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Thread: Euroleague/Club Competition 2019-20: Signings & Rumours - Offseason

  1. #1341
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Because I don't like Obradovic and I am not particularly fond of Fenerbahce. So if they want to give a small fortune to somebody like D. Williams, all the better
    We feel the same way then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Without quoting both posts just a joint answer.

    At some point people have to stop believing in the Obradovic and some kind of magic stick he has. He has never been a player development coach, whatever people may think. I have been closely following his career since he was a player He is a guy who can select players well and fit them into a scheme. Players over time adjust to the scheme better and find ways to be successful or not. There are plenty of examples of players he has chosen that haven't worked out.

    He likes consistency in his rosters, this is why his teams don't have wild oscilations in terms of performance. This is why guys like Vesely, Datome, Kalinic, Sloukas, Dixon are there. He wants the core in place in order to run the system. Then he plugs some players and hopes to make a jump. The difference between PAO years and now is that at that time, he had EL and FIBA HoF talents on his roster year in and year out, so he was much more dangerous to win the chip, than now. He is close with Fener but not nearly as dominant as he used to be.

    Guys who have improved under him are people who are notorious gym rats and work on their game. He has said it in the past also, that it is player's responsibility to work on their craft. He should teach them how to play in a team environment. Guys who have been successful in Obradovic's system are guys who are willing to let their ego go and put team first. And now we come back to D. Williams.

    Williams is an ego-maniac. A guy who never really learned how to play basketball at a high level. He was always blessed physically and that made him lazy in terms of development. I have followed him since his NCAA days. He dominated the competition there purely on his physical attributes. His NBA career is a caution story for young prospect how to waste your talent. We are talking about a guy who never wanted to work hard and improve his craft. He is a guy that doesn't have the basketball IQ to have the ball in his hands and play on the bounce, but guess what that is actually the only time he has an actual advantage on the floor. In a half-court set he sucks, as a PnR roller he still sucks, with a ball in his hands you will lose your hair. He is a guy that can give you good transition play, an offensive rebound score here and there and then maybe run by some slow forwards guarding him. He is also dead in his development curve. That is for me a guy not worthy of a championship roster.

    You can take it whichever you like. You can talk about having him in a lesser role, Obradovic magic stick. It just doesn't work like that in basketball. You can't become something completely different by switching teams. You can get a new role or use your skillset more efficiently, but you are still the same player.
    What do you think about Larkin? Btw i agree that D.Williams is a risky move.

  3. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by punch2k View Post
    What do you think about Larkin? Btw i agree that D.Williams is a risky move.
    Larkin was a 1st round pick who was one of the best PnR scorers in NCAA that year. He is extremely athletic, regardless of his size, and probably has the quickest 1st step in EL by a mile. He has always excelled in the PnR heavy offense because he can create his shot at an elite level out of PnR. Slashing, midrange, 3pt off the bounce he can do it all at a high level. He is not an elite passer/creator out of PnR but he does quite well, more than enough to keep the defense honest and not collapse on him.

    Baskonia has by far the best scouting department in Europe, so no wonder they saw his potential. He was given a role less suited to his skillset, since he was asked to run the offense and create for others at a much higher level than he is capable of. With Efes, Ataman actually identified his skills better and turn him loose on teams, who struggled to keep up with him in the PnR. He creates so much room with his pace and first step, that it is a big question mark who to put on him to defend him.

    He is a gambler on defense, and outside of exploding in the passing lanes or try to gamble for a steal, he will not give you much. Also, in order to be successful, he needs to be surrounded with at least another creator who can play with the ball. When his scoring is not going, he tends to destroy the team offense. The key to Efes succes was that they also had Micic and Simon, who are both good creators with the ball so Larking opened so much for them, they could do many things.

    I don't know a single team in EL who wouldn't like Larkin to be in their squad though. What he does well, is NBA-level talent. He has deficiencies but his elite skills outweigh all of his cons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janketa View Post
    For 1.5 milion we could bring better pf and not undersized Tarzan with low IQ and bad shoot selection. I am maybe the only one Fener fan who isn't excited about him which means maybe I am wrong...

    Yes, Singelton would be better signing imo
    Singleton has reportedly wanted more than 2 million euros
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    I think Efes was after Lucic, too, and I would be a lot happier than now if they could get him.


    this was the craziest, and may have affected all the other negotiations. i mean if Huertel can get $3m+/year, why would anyone not try to get more?
    I don't understand why people think Teodosic is such a gamble right now when Heurtel got that contract.

  6. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    I don't understand why people think Teodosic is such a gamble right now when Heurtel got that contract.
    I think it is much more about health and motivation, rather than skillset. Teodosic's skillset ages very well actually. His style of play has almost nothing to do with explosiveness. He was always crafty, elite vision and passing out of PnR, shooting, etc. So, I think that if he is in shape and playing, his skill will shine into old age.

