roster. I was there. Six, seven month ago Turkey played Germany in the VTG Supercup in Hamburg. I was there. Turkey defeated a respectable German roster with Schröder, Kleber, Zirbes etc without braking a sweat and the Germans gave everything.



    So I really dont know why you guys overvalue teams like Germany or Russia. Many teams are carried of 2 or 3 good guys at max. We have with Korkmaz, Osman, Ilyasova and Wilbekin four scorer who can carry this team scoringwise. I understand it Furkan, Cedi etc didnt show up this season but quality is still there. Being humble is good but dont be afraid of teams like Russia or Germany. We are definitely far better.

    I think my position is some where between you two. We are not too great but not too bad either. We played Russia without Ilyasova Last time and the game was a thriller. Cedi showed he can carry a team in Europe by himself Last time. Adding Ilyasova and Wilbekin to that roster with better Cedi and Furkan carries us a tier above. But most of our players are really inconsistent. We need Melih to be able to shoot over 40% and Semih to be strong under the rim. I believe in Semih more than I believe in Melih
    I am with you in most of what you have written but i dont think that Melih will get much playtime, although he seems to be in shape. I am also not really worried about other the performances of player like Korkmaz or Osman. Actually, Turkey is really weak under the rim. Especially if Yurt7 doesnt come, it will force turkey to play with Sertac Sanli who is a catastrophy.

    Anyway the goal is clear. Beat Japan and the Czechs in the first round and probably Montenegro and Greece in the second. Thats the max that is achievable this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    The problems are the same. The Fiba court is smaller and the teams will defend unlike in the nba. If you give giannis enough space he will jump above your head and dunk but if you dont let him speed up he is a horrible mid ranger. Giannis will of course have and impact but in order to use the advantages of Giannis you must have shooter around him but thats the problem of greece. Its probably the worst shooting team or lets say one of the in the tournament. With a non shooter like calathes you can double giannis at any time without having any fears from outside. Sloukas is just consistent in mid range or from the top and in addition there is no consistent shooter maybe except dorsey.
    To double team Giannis is not enough. He is being double teamed in the NBA in every game. Plays are being prepared only to stop him. Every Greek player will have more space because of him. And at the end of the day they are key players for top EL teams. Not to mention the amount of rebounds and blocks Greece will have on the defensive end. Consider the defensive value of someone like Giannis on a Greek team. He could very well be the missing link. Besides, if Greece lacks some offensive talent as some assume, then they will defend like crazy. A far more suiting style for a team like Greece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    To double team Giannis is not enough. He is being double teamed in the NBA in every game. Plays are being prepared only to stop him. Every Greek player will have more space because of him. And at the end of the day they are key players for top EL teams. Not to mention the amount of rebounds and blocks Greece will have on the defensive end. Consider the defensive value of someone like Giannis on a Greek team. He could very well be the missing link. Besides, if Greece lacks some offensive talent as some assume, then they will defend like crazy. A far more suiting style for a team like Greece.
    Its always the same how you stop a non-shooting guy. Form a wall in the paint and force him to shoot. The key is not if Giannis has an impact or not. It doesnt matter if he scores 30 points or not. As long as the other player cant get a rithm there will be no problem. But he will be a big problem on the defensive end but i am not sure if he will give everything after such a tiring season.

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    Not sure where this confidence is coming from. It cannot really be coming from our roster, can it? I know you "explained" it above, I just cannot get my head around it.

    Balbay - Özmizrak
    Wilbekin - Mahmutoglu
    Osman - Korkmaz
    Ilyasova - Gecim
    Semih - Yurtseven

    here, Ozmizrak and Gecim are 1-level lower players than the rest with their incurable inconsistency (You said I didn't watch enough BSL games to know, which is fair, but I watched Ozmizrak in the EL and winced a lot. Gecim's stats are still mediocre: 8.1-3.2-3.4 with low FG% in BSL). Semih Erden played well last time, but he's another head case. We only have Osman, Wilbekin, Ilyasova, Korkmaz as decent players here, with Mahmutoglu's potential to light it up. that's far from making me optimistic.
    look, if you take Gecim for example... Banvit lost 2 of its scorers Moore and Neal and Gecim had to take over with Guys like Hazer and Atar. Of course they are skilled and talented but not ready to lift bsl level right now. Nobody said that Gecim is a scorer but he had to score. In the national Team his role will be totally different. 90% of the balls will be used by Wilbekin, Osman, Furkan and Ilyasova. He just has to create for others and he is great in that. In a team with better scorers he would have averaged at least 8 assists. Balbay just has to "take out" the playmaker like he always does and nails open 3 pointer.

