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Thread: Vesely is easily the worst center offensively

  1. #21
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    olympiacos: 18.93 Fener 18.53
    yes that's a huge difference...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Olympiacos averages more assists than Fener while scoring fewer points. It's not that Fener plays 'team basketball' resulting in more assisted baskets for everyone, Vesely included.
    It's that Vesely is useless and needs more assisted buckets.

    But good effort, nonetheless.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivo View Post
    It's idiotic to say not attempting bad shots is a bad trait for a player.
    But not being able to create good shots is...

  3. #23
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    i think you are a gala fan I thought I could hear this kinda stuff only from them. DD

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    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Shengelia can't even finish a great pass like this;



    Vesely,

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJk6PI2I0o

    But somehow Shengelia is a better scorer than Vesely
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    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Vesely is easily the worst WHAT??????

    Sad choice of a topic title, really.

    Not exciting, I can understand...
    Not my style, I can understand...
    Don’t think it is best, I can understand...

    But WORST?

    Really?


    Note: I understand the logic. Everybody is entitled to their opinions. I do not agree.

  6. #26
    Senior Member markkanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Vesely is easily the worst WHAT??????

    Sad choice of a topic title, really.

    Not exciting, I can understand...
    Not my style, I can understand...
    Don’t think it is best, I can understand...

    But WORST?

    Really?


    Note: I understand the logic. Everybody is entitled to their opinions. I do not agree.
    Agree. The right title should be: "Vesely isn't the best center offensively".

  7. #27
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    Vesely is clearly the best center in the league and he is the strongest candidate of mvp award right now. This pathetic guy has some butthurt due to Fener's ass-kicking at 2017 final. That is why he is claiming such a bull-shit opinion.

    Here some weakness of this bull-shit opinion

    1- getting assist / total points ratio only shows the percentage, not the total amount. Even if Vesely score more points than the others without feeding, his percentage could be higher and look worse. For instance if Vesely makes 5 amazing dunks with asists next game , according to this bull-shit opinion he will be worse player because his percentage will get higher. Finish the services well and be a worse player is not a smart conclusion lol

    2- Even tough being able to score without assist is a good aspect, there are many aspects to define qaulity, especially for center. Being a good finisher, making good defence, having a good court vision, awaraness, engine, energy, consistency etc. Vesely is very good at many aspects.

    3- Scoring with getting assist doesnt show that guy could not score without service. This can be team's or player's personal choice. Effiency is the main point at there. Vesely has low post game and mid-range shot but his team and he would rather pick %80 lay-up to %50 one-one play. Fener's game plan is based on tough defence and efficient offence. That is why Fener is the first at true shooting among the teams, and Vesely is secong among the players.

    4- Being a good finisher is also another important aspect. He is very good athlete and very good finisher. He could score with dunks and lay-ups at some position that most of others could not. Lets assume Milutinov and Vesely have same getting assist / total points ratio and the same situation happened and good service has come. Vesely finishes with dunk, but Milutinov misses the dunk. After this incident Vesely ratio will be higher but Milutinov ratio will be same. So Vesely will look worse player because his ratio is higher. This show how stupid this guy's opinion.

    This pathetic hater doesnt deserve to be taken seriosuly, but I have some free time and wasted.

  8. #28
    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canarian View Post
    Vesely is clearly the best center in the league and he is the strongest candidate of mvp award right now. This pathetic guy has some butthurt due to Fener's ass-kicking at 2017 final. That is why he is claiming such a bull-shit opinion.

    Here some weakness of this bull-shit opinion

    1- getting assist / total points ratio only shows the percentage, not the total amount. Even if Vesely score more points than the others without feeding, his percentage could be higher and look worse. For instance if Vesely makes 5 amazing dunks with asists next game , according to this bull-shit opinion he will be worse player because his percentage will get higher. Finish the services well and be a worse player is not a smart conclusion lol

    2- Even tough being able to score without assist is a good aspect, there are many aspects to define qaulity, especially for center. Being a good finisher, making good defence, having a good court vision, awaraness, engine, energy, consistency etc. Vesely is very good at many aspects.

    3- Scoring with getting assist doesnt show that guy could not score without service. This can be team's or player's personal choice. Effiency is the main point at there. Vesely has low post game and mid-range shot but his team and he would rather pick %80 lay-up to %50 one-one play. Fener's game plan is based on tough defence and efficient offence. That is why Fener is the first at true shooting among the teams, and Vesely is secong among the players.

    4- Being a good finisher is also another important aspect. He is very good athlete and very good finisher. He could score with dunks and lay-ups at some position that most of others could not. Lets assume Milutinov and Vesely have same getting assist / total points ratio and the same situation happened and good service has come. Vesely finishes with dunk, but Milutinov misses the dunk. After this incident Vesely ratio will be higher but Milutinov ratio will be same. So Vesely will look worse player because his ratio is higher. This show how stupid this guy's opinion.

    This pathetic hater doesnt deserve to be taken seriosuly, but I have some free time and wasted.
    I don't agree with the conclusion either but it is still an interesting stat which obviously as you say doesn't give the whole picture.

    Numbers never do. That doesn't make his attempt to indicate a relative area for Veselys improvement pathetic.

    If anything, it is true that he creates less for himself than Davies. Whether that makes him better or worse overall is impossible to judge firstly because they don't play for the same team but the first statement remains a fact.

    Don't get so angry, happy New year!
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  9. #29
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    Colorades, do not feed the troll.