    I think that the risk factor is much more about whether he can stay healthy. He was on a special practice, game regiment even when he was in CSKA. Missing practices, managing minutes, etc. Even with that, he always missed 7-8 games in EL, and then who knows how many in the VTB. I know he will have a lighter load of games in Virtus, but still, at this age, we have to see how he holds up. He is of no use to them in the stands. Italy is not an elite BBall league anymore but one thing that has to be said is that it is a competitive league. Teams fights, every year there are surprises and the playoffs are almost always very competitive. Even at a lower level of basketball, you still have to be in good shape physically to make a difference there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Without quoting both posts just a joint answer.

    At some point people have to stop believing in the Obradovic and some kind of magic stick he has. He has never been a player development coach, whatever people may think. I have been closely following his career since he was a player He is a guy who can select players well and fit them into a scheme. Players over time adjust to the scheme better and find ways to be successful or not. There are plenty of examples of players he has chosen that haven't worked out.

    He likes consistency in his rosters, this is why his teams don't have wild oscilations in terms of performance. This is why guys like Vesely, Datome, Kalinic, Sloukas, Dixon are there. He wants the core in place in order to run the system. Then he plugs some players and hopes to make a jump. The difference between PAO years and now is that at that time, he had EL and FIBA HoF talents on his roster year in and year out, so he was much more dangerous to win the chip, than now. He is close with Fener but not nearly as dominant as he used to be.

    Guys who have improved under him are people who are notorious gym rats and work on their game. He has said it in the past also, that it is player's responsibility to work on their craft. He should teach them how to play in a team environment. Guys who have been successful in Obradovic's system are guys who are willing to let their ego go and put team first. And now we come back to D. Williams.

    Williams is an ego-maniac. A guy who never really learned how to play basketball at a high level. He was always blessed physically and that made him lazy in terms of development. I have followed him since his NCAA days. He dominated the competition there purely on his physical attributes. His NBA career is a caution story for young prospect how to waste your talent. We are talking about a guy who never wanted to work hard and improve his craft. He is a guy that doesn't have the basketball IQ to have the ball in his hands and play on the bounce, but guess what that is actually the only time he has an actual advantage on the floor. In a half-court set he sucks, as a PnR roller he still sucks, with a ball in his hands you will lose your hair. He is a guy that can give you good transition play, an offensive rebound score here and there and then maybe run by some slow forwards guarding him. He is also dead in his development curve. That is for me a guy not worthy of a championship roster.

    You can take it whichever you like. You can talk about having him in a lesser role, Obradovic magic stick. It just doesn't work like that in basketball. You can't become something completely different by switching teams. You can get a new role or use your skillset more efficiently, but you are still the same player.

    I seriously don't understand every discussion is coming to at some point directly linking everything to Obradovic's capability, his level, like he doesn't have a magic stick bla bla bla.. I assume one of the both posts you mentioned is mine; and I have never said anything about Obradovic and i actually don't want to really go into that kind of a discussion about him.

    You quoted someone by claiming some players have not improved themselves at all and implied their improved stats were just an illusion of being a part of different type of/better teams and i responded that this is not correct. Wannamaker didn't perform better in FB you are right but the other players you mentioned; changed their basketball, adapted and got better over years.

    I'm not William's gym friend nor his friend from high school to be able to decide his personality but obviously i have more confidence on Gherardini and Obradovic's connections to collect information about him, getting to know him and having the ability to judge the risk of his suitability for our team than your comments and your many years of following him since his NCAA days.

    In any case as they hadn't been right in every move, as they don't have a magic stick; with the least Williams would provide us as he did in Bayern, might be seen less risky comparing the alternatives in the market right now.

  8. #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saybia View Post
    I'm not William's gym friend nor his friend from high school to be able to decide his personality but obviously i have more confidence on Gherardini and Obradovic's connections to collect information about him, getting to know him and having the ability to judge the risk of his suitability for our team than your comments and your many years of following him since his NCAA days.

    In any case as they hadn't been right in every move, as they don't have a magic stick; with the least Williams would provide us as he did in Bayern, might be seen less risky comparing the alternatives in the market right now.
    Time will tell. 1.5 million contracts come with hefty expectations and his performance will be judged according to that.

    I just don't want to hear the excuses or justifications after though. No stories like ,,He was a very important player for us etc...".

    I would gladly always say I was wrong if somehow Williams becomes a monster in Fener and delivers massive performances.

  9. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Time will tell. 1.5 million contracts come with hefty expectations and his performance will be judged according to that.

    I just don't want to hear the excuses or justifications after though. No stories like ,,He was a very important player for us etc...".