    The other point is our playing style. We use Cedi Osman as point forward so he decides what to do on the court most of the time, sometimes, seldom, it is Korkmaz so we are blessed with wings who can ballhandle on a very high level

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    Latest reports indicate Kemba Walker is committed to the US team and James Harden and Anthony Davis are still likely to commit. Zion Williamson and Donovan Mitchell are also under consideration. This is all per Marc Stein.

    I had read a report previously that Kevin Love was interested in trying out for the team.

    Kyrie Irving had done an interview for FIBA’s website a while back that seemed to indicate some interest in participating but hard to say that means much.

    Besides Lebron confirming he wouldn’t participate there are already a number of players from the player pool unavailable due to injury... John Wall, Victor Oladipo, Paul George, Blake Griffin, perhaps Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant and Demarcus Cousins. I’m certainly not suggesting all or even any of these players would have been a part of the team but the injuries have thinned the pool out for sure. I’d be shocked if Kawhi Leonard decided to participate.

    All that said, it’s hard to count on the reliability of any reports until players are actually on the court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cagney View Post
    Latest reports indicate Kemba Walker is committed to the US team and James Harden and Anthony Davis are still likely to commit. Zion Williamson and Donovan Mitchell are also under consideration. This is all per Marc Stein.

    I had read a report previously that Kevin Love was interested in trying out for the team.

    Kyrie Irving had done an interview for FIBA’s website a while back that seemed to indicate some interest in participating but hard to say that means much.

    Besides Lebron confirming he wouldn’t participate there are already a number of players from the player pool unavailable due to injury... John Wall, Victor Oladipo, Paul George, Blake Griffin, perhaps Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant and Demarcus Cousins. I’m certainly not suggesting all or even any of these players would have been a part of the team but the injuries have thinned the pool out for sure. I’d be shocked if Kawhi Leonard decided to participate.

    All that said, it’s hard to count on the reliability of any reports until players are actually on the court.
    More names coming out for the USA training camp roster:
    https://www.espn.com/olympics/basket...sa-hoop-roster

    Damian Lillard
    CJ McCollum,
    James Harden
    Eric Gordon
    Jayson Tatum
    Donovan Mitchell
    Khris Middleton
    P.J. Tucker
    Kyle Kuzma
    Kevin Love
    LaMarcus Aldridge
    Anthony Davis
    Brook Lopez
    Andre Drummond

    and another tough-minded veteran, Denver's Paul Millsap, is also a possibility, league sources told ESPN.
    probably a few more to come to get it to 18 or so. didnt see Kemba Walker in this ESPN report but it was mentioned in others.

    That should be enough right there. Doubt anyone can touch a team with AD, Lillard, Harden with the right role players around them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo13 View Post
    More names coming out for the USA training camp roster:
    https://www.espn.com/olympics/basket...sa-hoop-roster

    Damian Lillard
    CJ McCollum,
    James Harden
    Eric Gordon
    Jayson Tatum
    Donovan Mitchell
    Khris Middleton
    P.J. Tucker
    Kyle Kuzma
    Kevin Love
    LaMarcus Aldridge
    Anthony Davis
    Brook Lopez
    Andre Drummond

    and another tough-minded veteran, Denver's Paul Millsap, is also a possibility, league sources told ESPN.
    probably a few more to come to get it to 18 or so. didnt see Kemba Walker in this ESPN report but it was mentioned in others.

    That should be enough right there. Doubt anyone can touch a team with AD, Lillard, Harden with the right role players around them.
    This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
    An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
    So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
    An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
    So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.
    Yeah a core of Dame, AD, and Harden is legit, just need the right amount of shooters/bangers to compliment them and they'll be the favorites no question.

    Something to keep an eye on, while not on the main 18 man roster. Zion's been invited to the US select team which will workout with the main team in training camp. https://twitter.com/thesteinline/sta...751687680?s=21
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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    This definitely looks reasonable and follows the precedent set in all other previous World Championship USA/NBA teams.
    An overall B level team USA just like ‘94, ‘06, ‘10 and ‘14. 2002 as an exception was more like a C level team.
    So B tier or level players sprinkled in with a couple of A level players is what it appears like.
    B-level team but enough to beat the rest of the world. Just like their G-League team that was enough to beat the rest of their continent.
    "If you can't beat them, join them." - kevin durant

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    Quote Originally Posted by ja.he View Post
    B-level team but enough to beat the rest of the world. Just like their G-League team that was enough to beat the rest of their continent.
    It’s definitely enough as was proven in past tournaments and they would be a heavy favorite. But it should also be pointed out that previously in ‘02-‘06 it is these type of teams that have tripped up and have been beaten. A level Olympic type USA rosters have been pretty much unbeatable historically.