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    This is what happens when you skip the methodology classes. There is a mismatch between the concept operationalized (the offensive quality of centers) and measurement methodology (playing isolation). Yes, for centers playing isolation is used to assses the offfensive quality of a player, its not irony. You would rather expect some combination of passing abilities + scoring abilities + usage of a player in the team plays while on the floor + (maybe) efficiency of playing isolation or you should make your generalizations contingent (such as Vesely is the worst offensive center among the best when it comes to playing isolation). But I guess the combination of these stats would not make Milutinov appear as better than Vesely so lets stick to the efficiency of playing isolation.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Imho Vesely is only great athlete. If that’s enough for being MVP, the standard of Euroleague is really all time low.
    previously known as Beno

  12. #32
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Imho Vesely is only great athlete. If that’s enough for being MVP, the standard of Euroleague is really all time low.
    Other 15 teams are fucking stupid for not bringing in a greater athlete from the States then... There should be hundreds of athletes better than Vesely all over the world, if that is his only quality.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by truant View Post
    This is what happens when you skip the methodology classes. There is a mismatch between the concept operationalized (the offensive quality of centers) and measurement methodology (playing isolation). Yes, for centers playing isolation is used to assses the offfensive quality of a player, its not irony. You would rather expect some combination of passing abilities + scoring abilities + usage of a player in the team plays while on the floor + (maybe) efficiency of playing isolation or you should make your generalizations contingent (such as Vesely is the worst offensive center among the best when it comes to playing isolation). But I guess the combination of these stats would not make Milutinov appear as better than Vesely so lets stick to the efficiency of playing isolation.
    This ^. That was what I meant when I questioned if a travesty of logic was the new norm in discussions here.
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  14. #34
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    Vesely will most probably be picked as the MVP this season
    But yea he’s not so good. It’s xause Everybody else is so bad

    Btw that’s what happens when you’re so good. You make everyone else look bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by truant View Post
    But I guess the combination of these stats would not make Milutinov appear as better than Vesely so lets stick to the efficiency of playing isolation.
    One, I don't think that according to this stat Milutinov appears much, if at all, better than Vesely. It's clear that Davies is much more of an offensive threat than most centers, others are close to one another and Vesely is a bit behind that second tier.

    Two, Milutinov has only just started developing some semblance of an offensive game and many times in the past I've called him useless. If he doesn't get 20-10 tonight against Lasme and Gist, I will be calling him useless again. So the idea that my goal for looking at this was to simply make Milutinov look better is rather odd. I just think that creating shots is an important part of the offence.

    Three, I don't care about Fener fans being up in arms and saying that efficiency is best, DeAndre Jordan is GOAT or whatever. Of course efficiency is best, teams should only shoot fast break uncontested layups, what a concept!
    The point is that team can't create super-efficient shots, ie assisted dunks, on every play, which is why you want your players to be able to make something out of nothing.
    Players that have a harder time doing that, like De Colo in the guard position or Vesely in the center position are also players with subpar F4 performances when compared to their usual standards. Is that a coincidence?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by kzav View Post
    I don't agree with the conclusion either but it is still an interesting stat which obviously as you say doesn't give the whole picture.

    Numbers never do. That doesn't make his attempt to indicate a relative area for Veselys improvement pathetic.

    If anything, it is true that he creates less for himself than Davies. Whether that makes him better or worse overall is impossible to judge firstly because they don't play for the same team but the first statement remains a fact.

    Don't get so angry, happy New year!
    This topic completely pathetic and only shows his butthurt.

    As i explained all weaknesses of this bull-shit opinion , only ratio means nothing. Vesely could score without getting assist but also score with asssisy more efficiently. He and Fener prefer to be more efficient. We are dominating the league for a raeason.

    Also he alreadyscored more points without service than some other top centers but according to this stupid opinion his ratio is highet and he is worse.

    According to him a player who has 300 points with 80 service is worse than a players 100 points 20 service. Becuse his ratio is higher. This is not data-based opiniom this is trolling. His ass still sore of Fener's kick

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Imho Vesely is only great athlete. If that’s enough for being MVP, the standard of Euroleague is really all time low.
    If this is so easy bring a high flyer and dominate the league genius.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Tevfik1907's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Imho Vesely is only great athlete. If that’s enough for being MVP, the standard of Euroleague is really all time low.
    I guess NBA is really low then.

    But let's not forget your great objective analysis, the day you said Vesely can't pass, he made 7 assists against Panathinaikos.
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  19. #39
    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    I guess NBA is really low then.

    But let's not forget your great objective analysis, the day you said Vesely can't pass, he made 7 assists against Panathinaikos.
    Some assists are not really assists though they way they are recorded but that is the way it is done for all, so fair.

    I don't think anyone says Vesely is a bad player so I don't get the frustration. Unless you all think Vesely has no weaknesses and is the best player ever.

    Bourousis is a far better player offensively and in ball distribution for instance.
    "Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." —George Raveling

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  20. #40
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    This statistics is great only for backcourt players from which is expected to make their own shoots and to share assists.
    Ratio assisted shoots/total point is problematic too because there are players that most of the points make from shooting for 3pt.

    More usefull parameter could be for instance assisted shoots/assists ratio, which show the exact involment of the player in the game.
    In that aspect Vesely is top player among centers in the EL.
    Guduric is very good too and that is one of the reasons for better performance of the whole team this season.

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