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Vesely is easily the worst center offensively

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Oly_fan View Post
    I just saw that overbasket recently added an assist chart which says to whom and by whom you gave or were given assists. Sadly, it doesn't clearly say how many of your points were assisted but just comparing the assists given to you and the points you scored should give an idea.


    These are the centers that have come up in 'who is the best' discussions:

    Vesely:74/208=35.58%
    Gudaitis:60/194=30.9%
    Ayon: 31/95=32.6%
    Davies: 65/231=28.1%
    Milutinov: 49/156=31.4%
    Poirier: 53/154=34.4%

    As expected, Vesely is the worst, depending the most on others (mainly Sloukas) finding him for an assisted basket. Davies is way ahead of everyone and is doing this while averaging the most points. He should comfortably and without question be All-Euroleague first team.
    To these numbers I can only add that knowing the number of uncontested off rebounds someone gets is also important. If a slasher draws help, misses and you make the easy putback with no one to stop you, that is basically an assist. Probably teams keep track of these things.

    .
    This is a stupid logic, just because Vesely is using assists to score more than others that doesn't mean they are better than him. Vesely can follow and keep up with his friends better than these guys which is what makes him a better scorer.

    Basketball isn't 1 v 1 game, it's 5 v 5, of course you need to take assists from others, if you don't do that then you're a bad scorer and you can't lead your team.

    Originally posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Sloukas is showing why, even if the starting pg on a good team, he still seems far from attaining a true star status, he's still not a 'give me the ball, I got this' player. And Spanoulis is of course a god among men, but everyone with half a brain knew that already.
    Wow, I guess we should've lost Barca away game and R.Madrid game since we played those WITHOUT SLOUKAS.

    But guess what, we won those games.
    FENERBAHÇE
    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2020 Turkish Basketball Cup Champion ---
    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022 Turkish Basketball League Champion ---
    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Axl Rose Is God View Post
      We didnt have sloukas last week and shot like shit.
      And Real would have won without outside interference.


      Originally posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
      ]
      Basketball isn't 1 v 1 game, it's 5 v 5, of course you need to take assists from others, if you don't do that then you're a bad scorer and you can't lead your team.
      Players who are bad scorers and can't lead their teams: Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James.
      Players who are good scorers and can lead their teams: DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert, Jan Vesely


      Being able to create your shot and get points from it is a very important offensive basketball skill is all I'm saying. Well, apparently some players lack that skill.
      I'm not saying teams should stop passing. If possible, I'd want players who can create both for them and for others. Having only players who can't create shots and depend on others wouldn't work and this is something we should account for when judging a player.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Oly_fan View Post
        And Real would have won without outside interference.
        Stop crying like a baby everytime we win, we won fair and square. We stopped R.Madrid and they only scored 63 pts despite having a better 3 pts shooting than us.

        We also won the Barca away game without Sloukas, I guess you will complain about refs again.
        FENERBAHÇE
        --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2020 Turkish Basketball Cup Champion ---
        --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022 Turkish Basketball League Champion ---
        --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
        --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Tevfik1907 View Post
          Stop crying like a baby everytime we won, we won fair and square.
          Lol, ok. Off-topic btw

          Comment


          • #20
            Is this travesty of logic and ignoring actual stats the new norm here? If so, I have a great argument on why Klay Thompson is a shit player and 10 other facts the NBA don't want you to know

            Now once again, Vesely can create for other players better than 90% of other Euroleague players (his assists average), and he doesn't need to force his shot because he's extremely efficient when he is passed. He ain't gonna attempt 25 shots, 10 of them forced, just to prove he can make some of them in a less efficient way. It's idiotic to say not attempting bad shots is a bad trait for a player.
            Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
            Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
            Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
            Şampiyonluk gelince

            Comment


            • #21
              olympiacos: 18.93 Fener 18.53
              yes that's a huge difference...

              Originally posted by Oly_fan View Post
              Olympiacos averages more assists than Fener while scoring fewer points. It's not that Fener plays 'team basketball' resulting in more assisted baskets for everyone, Vesely included.
              It's that Vesely is useless and needs more assisted buckets.

              But good effort, nonetheless.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by vivo View Post
                It's idiotic to say not attempting bad shots is a bad trait for a player.
                But not being able to create good shots is...

                Comment


                • #23
                  i think you are a gala fan I thought I could hear this kinda stuff only from them. DD

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Shengelia can't even finish a great pass like this;



                    Vesely,

                    Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.


                    But somehow Shengelia is a better scorer than Vesely
                    FENERBAHÇE
                    --- 1967, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2016, 2019, 2020 Turkish Basketball Cup Champion ---
                    --- 1991, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2022 Turkish Basketball League Champion ---
                    --- 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019 Euroleague Final Four ---
                    --- 2017 Euroleague Champion ---

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Vesely is easily the worst WHAT??????

                      Sad choice of a topic title, really.

                      Not exciting, I can understand...
                      Not my style, I can understand...
                      Don’t think it is best, I can understand...

                      But WORST?

                      Really?


                      Note: I understand the logic. Everybody is entitled to their opinions. I do not agree.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cuneyt View Post
                        Vesely is easily the worst WHAT??????