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    If Harden falls of (pretty likely I believe) and say Lillard, this team is worse than I expected. FOA, really unimpressive centers. Can we call Drummond a dominant big? Not for USA standards, IMO. He's a shaky, unskilled big. A good, but not great center who stats pad in horrible team. Aside Davis, I'm not too sold on both Aldridge and Love. Plenty of mid range jumpshot in the tiny FIBA court? They're good, but not great again. At SF there's no single stud that stands out instantly. So except Harden and Lillard who both can win single handedly, and maybe overlooked super-talent in McCollum, I'm not too impressed. If there will be absences among those, I like Serbia's and maybe some other team's chances. What obviously is apparent, it's not a good defensive team for USA standards and even overall it may not even be the best defensive team. The backourt, except maybe Gordon, is rather horrid at D. Other positions are shaky, except that there's Davis as a defensive beast. With all that said, USA will win it again most likely, but I'm surprised overall. Not a scary USA NT, specially if one of 2 guards superstars won't show up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    If Harden falls of (pretty likely I believe) and say Lillard, this team is worse than I expected. FOA, really unimpressive centers. Can we call Drummond a dominant big? Not for USA standards, IMO. He's a shaky, unskilled big. A good, but not great center who stats pad in horrible team. Aside Davis, I'm not too sold on both Aldridge and Love. Plenty of mid range jumpshot in the tiny FIBA court? They're good, but not great again. At SF there's no single stud that stands out instantly. So except Harden and Lillard who both can win single handedly, and maybe overlooked super-talent in McCollum, I'm not too impressed. If there will be absences among those, I like Serbia's and maybe some other team's chances. What obviously is apparent, it's not a good defensive team for USA standards and even overall it may not even be the best defensive team. The backourt, except maybe Gordon, is rather horrid at D. Other positions are shaky, except that there's Davis as a defensive beast. With all that said, USA will win it again most likely, but I'm surprised overall. Not a scary USA NT, specially if one of 2 guards superstars won't show up.
    Note - Harrison Barnes has been added to the training camp roster along with Zion Williamson and Myles Turner.


    So why do you think James Harden is likely to "fall off". I see no indication of that whatsoever.

    There are a load of underrated guys here that don't normally get the spot light who are great players. You miss on mentioning Kemba Walker who has played in the shadow of Charlotte's small market and to many looks a better player than Kyrie Irving. McCollum and Lillard only seem to recently get the recognition they deserve but still under appreciated. Kevin Love has been a very solid role playerfor the USA in the past as a fairly decent 3Pt shooting PF who takes care of the glass. Brook Lopez has proven himself as an excellent 3PT shooting center (best in the NBA) who enjoys the role player role. His teammate Khris Middleton, although having a poor playoffs has been a chronically underappreciated two-way player in his career - an allstar level player and 2nd best player on the Bucks.
    Jayson Tatum and Donovan Mitchell bring some interesting dynamic youth. P.J. Tucker is a vastly underappreciated hard nosed role player who thrives doing the dirty work. I agree about Aldridge. Andre Drummond is likely there to be a situational C to help with big paint Cs like Jonas Valanciunas. And I agree on the lack of obvious NBA SFs - but don;t you think for FIBA guys like Brady Beal or Kris Middleton are easily SFs? Middleton is at 6'8 at least. There are all the tools here to make a great "Team". Not a mishmash of stars who all need the ball in their hands to succeed. There is one ultra-ball dominant star (Harden) with two other stars that can succeed in secondary roles (Davis, Lillard) and a host of elite role players, who can easily step up into a prominent role as needed.

    If Pop can pull these guys together into some form of co-cohesive unit - they will once again be unstoppable.

    What do you guys think as likely starters?


    Harden
    Lillard (Beal)?
    Middleton
    Love
    Davis


    By the way this team comprises 8 of the Top 20 most prolific three point shooters in the NBA (most made threes 2018/19 season) in:
    Harden
    Walker
    Lillard
    Beal
    Gordon
    Mitchell
    Middleton
    Lopez
    And Barnes is #21
    Last edited by mojo13; 06-07-2019 at 04:21 PM.

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    Something like this :

    Lillard / Kemba
    Beal. / Mitchell
    Harden / McCollum / Kuzma
    Love. / Middleton / Tatum
    Davis. / Aldridge

    If you want another big then Drummond in and Kuzma out.

    I still have some doubts about Anthony Davis and Zion Williamson participating.

  19. #119
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    Why would Dame or Harden fall off? Neither is hurt, and neither is in a contract situation or starting with a new team. It's not like either of these guys is new to Team USA either, so I wouldn't expect them to decommit at random.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dtown View Post
    Why would Dame or Harden fall off? Neither is hurt, and neither is in a contract situation or starting with a new team. It's not like either of these guys is new to Team USA either, so I wouldn't expect them to decommit at random.
    I agree. Harden and Lillard are probably 90% gonna participate. Zion and Anthony Davis are probably not in my opinion.
    I think Davis gets traded this summer and won’t play. If the Pelicans don’t trade him this summer then almost out of spite I think he will participate.

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