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Thread: 2019 PBA All Filipino Cup

  1. #21
    Senior Member ja.he's Avatar
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    So it is safe to say that pba should not have done league expansion 5 years ago. Although, the balance will still get destroyed, at least the size and talent are concentrated into fewer teams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ja.he View Post
    So it is safe to say that pba should not have done league expansion 5 years ago. Although, the balance will still get destroyed, at least the size and talent are concentrated into fewer teams.
    If CS and Japeth played for other teams it would be more balanced. The 6'5 Filfors who played in ABL can help. But I think their waiting till their 27.

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    Senior Member Jay P. Mercado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IshmaelM View Post
    If CS and Japeth played for other teams it would be more balanced. The 6'5 Filfors who played in ABL can help. But I think their waiting till their 27.
    Yup, a rule similar to what Tommy Manotoc implemented back in the mid-80's when he prevented bigs Ramon Fernandez, Abet Guidaben, Manny Victorino and Yoyoy Villamin to play for one team. Which was the reason why Guidaben and Fernandez were traded for each other twice, while Victorino and Villamin never got to be teammates with with anyone in that list.

    True enough, the parity reaped dividends. From 1988 to 1992, 7 of the 8 teams in the league have already won at least one PBA title, notwithstanding SMB's grandslam success in 1989. Curiously though, SMB went up against 3 different teams (Shell, Purefoods, Aejo) when they won the Triple Crown...

    If the same rule is applied today among bigs JMF, Greg, Almazan, Erram, Aguilar and Standhardinger, then we can see at least 6 of the 12 teams in contention for the championship in the PHL Cup....

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    Senior Member ja.he's Avatar
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    I find it funny that in pba, 6’5 even 6’4 players are still considered bigs and plays PF or C while in overseas taller players like antetokounmpo, Simmons, Durant et al can play guard positions if they wanted to. 6’4 players overseas are PG’s and SG’s they are undersized even for a SF. 6’5 players are generally PG’s and SG’s overseas. Some plays SF they are also considered short if playing in nba.

    The reason why Junmar is now the goat with 5 straight MVP’s but still average in FIBA basketball.
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    a case of big fish, small pond for Junmar, the lack of bigman in the country paved way for this scenario,(well, Taulava and Reavis, who are way past their primes and are in their 40s/entering their 40s are still in the league as key players)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P. Mercado View Post
    Yup, a rule similar to what Tommy Manotoc implemented back in the mid-80's when he prevented bigs Ramon Fernandez, Abet Guidaben, Manny Victorino and Yoyoy Villamin to play for one team. Which was the reason why Guidaben and Fernandez were traded for each other twice, while Victorino and Villamin never got to be teammates with with anyone in that list.

    True enough, the parity reaped dividends. From 1988 to 1992, 7 of the 8 teams in the league have already won at least one PBA title, notwithstanding SMB's grandslam success in 1989. Curiously though, SMB went up against 3 different teams (Shell, Purefoods, Aejo) when they won the Triple Crown...

    If the same rule is applied today among bigs JMF, Greg, Almazan, Erram, Aguilar and Standhardinger, then we can see at least 6 of the 12 teams in contention for the championship in the PHL Cup....
    I think a similar rule was revived under Eala (?). When there is a restricted list of franchise players that cannot be traded easily (I think they are only allowed to be traded for each other). I can't remember what happened to that rule. Maybe it was removed because teams can promote/relegate players to/from the restricted list too easily.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Jay P. Mercado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leoisiah View Post
    I think a similar rule was revived under Eala (?). When there is a restricted list of franchise players that cannot be traded easily (I think they are only allowed to be traded for each other). I can't remember what happened to that rule. Maybe it was removed because teams can promote/relegate players to/from the restricted list too easily.
    Yes, it was called the RTL (Restricted Trading List). It was implemented during Eala's era as Commissioner but was eventually lifted in 2008.

    The pretext behind this rule was that each team will need to name one player from their roster and put him in the RTL. If he would be traded, it had to be with a player from a different team identified in the RTL as well.

    There was controversy as some teams tried to pull quick ones, changing the name of the player in the RTL to get him traded. An example was Enrico Villanueva, who, after being placed in the RTL, was removed and replaced by another Red Bull player, in order for him to be traded to another team. The farce continued until the Board decided to simply drop the rule as teams just found a way to circumvent this and defeat the very purpose of the said RTL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by analyzed View Post
    These guys should not really be playing full time professional basketball, they should look at other careers like Jet Manuel.. I'd say at least a third of the PBA players should be semi pro like MPBL players with long term sustainable day time jobs or businesses. A 6 foot small forward has no business being paid as a full time professional basketball player.
    PBA lost it's integrity for me years ago. go figure how pacquiao came to be aplaying coach. SMH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P. Mercado View Post
    Yes, it was called the RTL (Restricted Trading List). It was implemented during Eala's era as Commissioner but was eventually lifted in 2008.

