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Thread: Vesely is easily the worst center offensively

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    Default Vesely is easily the worst center offensively

    Worst among the best and on one very specific metric but still.

    I always though that waiting below the rim or on some corner for the other guys to draw help and then find you open is one of the lesser basketball skills. Without shot creators, there is no offence.
    But to what extent are people guilty of it?

    I just saw that overbasket recently added an assist chart which says to whom and by whom you gave or were given assists. Sadly, it doesn't clearly say how many of your points were assisted but just comparing the assists given to you and the points you scored should give an idea.


    These are the centers that have come up in 'who is the best' discussions:

    Vesely:74/208=35.58%
    Gudaitis:60/194=30.9%
    Ayon: 31/95=32.6%
    Davies: 65/231=28.1%
    Milutinov: 49/156=31.4%
    Poirier: 53/154=34.4%

    As expected, Vesely is the worst, depending the most on others (mainly Sloukas) finding him for an assisted basket. Davies is way ahead of everyone and is doing this while averaging the most points. He should comfortably and without question be All-Euroleague first team.
    To these numbers I can only add that knowing the number of uncontested off rebounds someone gets is also important. If a slasher draws help, misses and you make the easy putback with no one to stop you, that is basically an assist. Probably teams keep track of these things.


    Two big men known for creating their shot are:

    Printezis: 50/176=28.4%
    Shengelia: 37/190=19.5%

    Printezis is on the same level as Davies, Shengelia however has only been assisted 37 times this season, doing much better than any other tall. I guess the extent to which he needs to carry Baskonia is underrated.

    Looking at guards:

    James: 21/291=7.2%
    Sloukas: 17/148=11.5%
    Llull: 10/124=8.1%
    Campazzo: 13/146=8.9%
    De Colo: 32/203=15.8%
    Rodriguez: 15/141=10.6%
    Micic: 16/174=9.2%
    Shved: 25/202=12.4%
    Calathes: 18/166=10.8%
    Spanoulis: 7/173=4%

    The extent to which DeColo needs to play off of other people is obvious, which is a big part why he's overrated and can't deliver on demand, usually in crunch time. Shved also gets assisted quite a bit, especially for how much he seems to be handling the ball. One third of those assists are from Khimki's big men presumably passing to him after posting up for a 3 or a cut, but that element of their offence hasn't been as praised as it should.

    Sloukas is showing why, even if the starting pg on a good team, he still seems far from attaining a true star status, he's still not a 'give me the ball, I got this' player. And Spanoulis is of course a god among men, but everyone with half a brain knew that already.

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    Senior Member kzav's Avatar
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    Interesting, admittedly, although obviously it is part of the story but still an indication.

    What would be better would be to show the ratio between assists and baskets made; not points. This is because someone who shoots 3s consistently like Shved say and someone who doesn't could conceivable make the same number of baskets, but the point ratio would skew the effectiveness towards the guy who shoots 3s.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    I just saw that overbasket recently added an assist chart which says to whom and by whom you gave or were given assists. Sadly, it doesn't clearly say how many of your points were assisted but just comparing the assists given to you and the points you scored should give an idea.
    Sorry if I didn't get this. so this is assists/points. assuming centers mostly score 2-pointers & FTs (which also grants an assist in EL), their percentages should be about double per basket, right?

    This metric seems to measure the ability (or the need) of a player to create his own points. Here, I'm not surprised Vesely depends on his teammates more than others. One could argue this is because of Fener's system, which is partially true, but we all know Vesely is not the type to score by posting-up or his one-to-one plays under the basket, unlike Ayon or Gudaitis, or even Lauvergne for example. You can say his arsenal is limited, but it definitely doesn't make him the worst center offensively, as his efficiency in what he can do is very high. (this metric could be enhanced/calibrated by FG%).

    Quote Originally Posted by kzav View Post
    What would be better would be to show the ratio between assists and baskets made; not points. This is because someone who shoots 3s consistently like Shved say and someone who doesn't could conceivable make the same number of baskets, but the point ratio would skew the effectiveness towards the guy who shoots 3s.
    Good point. Difference might be significant. There
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    as his efficiency in what he can do is very high.
    Everyone's efficiency is high on assisted dunks. DeAndre Jordan is the all-time leader in fg% in the NBA.

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    Stats dont mean a shit when it's players like Vesely. If his offense is so bad, just stop him
    Btw, he is a basketball player, not a tennis player. He scores when it's needed, defends when it's needed and does everything else when it's needed. His lack of concentration and needless aggressiveness is gone and free throws are ok this year, he's the perfect guy.

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    this is hilarious.
    if you play as a team you naturally get more points with assists.

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    If this thread was from last year, an argument could be made that Vesely is the most limited center in offense among the best centers in Euroleague. Still not worst imho.

    This year though, Vesely makes not only assisted dunks, bot also midrange shots, one step post moves, free throws, and some spectacular assists. This tells me the guy who opened the thread seldom watched Vesely play this year. Wouldn't be surprising.

    Edit: His points per possession is 4th overall and 2nd after Jankunas among big men.. His assists average is 31st OVERALL and 2nd big man after Ayon. He is so bad, really. Milutinov is great, by the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziya K View Post
    this is hilarious.
    if you play as a team you naturally get more points with assists.
    Olympiacos averages more assists than Fener while scoring fewer points. It's not that Fener plays 'team basketball' resulting in more assisted baskets for everyone, Vesely included.
    It's that Vesely is useless and needs more assisted buckets.