                        Sad choice of a topic title, really.

                        Not exciting, I can understand...
                        Not my style, I can understand...
                        Don’t think it is best, I can understand...

                        But WORST?

                        Really?


                        Note: I understand the logic. Everybody is entitled to their opinions. I do not agree.
                        Agree. The right title should be: "Vesely isn't the best center offensively".

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Vesely is clearly the best center in the league and he is the strongest candidate of mvp award right now. This pathetic guy has some butthurt due to Fener's ass-kicking at 2017 final. That is why he is claiming such a bull-shit opinion.

                          Here some weakness of this bull-shit opinion

                          1- getting assist / total points ratio only shows the percentage, not the total amount. Even if Vesely score more points than the others without feeding, his percentage could be higher and look worse. For instance if Vesely makes 5 amazing dunks with asists next game , according to this bull-shit opinion he will be worse player because his percentage will get higher. Finish the services well and be a worse player is not a smart conclusion lol

                          2- Even tough being able to score without assist is a good aspect, there are many aspects to define qaulity, especially for center. Being a good finisher, making good defence, having a good court vision, awaraness, engine, energy, consistency etc. Vesely is very good at many aspects.

                          3- Scoring with getting assist doesnt show that guy could not score without service. This can be team's or player's personal choice. Effiency is the main point at there. Vesely has low post game and mid-range shot but his team and he would rather pick %80 lay-up to %50 one-one play. Fener's game plan is based on tough defence and efficient offence. That is why Fener is the first at true shooting among the teams, and Vesely is secong among the players.

                          4- Being a good finisher is also another important aspect. He is very good athlete and very good finisher. He could score with dunks and lay-ups at some position that most of others could not. Lets assume Milutinov and Vesely have same getting assist / total points ratio and the same situation happened and good service has come. Vesely finishes with dunk, but Milutinov misses the dunk. After this incident Vesely ratio will be higher but Milutinov ratio will be same. So Vesely will look worse player because his ratio is higher. This show how stupid this guy's opinion.

                          This pathetic hater doesnt deserve to be taken seriosuly, but I have some free time and wasted.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Canarian View Post
                            Vesely is clearly the best center in the league and he is the strongest candidate of mvp award right now. This pathetic guy has some butthurt due to Fener's ass-kicking at 2017 final. That is why he is claiming such a bull-shit opinion.

                            Here some weakness of this bull-shit opinion

                            1- getting assist / total points ratio only shows the percentage, not the total amount. Even if Vesely score more points than the others without feeding, his percentage could be higher and look worse. For instance if Vesely makes 5 amazing dunks with asists next game , according to this bull-shit opinion he will be worse player because his percentage will get higher. Finish the services well and be a worse player is not a smart conclusion lol

                            2- Even tough being able to score without assist is a good aspect, there are many aspects to define qaulity, especially for center. Being a good finisher, making good defence, having a good court vision, awaraness, engine, energy, consistency etc. Vesely is very good at many aspects.

                            3- Scoring with getting assist doesnt show that guy could not score without service. This can be team's or player's personal choice. Effiency is the main point at there. Vesely has low post game and mid-range shot but his team and he would rather pick %80 lay-up to %50 one-one play. Fener's game plan is based on tough defence and efficient offence. That is why Fener is the first at true shooting among the teams, and Vesely is secong among the players.

                            4- Being a good finisher is also another important aspect. He is very good athlete and very good finisher. He could score with dunks and lay-ups at some position that most of others could not. Lets assume Milutinov and Vesely have same getting assist / total points ratio and the same situation happened and good service has come. Vesely finishes with dunk, but Milutinov misses the dunk. After this incident Vesely ratio will be higher but Milutinov ratio will be same. So Vesely will look worse player because his ratio is higher. This show how stupid this guy's opinion.

                            This pathetic hater doesnt deserve to be taken seriosuly, but I have some free time and wasted.
                            I don't agree with the conclusion either but it is still an interesting stat which obviously as you say doesn't give the whole picture.

                            Numbers never do. That doesn't make his attempt to indicate a relative area for Veselys improvement pathetic.

                            If anything, it is true that he creates less for himself than Davies. Whether that makes him better or worse overall is impossible to judge firstly because they don't play for the same team but the first statement remains a fact.

                            Don't get so angry, happy New year!
                            "Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." —George Raveling

                            "If I weren’t earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming."—Charles Barkley

                            "You are really funny thinking that you will be the ones to kick PANATHINAIKOS out of euroleague. We will do it ourselves." - saras (not the player )

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                            • #29
                              Colorades, do not feed the troll.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This is what happens when you skip the methodology classes. There is a mismatch between the concept operationalized (the offensive quality of centers) and measurement methodology (playing isolation). Yes, for centers playing isolation is used to assses the offfensive quality of a player, its not irony. You would rather expect some combination of passing abilities + scoring abilities + usage of a player in the team plays while on the floor + (maybe) efficiency of playing isolation or you should make your generalizations contingent (such as Vesely is the worst offensive center among the best when it comes to playing isolation). But I guess the combination of these stats would not make Milutinov appear as better than Vesely so lets stick to the efficiency of playing isolation.

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