    The pretext behind this rule was that each team will need to name one player from their roster and put him in the RTL. If he would be traded, it had to be with a player from a different team identified in the RTL as well.

    There was controversy as some teams tried to pull quick ones, changing the name of the player in the RTL to get him traded. An example was Enrico Villanueva, who, after being placed in the RTL, was removed and replaced by another Red Bull player, in order for him to be traded to another team. The farce continued until the Board decided to simply drop the rule as teams just found a way to circumvent this and defeat the very purpose of the said RTL.
    How about list of statistic based ranking of players. Then a rule were top players can only be traded with another top 15 player based on statistical ranking. Aside from statistics, players age, experience can be added to formulate the player's ranking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by analyzed View Post
    These guys should not really be playing full time professional basketball, they should look at other careers like Jet Manuel.. I'd say at least a third of the PBA players should be semi pro like MPBL players with long term sustainable day time jobs or businesses. A 6 foot small forward has no business being paid as a full time professional basketball player.
    Before I thought you were just misunderstood but now I see that you are so blinded by so called ideal height and position. Thinking that because you are 6'6" you should be playing SF regardless whether the player likes or even can play SF. Telling people that they shouldn't be playing basketball because of their height rather than talent, skills and attitude is not what the sports promotes. I will never tell another human being what he can and can't do especially if they are good at it.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Jay P. Mercado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    How about list of statistic based ranking of players. Then a rule were top players can only be traded with another top 15 player based on statistical ranking. Aside from statistics, players age, experience can be added to formulate the player's ranking.
    That should be workable. At this point, anything that can prevent rampant lopsided trades that tend to benefit the "richer" teams and efforts to improve parity would be acceptable.

    It's critical, as you mentioned, to also include other tangible factors like age and experience, playing position (centers would obviously be more valuable), and a little portion on intangibles (leadership, impact to the game, etc.).

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    Win Share and advance analytics will be included. But also important in any rule it needs to be reviewed and change depending on its relevance and if a team finds a loophole on the rules. For example, if a rich team wants to trade their above average player for a farm team's top player, the farm team can just not play its player for several games or asked him to play bad to make his statistic to go down to the level of above average player from top player status.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P. Mercado View Post
    That should be workable. At this point, anything that can prevent rampant lopsided trades that tend to benefit the "richer" teams and efforts to improve parity would be acceptable.

    It's critical, as you mentioned, to also include other tangible factors like age and experience, playing position (centers would obviously be more valuable), and a little portion on intangibles (leadership, impact to the game, etc.).
    I agree, also win share and other advance analytics will be included. But also important in any rule it needs to be reviewed and change depending on its relevance and if a team finds a loophole on the rules. For example, if a rich team wants to trade their above average player for a farm team's top player, the farm team can just not play its player for several games or asked him to play bad to make his statistic to go down to the level of above average player from top player status.

  14. #34
    Senior Member reamily's Avatar
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    Real Value of Player = Salary he is getting... As long as pba isnt transparent this controversy will continue to haunt them... People will understand how Blackwater lose erram and how much a nard pinto overprice himself...

    Transparency......I dont get why the fans are thinking so hard on the solution, the solution is already right in eyes... If someone like a alex cabagnot takes a paycut let the people judge if this is true or not... Sa NBA nga kita mo yun breakdown ng sweldo ng players sa pba kaya?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ja.he View Post
    I find it funny that in pba, 6’5 even 6’4 players are still considered bigs and plays PF or C while in overseas taller players like antetokounmpo, Simmons, Durant et al can play guard positions if they wanted to. 6’4 players overseas are PG’s and SG’s they are undersized even for a SF. 6’5 players are generally PG’s and SG’s overseas. Some plays SF they are also considered short if playing in nba.

    The reason why Junmar is now the goat with 5 straight MVP’s but still average in FIBA basketball.
    The coddling nature of our basketball culture. We need to “give a chance to local bigs.” So you see the NCAA doing away with foreign players and the PBA imposing height restrictions on imports and the Midgets and Pygmies Basketball League restricting Filams to 6’4” and below.

    It’s a good thing JMF has gotten to play FIBA ball so he’s no longer shocked and surprised when he gets blocked or outrebounded. Too bad his current coach keeps him nailed to the paint.

  17. #37
    Senior Member Jay P. Mercado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamily View Post
    Real Value of Player = Salary he is getting... As long as pba isnt transparent this controversy will continue to haunt them... People will understand how Blackwater lose erram and how much a nard pinto overprice himself...

