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Thread: Euroleague Regular Season: Week 11

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Is Calathes untouchable? 2.550.000 $ net looks a lot. How much is that gross? Around 4.5 mio $?
    He is not untouchable but in my opinion it's not the biggest mistake. First, salaries are a tricky part in general. So I won't look into it so harshly. Secondly, greek teams tend to pay greek players more than usual because they need them due to regulations.

    Calathes (with his known disadvantages that have been discussed extensively here) possesses some qualities (passing, iq, defense, size) that make him a potential center piece in a team. I blame the managing staff for not helping him and exposing him in such a way.

    By looking at the team in retrospect, then yes, it is an absolute mistake to give to Calathes 2.5mil, when the rest of the team is not appropriately structured.

    For example, if we bought Gudaitis for 3mil and then instead of feeding him under the basket, we designed plays for open 3 pointers for him, well it's not really his fault if he wouldn't perform

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    Is Calathes untouchable? 2.550.000 $ net looks a lot. How much is that gross? Around 4.5 mio $?
    Has to be about 3 mil $ since Pao evades taxes through fake contracts.

    Pappas is very underrated. Not that he's great but last year he was averaging 10.3 ppg before Mike James arrived on pretty good efficiency and while creating many of his shots.
    How is that bad for a shooting guard who was at best the team's 4th offensive option behind Calathes, Singleton and Rivers?

    The only season he averaged more than 20 minutes (20.33) he also scored 10.8 ppg on a stupendously high 63.6 TS%.
    If any foreigner did that, everyone would go crazy. But somehow Pappas is always the first to see his minutes drop. He can have a great game, then get benched for the next one, miss a couple field goals in the first half and stay out the entire second etc

    It's a mystery.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oly_fan View Post
    Has to be about 3 mil $ since Pao evades taxes through fake contracts.

    Pappas is very underrated. Not that he's great but last year he was averaging 10.3 ppg before Mike James arrived on pretty good efficiency and while creating many of his shots.
    How is that bad for a shooting guard who was at best the team's 4th offensive option behind Calathes, Singleton and Rivers?

    The only season he averaged more than 20 minutes (20.33) he also scored 10.8 ppg on a stupendously high 63.6 TS%.
    If any foreigner did that, everyone would go crazy. But somehow Pappas is always the first to see his minutes drop. He can have a great game, then get benched for the next one, miss a couple field goals in the first half and stay out the entire second etc

    It's a mystery.
    It's not really a mystery when you see how he reacts to certain situations in the game. He gets stubborn and will force shots when things don't go his way. He was a terrible defender, now he kind of tries but still...

    He has a specific talent of driving and finishing even with contact but that's about it. He offers nothing more to the game. If he was not greek, he could get a nice 300k contract and everything would be fine. Last season he might have averages 10 points before James came but the deviation was crazy. He would either score 20+ or 6-

    Don't you think that there is a reason that he doesn't average more minutes? Do the coaches have such a nuclear weapon and refuse to use it? I won't even mention the quarrels he has had with coaches through the years.

    Undoubtedly he is talented, but he never worked to reach his potential. He is the same player he was when he was 20 years old...
    Again, really nice to have him come off the bench for 300k, but not 700.

    PS: I am guessing there is some proof for your first claim. You are not some kind of sheep that follows what the president and Tsoukalas say without any evidence, right?

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspalj View Post
    He is not untouchable but in my opinion it's not the biggest mistake. First, salaries are a tricky part in general. So I won't look into it so harshly. Secondly, greek teams tend to pay greek players more than usual because they need them due to regulations.

    Calathes (with his known disadvantages that have been discussed extensively here) possesses some qualities (passing, iq, defense, size) that make him a potential center piece in a team. I blame the managing staff for not helping him and exposing him in such a way.

    By looking at the team in retrospect, then yes, it is an absolute mistake to give to Calathes 2.5mil, when the rest of the team is not appropriately structured.

    For example, if we bought Gudaitis for 3mil and then instead of feeding him under the basket, we designed plays for open 3 pointers for him, well it's not really his fault if he wouldn't perform
    Yes but it would be very unfortunate, if you gave 3 mio for Gudaitis and found out that he has forgotten how to jump.
    previously known as Beno

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTEGRAL View Post
    Never heard such a stupid argument.

    "Fenerbahçe is very succesful for 15 years but not among top 10 biggest clubs"

    And you say Panathinaikos started to be succesful since 1995. So 23 years till 2018. And this club is very mediocre or unsuccesful for over 5 years.

    You say Fenerbahçe is great for 15 years. There are 8 years between Pao and that team is not too good for 5+ yeas. So only 3-4 years do not make Fenerbahçe among "top 10" biggest clubs? Such a stupid useless post..

    What clubs are top 10? Partizan, CZ, Pao, Zalgiris, Olympiacos? But Fenerbahçe is not? While Fener is shitting on those teams. GTFO here with your brainless post.