    I would gladly always say I was wrong if somehow Williams becomes a monster in Fener and delivers massive performances.
    I think the way you put the things are incorrect. We are paying 1.5 m euro to an existing ability, suitability to team and the potential.

    For time to be able to tell us, give us an alternative name with the same amount of money that FB can get more from his existing ability, suitability and potential?

    Then we can discuss and compare this move better in the future with some concrete criteria.

  10. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saybia View Post
    I think the way you put the things are incorrect. We are paying 1.5 m euro to an existing ability, suitability to team and the potential.

    For time to be able to tell us, give us an alternative name with the same amount of money that FB can get more from his existing ability, suitability and potential?

    Then we can discuss and compare this move better in the future with some concrete criteria.
    Already did in the previous pages, but you obviously didn't read.

    When you talk about current ability, suitability, and potential, what is your criteria for a 1.5m player at his potential? What you would be satisfied with? If he does as well as let's say Melli did in his Fener stay, is that enough? Do you think he could approach Melli's numbers for example?

    My criteria for EL would be the following, for a 1.5 mil player:

    - Starter at 25min/game and a top 3 player on the team who is a contender.
    - Ability to overtake games and win them by himself
    - Ability to play at a high level versus other elite players at his position.
    - Must have several skills that are at an elite level for EL. (PnR play, Shooting, Rebounding, Rim protection, On-the-Ball defense, Transition etc. you can pick few).
    - Must be a consistent performer with very minor slumps during the year.
    - Must be a good locker room guy and not a cancer

    That would be my criteria to judge 1.5 mil players...
    -

  11. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Already did in the previous pages, but you obviously didn't read.

    When you talk about current ability, suitability, and potential, what is your criteria for a 1.5m player at his potential? What you would be satisfied with? If he does as well as let's say Melli did in his Fener stay, is that enough? Do you think he could approach Melli's numbers for example?

    My criteria for EL would be the following, for a 1.5 mil player:

    - Starter at 25min/game and a top 3 player on the team who is a contender.
    - Ability to overtake games and win them by himself
    - Ability to play at a high level versus other elite players at his position.
    - Must have several skills that are at an elite level for EL. (PnR play, Shooting, Rebounding, Rim protection, On-the-Ball defense, Transition etc. you can pick few).
    - Must be a consistent performer with very minor slumps during the year.
    - Must be a good locker room guy and not a cancer

    That would be my criteria to judge 1.5 mil players...
    -
    Price isnt necessarily related to abilities or skillset but market conditions. If there are few player on the market the price will increase. The nba demands the best 450 Player. If you add new one other player will be available but in the last years China disturbed this balance but not severly because China is not a place for competitive player but if the nba give g-league teams a budget of 20-30 million dollar then european basket will have to face its biggest problem.

  12. #1352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toruko View Post
    Price isnt necessarily related to abilities or skillset but market conditions. If there are few player on the market the price will increase. The nba demands the best 450 Player. If you add new one other player will be available but in the last years China disturbed this balance but not severly because China is not a place for competitive player but if the nba give g-league teams a budget of 20-30 million dollar then european basket will have to face its biggest problem.
    The price is relative to the market that stands, but it is also not elastic on all levels. Yes it might make a huge difference in a 200k to 500k range of players, since a difference in the market might be in getting a solid player or somebody who is barely useable. When we talk about 1.5 mil salaries, then we are talking about elite players in EL. Those are guys in Top 20 in the salaries in the EL. That is still the same today, as it was 3 or 5 or 7 years ago.

    When NBA takes the top talent from Europe, somebody has to replace those players and their production in Europe, so new players rise. Overall level of talent in Europe might decline, but the salaries will not. The EL in the period of 2000-2010 was more talented than it is now, for sure. Yet, less talented players still demand salaries in the EL, since they are at the moment the best you can have in the market. With the overall drop in the talent, you lose quality, but the numbers and salaries of the replacement talent stays the same. Same like in NBA. For example, there might be very few elite PFs left in the game nowadays, still some guys will still get a lot of money, since they are the best available at the position.

    Still, you haven't replied about the criteria. You have asked mine, I have given them, as well as the reason why I think they should be that. It's your turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Already did in the previous pages, but you obviously didn't read.

    When you talk about current ability, suitability, and potential, what is your criteria for a 1.5m player at his potential? What you would be satisfied with? If he does as well as let's say Melli did in his Fener stay, is that enough? Do you think he could approach Melli's numbers for example?

    My criteria for EL would be the following, for a 1.5 mil player:

    - Starter at 25min/game and a top 3 player on the team who is a contender.
    - Ability to overtake games and win them by himself
    - Ability to play at a high level versus other elite players at his position.
    - Must have several skills that are at an elite level for EL. (PnR play, Shooting, Rebounding, Rim protection, On-the-Ball defense, Transition etc. you can pick few).
    - Must be a consistent performer with very minor slumps during the year.
    - Must be a good locker room guy and not a cancer

    That would be my criteria to judge 1.5 mil players...
    -
    I'm sorry CoachZ i should have gone through all your academical research before having the courage of asking you a question.