    Transparency......I dont get why the fans are thinking so hard on the solution, the solution is already right in eyes... If someone like a alex cabagnot takes a paycut let the people judge if this is true or not... Sa NBA nga kita mo yun breakdown ng sweldo ng players sa pba kaya?
    Ideal if it's in the NBA. Not ideal here. Salaries are grossly undervalued, especially among rich teams, to "fit" within the salary cap. But the other benefits they receive not included in the cap is what's significant, and yes, non-taxable.

    You have a Terrence Romeo who SMB management claims to be receiving P200k a month despite the fact that he was the scoring champion on his last year of his rookie contract. Note that there was even a news report on Romeo's contract extension in 2015 where he got the max - https://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/09/2...ith-globalport.... or this -https://www.spin.ph/basketball/pba/terrence-romeo-signs-three-year-maximum-deal-with-globalport

    Or Romeo might have been generous enough to take a pay cut, just like the SMB vets in accommodating him to their roster?

    See what I mean? Salaries won't work!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    Before I thought you were just misunderstood but now I see that you are so blinded by so called ideal height and position. Thinking that because you are 6'6" you should be playing SF regardless whether the player likes or even can play SF. Telling people that they shouldn't be playing basketball because of their height rather than talent, skills and attitude is not what the sports promotes. I will never tell another human being what he can and can't do especially if they are good at it.
    I really have no interest on putting people down, I don't t believe on that at all so that's not the intent, hoops is for everyone who enjoys the game and shoud be promoted but I do think there is a certain standard required to play to be a full time professional and 6 foot forwards isn't really of a minimum standard
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  19. #39
    Senior Member reamily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay P. Mercado View Post
    Ideal if it's in the NBA. Not ideal here. Salaries are grossly undervalued, especially among rich teams, to "fit" within the salary cap. But the other benefits they receive not included in the cap is what's significant, and yes, non-taxable.

    You have a Terrence Romeo who SMB management claims to be receiving P200k a month despite the fact that he was the scoring champion on his last year of his rookie contract. Note that there was even a news report on Romeo's contract extension in 2015 where he got the max - https://news.abs-cbn.com/sports/09/2...ith-globalport.... or this -https://www.spin.ph/basketball/pba/terrence-romeo-signs-three-year-maximum-deal-with-globalport

    Or Romeo might have been generous enough to take a pay cut, just like the SMB vets in accommodating him to their roster?

    See what I mean? Salaries won't work!
    But that is first step...as people will be conscious on this as everytime we see romeo in fb people will comment naniniwala ba kayo 200 k lang sweldo nito mas mataas pa yun kay nard pinto?.. Doing nothing here would be worse for the pba. Like for example people will not look at blackwater that bad if people knew that JP erram was a n expiring contarct and didnt want to sign with bwe. As last resort bwe will do a sign and trade deal with nlex for desiderio and tratter thats more transparent and uncontroversial compare to a simple erram to desiderio tratter trade without the details why the trade happen...

    Like for example PBA rokie salary is ridiculous, so if Jordan Clarkson applied for pba draft he will mandated to receive 200 k php per month?
    Last edited by reamily; 01-15-2019 at 06:12 AM.
    To becomes Asia's Best, we need to compete against the World's Best..

  20. #40
    Senior Member Jay P. Mercado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reamily View Post
    But that is first step...as people will be conscious on this as everytime we see romeo in fb people will comment naniniwala ba kayo 200 k lang sweldo nito mas mataas pa yun kay nard pinto?.. Doing nothing here would be worse for the pba..
    No, doing nothing is best for them, at least in the eyes of the owners, the governors, the Kume, and the players, because it won't rock the boat. When everyone in the community is on the same page, why would anyone want to change things when it cannot totally revolutionize into something earth-shaking like a fan boycott or something?

    Not that I'm not for it - I am - but I've learned to be realistic enough to accept that, despite the clamor to have the league be transparent with the players' salaries and UPC's, they just won't want these revealed. Not the owners and governors who cheat on the salary caps (SMC and MVP teams) and floors (Columbian and Blackwater). Not the Commissioner who has to factor the salary cap everytime as a concern when dealing with trade issues. Not the players who don't want their compensation revealed to the public for the security of their families.

    Remember, this transparency issue on the salary cap has long been in existence since the century began - when Tanduay took stock of SMB's players receiving the max, and the counter move of the Rhum Masters to offer side contracts to their own players. That was year 2001. Seriously, do we really expect this to have been cleansed? Tanduay wasn't too cerebral enough because they had a side contract made - but would we ever believe a Danny Seigle earning in the P200k category that era when the max is P500k?

    A player overall assessment can be made, definitely. But count out salaries, these aren't reliable...

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