    You say Panathinaikos is not too good last 5 years,but is in quarter-finals ,that is standard of top 10 in Europe .Panathinaikos won 6 Euroleagues ,by the way .Fenerbahce barely to be amongst 10 biggest in Europe,if we only counted last 10 years,historically maybe in 20 biggest is .Partizan,Zalgiris,Panathinaikos,Olympiacos are amongst 10 biggest clubs in Europe .Can you for example make teams of 10 best players of Fenerbahce before 2005,and how much players we knows those ones who dont support Fenerbahce.If you are undecent because someone said Fenerbahce isnt amongst 10 biggest clubs in Europe,this tell so much about your decency .

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemanja View Post
    Sorry if I hurt your emotion ,but if we talk about biggest Europen level Fenerbahce almost doesnt existed on the map .On Turkish level and European average was existed .
    As we talk about how great was Nokia in recent history,or Sony Walkman,Wrangler jeans etc.etc.
    They were really doing great,but it doesn‘t change the fact that they lost their position to newer brands which outperformed them.
    Just like Maccabi,Pao,Barcelona,Virtus etc.
    Fenerbahce is the current new boss of European basketball and this is the only countable fact.

  7. #187
    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfan View Post
    As we talk about how great was Nokia in recent history,or Sony Walkman,Wrangler jeans etc.etc.
    They were really doing great,but it doesn‘t change the fact that they lost their position to newer brands which outperformed them.
    Just like Maccabi,Pao,Barcelona,Virtus etc.
    Fenerbahce is the current new boss of European basketball and this is the only countable fact.
    May I remind you that Real is current winner.
    previously known as Beno

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfan View Post
    As we talk about how great was Nokia in recent history,or Sony Walkman,Wrangler jeans etc.etc.
    They were really doing great,but it doesn‘t change the fact that they lost their position to newer brands which outperformed them.
    Just like Maccabi,Pao,Barcelona,Virtus etc.
    Fenerbahce is the current new boss of European basketball and this is the only countable fact.
    I suppose the discussion was about which are HISTORICALLY European powerhouses and not which are CURRENTLY. Before Obra, just a few years ago, Fener was a mediocre team in Europe at best. Do you remember Orwell"s 1984, in which history was constantly rewritten to suit the current situation?
    Winner of IBN Euroleague Prediction Game 2017-2018

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    I suppose the discussion was about which are HISTORICALLY European powerhouses and not which are CURRENTLY. Before Obra, just a few years ago, Fener was a mediocre team in Europe at best. Do you remember Orwell"s 1984, in which history was constantly rewritten to suit the current situation?
    With all my due respect to the above mentioned clubs,i prefer evolution over history especially in sports.
    This i believe is the only truth.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Bob View Post
    May I remind you that Real is current winner.
    And we respect that...

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adon View Post
    I suppose the discussion was about which are HISTORICALLY European powerhouses and not which are CURRENTLY. Before Obra, just a few years ago, Fener was a mediocre team in Europe at best. Do you remember Orwell"s 1984, in which history was constantly rewritten to suit the current situation?
    I do not even know how the discussion started as one or more posts must be deleted.
    Where I picked up was "why Fenerbahce isnt amongst 10 biggest clubs in Europe", and I do not think it is a fair statement.
    I am just not stupid enough to claim we are the best...but I do not think any sane person would make a top 10 list in EU basketball nowadays, and discount Fenerbahçe.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    Cibona is indeed too far in the past, but you're cutting it too short. Great teams like Bologna are too fresh in my memory to discard yet, even Ginobili was there.

    btw, Euroleague became EuroLeague in 1996, but it was still Euroleague earlier too under different names. I'm sure you were watching EL then too. "ULEB Euroleague" started in 2000, but I don't know why the Euro bball history has to start there.
    I agree with you. Mine was just a quick and dirty based on Euroleague's own homepage.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfan View Post
    With all my due respect to the above mentioned clubs,i prefer evolution over history especially in sports.
    This i believe is the only truth.
    How is truth win Euroleague 2017 ,but isnt truth win Euroleague 1986 ? About evolution,Euroleague is now weaker thab for example 2009 or 2002 or 1998 .

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemanja View Post
    How is truth win Euroleague 2017 ,but isnt truth win Euroleague 1986 ? About evolution,Euroleague is now weaker thab for example 2009 or 2002 or 1998 .
    Just come on,even the definition of an athlete used to be different in 1986.
    Seriously it‘s not correct to compare 1986 EL champion to 2017 one.
    Everything is just different.
    I say EL is way much stronger today than in 98,2002 or 2009.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breadfan View Post
    Just come on,even the definition of an athlete used to be different in 1986.
    Seriously it‘s not correct to compare 1986 EL champion to 2017 one.
    Everything is just different.
    I say EL is way much stronger today than in 98,2002 or 2009.
    It's difficult to compare such things. In the past, the "kidnapping" of European talented players by NBA was much more limited than nowadays. Many great players played in Europe and never went to USA, many others had a long career in Europe before their draft. Also, many NBA players, ( I'm not talking about the rejects) some of them living legends, were playing here.
    Overall, I think that the quality of the players, talent-wise, was better in the past. On the other hand, pure athleticism was lower than it is now.
    Hard to say something definite.
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