    I asked you a name/names. Who fits your this astonishing set of criteria?

    Who would you be able to pick from the market with a budget of 1.5 million that should meet all of those expectations of yours?

  14. #1354
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Still, you haven't replied about the criteria. You have asked mine, I have given them, as well as the reason why I think they should be that. It's your turn.
    I guess you got confused that was me who asked you a question. And the question was with 1.5m budget who else would you go and grab from the current market, not your criteria.
    Thanks though for your hard work. And about that, i don't think that player exists for a long time now in this continent.

    But still, again, i'm asking; where can we buy a PF who can win the game by himself with 1.5 m ceiling? Point us to the right direction please!

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    Obradovic will challenge D-Will and I'm sure he will be great for Fener.

    Top signing and at the end of the day, someone was going to pay 1,5mil for D-Will either it was Milano or Fener. That is his market value with the scarcity of top line PF's especially if Singleton is asking for 2 mil contracts. Another option would have been Kuzminskas but he's more of a SF than PF.

    Fener have upgraded and on paper they are stronger than last season. RM are the same which means older we have to see what CSKA's guards will be, but IMO Fener are currrently favorites for the title.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
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    Jimmer Fredette wife's video where he will play next year.

    http://www.gazzetta.gr/basketball/ba...tin-ellada-vid

    Welcome to the mighty Shamrock, Jimmer!!
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    For example Nigel Hayes that was in Galata. He is a much more complete player compared to Williams and I am sure that you could sign him for half the amount you gave Williams. Or do you think that Zalgiris gave him 1m Vince Hunter for AEK as well.

    I know at least 5 G League players that fit the profile as well and can make a difference. I am not even talking at 1.5mil where you could've gotten pretty much anyone outside of a few players.

    A waste of money...
    Chris Boucher and Christian Wood from G League might give everything FB (and Efes) looking for. Both can play PF and pretty good outside scoring as well as rim protection playing as C. Both could sign contracts around 600-700 K$
    Go Efes Pilsen - Go Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Larkin was a 1st round pick who was one of the best PnR scorers in NCAA that year. He is extremely athletic, regardless of his size, and probably has the quickest 1st step in EL by a mile. He has always excelled in the PnR heavy offense because he can create his shot at an elite level out of PnR. Slashing, midrange, 3pt off the bounce he can do it all at a high level. He is not an elite passer/creator out of PnR but he does quite well, more than enough to keep the defense honest and not collapse on him.

    Baskonia has by far the best scouting department in Europe, so no wonder they saw his potential. He was given a role less suited to his skillset, since he was asked to run the offense and create for others at a much higher level than he is capable of. With Efes, Ataman actually identified his skills better and turn him loose on teams, who struggled to keep up with him in the PnR. He creates so much room with his pace and first step, that it is a big question mark who to put on him to defend him.

    He is a gambler on defense, and outside of exploding in the passing lanes or try to gamble for a steal, he will not give you much. Also, in order to be successful, he needs to be surrounded with at least another creator who can play with the ball. When his scoring is not going, he tends to destroy the team offense. The key to Efes succes was that they also had Micic and Simon, who are both good creators with the ball so Larking opened so much for them, they could do many things.

    I don't know a single team in EL who wouldn't like Larkin to be in their squad though. What he does well, is NBA-level talent. He has deficiencies but his elite skills outweigh all of his cons.
    One of the best comments I have ever read about Larkin.
    Single point to add. His drives are so effective that to protect the rim, defence are getting closer inside and he can easily pass to the corners so forwards can shoot. That's why we had Moerman increased his 3pts % from 33 to 40 and Anderson 34 to 43.
    Go Efes Pilsen - Go Turkey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Efesdxb View Post
    Chris Boucher and Christian Wood from G League might give everything FB (and Efes) looking for. Both can play PF and pretty good outside scoring as well as rim protection playing as C. Both could sign contracts around 600-700 K$
    Boucher so weak for EL level and he is so slow for PF but Wood can be a good signing for Fener.

  20. #1360
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    Quote Originally Posted by saras View Post
    https://twitter.com/Andrej_Sazonov_/...43775356592133

    sazonov said he was 100% fredette rejected our offer and promised to delete his twitter account if he signs. we are waiting for it
    Poor Sazanov who must delete his account now to prove he's a man of his word.

    https://www.paobc.gr/page.ashx?pid=2&aid=59187
    Last edited by EverGreen; 07-15-2019 at 07:56 AM.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

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