    But good effort, nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axl Rose Is God View Post
    Stats dont mean a shit when it's players like Vesely. If his offense is so bad, just stop him
    That's the thing, there's nothing to stop there. You should stop Sloukas and everyone else from facilitating but then again maybe you shouldn't, I'd probably focus on stopping fener from shooting >40% on 3 and I'd live with Vesely getting a few easy wide-open dunks.

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    It would be interesting to see this statistics for James Nunnaly , king of assisted shoots, player that couldn't make nothing without help of other players.

    Reegarding Vesely everything is true but he at least makes that assisted shoots with high percentage, which is all he needs to do as center. Beside that he is very active in assists and ball sharing.

    I would also like to see this stats for Datome, player who makes most of the shoots by himself.

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    Datome this season is 31/148=20.9%
    Nunnaly last season was 68/269=25.3%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Nunnaly last season was 68/269=25.3%
    He had 46 3pts made and 48 2pts(most of them from transition), in total 68/94(assisted shoots/shoots made). Regarding that most of his 2pts came from transition(because he wasn't capable for penetrating under basket or for mid range shoots, it's clear that high percentage(around 99% imo) of his 3pts were assisted shoots

    Thank you for this fantastic statistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    That's the thing, there's nothing to stop there. You should stop Sloukas and everyone else from facilitating but then again maybe you shouldn't, I'd probably focus on stopping fener from shooting >40% on 3 and I'd live with Vesely getting a few easy wide-open dunks.
    We didnt have sloukas last week and shot like shit. You really dont have a clue about Fener and basketball in general, if your aim is not trolling around.

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    Oh really? We should fire him!

    Centers dont have to create their own shot, it is enough if they finish efficiently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Olympiacos averages more assists than Fener while scoring fewer points. It's not that Fener plays 'team basketball' resulting in more assisted baskets for everyone, Vesely included.
    It's that Vesely is useless and needs more assisted buckets.

    But good effort, nonetheless.
    Oly attempts more shots than Fener per game... It's just that we are efficient at that, huge thanks to Vesely, while your guys suck at converting those shots.

    Good effort though
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    I just saw that overbasket recently added an assist chart which says to whom and by whom you gave or were given assists. Sadly, it doesn't clearly say how many of your points were assisted but just comparing the assists given to you and the points you scored should give an idea.


    These are the centers that have come up in 'who is the best' discussions:

    Vesely:74/208=35.58%
    Gudaitis:60/194=30.9%
    Ayon: 31/95=32.6%
    Davies: 65/231=28.1%
    Milutinov: 49/156=31.4%
    Poirier: 53/154=34.4%

    As expected, Vesely is the worst, depending the most on others (mainly Sloukas) finding him for an assisted basket. Davies is way ahead of everyone and is doing this while averaging the most points. He should comfortably and without question be All-Euroleague first team.
    To these numbers I can only add that knowing the number of uncontested off rebounds someone gets is also important. If a slasher draws help, misses and you make the easy putback with no one to stop you, that is basically an assist. Probably teams keep track of these things.

    .
    This is a stupid logic, just because Vesely is using assists to score more than others that doesn't mean they are better than him. Vesely can follow and keep up with his friends better than these guys which is what makes him a better scorer.

    Basketball isn't 1 v 1 game, it's 5 v 5, of course you need to take assists from others, if you don't do that then you're a bad scorer and you can't lead your team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Sloukas is showing why, even if the starting pg on a good team, he still seems far from attaining a true star status, he's still not a 'give me the ball, I got this' player. And Spanoulis is of course a god among men, but everyone with half a brain knew that already.
    Wow, I guess we should've lost Barca away game and R.Madrid game since we played those WITHOUT SLOUKAS.

    But guess what, we won those games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axl Rose Is God View Post
    We didnt have sloukas last week and shot like shit.
    And Real would have won without outside interference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    ]
    Basketball isn't 1 v 1 game, it's 5 v 5, of course you need to take assists from others, if you don't do that then you're a bad scorer and you can't lead your team.
    Players who are bad scorers and can't lead their teams: Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James.
    Players who are good scorers and can lead their teams: DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jan Vesely


    Being able to create your shot and get points from it is a very important offensive basketball skill is all I'm saying. Well, apparently some players lack that skill.
    I'm not saying teams should stop passing. If possible, I'd want players who can create both for them and for others. Having only players who can't create shots and depend on others wouldn't work and this is something we should account for when judging a player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    And Real would have won without outside interference.
    Stop crying like a baby everytime we win, we won fair and square. We stopped R.Madrid and they only scored 63 pts despite having a better 3 pts shooting than us.

    We also won the Barca away game without Sloukas, I guess you will complain about refs again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
    Stop crying like a baby everytime we won, we won fair and square.
    Lol, ok. Off-topic btw

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    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Is this travesty of logic and ignoring actual stats the new norm here? If so, I have a great argument on why Klay Thompson is a shit player and 10 other facts the NBA don't want you to know

    Now once again, Vesely can create for other players better than 90% of other Euroleague players (his assists average), and he doesn't need to force his shot because he's extremely efficient when he is passed. He ain't gonna attempt 25 shots, 10 of them forced, just to prove he can make some of them in a less efficient way. It's idiotic to say not attempting bad shots is a bad trait for a player.
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