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Thread: Fiba World Cup 2023 Philippines

  1. #1241
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    No one is saying any country or continent (Europe) has a monopoly of components of a system (like Princeton, DDO or swing). If someone is suggesting that Tab is exclusively suggesting to use the swing offense components alone and to ditch all the advantage strengths of the DDO, you simply don't understand basketball and haven't been paying attention

    There is a misconception here about what people are referring to the European style, Europe does not have a monopoly or own the swing and it doesn't mean if the Princeton offense is from America that its not used and similar to some European teams (the schemes are used by some European teams) , LOL the DDO was invented by Waldberg in the US, and used by Kentucky does it mean then its a purely American system owned by them or if Gilas uses it, anyone who uses it plays like the Philippines, this is stupid.

    It's as simple as this, the pro leagues in Europe use FiBA rules so alot of the same schemes played at the highest level of Pro league that uses FIBA rules are found mostly in European teams (quite naturally).
    So when you play at the world level, most of the advance body of knowledge of how best to take advantage of FIBA rules and style are found in European national teams and the coaches who coach in Europe (the best league using FiBA). Obviously if you have very little experience with that style and rules at that world level you're at a disadvantage. (ask those Argentinan coaches if they coached in Euro league and you will get it)
    Last edited by analyzed; 05-07-2020 at 06:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by live_evil View Post
    Any coach who will say that the Philippines has the advantage in speed in international games has no place in coaching. I agree that it is a complete myth. Did you guys see how Tony Parker completely manhandled our supposedly faster guards?
    Technically it's not speed, but quickness. Because of our smaller guards, we have a lower center of gravity that's why we can change direction much quicker than taller opponents. Again usually. And our offense, when we do dribble handoffs, this helps our guards to have a running start when catching the ball and with 45-degree cuts, we can get separation of our backpedaling defenders. Tony wasn't faster than Romeo, he has stronger than Romeo that why he was able to bring the ball to the basket. Similarly, Romeo has able to penetrate the lane because of his quick moves with the ball.

  3. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by analyzed View Post
    No one is saying any country or continent (Europe) has a monopoly of components of a system (like Princeton, DDO or swing). If someone is suggesting that Tab is exclusively suggesting to use the swing offense components alone and to ditch all the advantage strengths of the DDO, you simply don't understand basketball and haven't been paying attention

    There is a misconception here about what people are referring to the European style, Europe does not have a monopoly or own the swing and it doesnt mean if components of say the Princeton offense are similar to some European teams that the schemes are not used by some European teams , LOL the DDO was invented by Waldberg in the US, and used by Kentucky does it mean then its a purely American system owned by them or if Gilas uses it, anyone who uses it plays like the Philippines, this is stupid.

    It's as simple as this, the pro leagues in Europe use FiBA rules so a lot of the same schemes played at the highest level of Pro league that uses FIBA rules are found mostly in European teams (quite naturally).
    So when you play at the world level, most of the advance body of knowledge of how best to take advantage of FIBA rules and style are found in European national teams and the coaches who coach in Europe (the best league using FiBA). Obviously if you have very little experience with that style and rules at that world level you're at a disadvantage. (ask those Argentinan coaches if they coached in Euro league and you will get it)
    I was shock that he didn't use Swing offense that much and rely on DDO against taller opponents. The way he preaches swing offense during interviews, I thought it will be our main sets. Yet he when back to DDO even during OQT in 2016. Ofcourse, as a great coach, he work around what his players can do best.

    There is no monopoly but certain teams and regions use certain plays because of the kind of basketball players they use. Princeton, DDO, and UCLA plays are predicated to use the athleticism of American players/ Quick cuts, Alley-oop, strong penetrations were standard in American plays because of the kind of players they are. While Europeans are more on multiple screens, stretch Bigs, and creating mismatches because of the kind of players they are. You will have a different play if you have Sabonis compare to a Shaq.

    Regarding pro leagues rules, yes a disadvantage to USA not using FIBA rules but .....

  4. #1244
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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    I was shock that he didn't use Swing offense that much and rely on DDO against taller opponents. The way he preaches swing offense during interviews, I thought it will be our main sets. Yet he when back to DDO even during OQT in 2016. Ofcourse, as a great coach, he work around what his players can do best.

    There is no monopoly but certain teams and regions use certain plays because of the kind of basketball players they use. Princeton, DDO, and UCLA plays are predicated to use the athleticism of American players/ Quick cuts, Alley-oop, strong penetrations were standard in American plays because of the kind of players they are. While Europeans are more on multiple screens, stretch Bigs, and creating mismatches because of the kind of players they are. You will have a different play if you have Sabonis compare to a Shaq.

    Regarding pro leagues rules, yes a disadvantage to USA not using FIBA rules but .....
    >I was shock that he didn't use Swing offense that much and rely on DDO against taller opponents. The way he preaches swing offense during interviews

    Because Tab was given very little time to fully implement his system. He uses dribble drive because majority of PBA players are already used to that kind of offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    >I was shock that he didn't use Swing offense that much and rely on DDO against taller opponents. The way he preaches swing offense during interviews

    Because Tab was given very little time to fully implement his system. He uses dribble drive because majority of PBA players are already used to that kind of offense.
    Preparation time is always an issue. But both Chot and Tab had the same length of time to prepare the team for Asia Cup 2013 and 2015. Both coaches had training camps abroad.

    As what Coach Chot said, maybe a local coach can adapt to players attitude and habits better than the foreign coach. Able to teach the players better and players listened to local coach much easier. Thats why it was a good thing for Coach Tab to handle Ateneo so we will have deeper understanding of how a Pinoy basketball think and act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    >I was shock that he didn't use Swing offense that much and rely on DDO against taller opponents. The way he preaches swing offense during interviews

    Because Tab was given very little time to fully implement his system. He uses dribble drive because majority of PBA players are already used to that kind of offense.
    https://www.philstar.com/sports/2020...the-last-dance

    By 2002 Tab wasn't using the triangle, what this really shows is Tab is not a one system guy, he adjust to the personnel and players he had
    In the case of 2015/16.with Blatche and Castro two players who were ball heavy dribble drive, and familiar with the DDO, with little prep, the most sensible thing to do is go to that strength.. Do note Filipino bigs hardly anyone comes remotely to playing like Blatche, (so doubt u use DDO with Kai etc)
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    https://www.google.co.nz/amp/sports....otential-67993

    FIBA: Time investment key to unlocking Gilas Pilipinas' potential says Chot

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    Andrej Lemanis

    I said this before. Hehe

    "All options are always on the table," he said during his session in the Hoop Coaches International Webinar on Wednesday hosted by Blackwater.

    xxxx

    "As a coach, you always got to keep your options open cause it's a profession. It is what it is. You got to go where the jobs are and the job is tenuous and every coach is a day away from being fired. Every option is always something you explore."

    xxxx

    "What immediately stood out was the energy with which they played, how hard they played, and the passion which they played which I really liked. I really liked those aspects and those attributes. I thought they were really skilled as well," he said.

    xxxx

    "One of the things that I'm not aware of or underappreciated before I got in the international stage was how big basketball is in the Philippines. And it's just awesome to be involved in an environment like that and to see how much it means to everyone in the Philippines, and I think that translates in the national team," he said.

    I hope will see his Euro Ballscreen Motion if he gets it. Wishful thinking. Hehe

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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    Preparation time is always an issue. But both Chot and Tab had the same length of time to prepare the team for Asia Cup 2013 and 2015. Both coaches had training camps abroad.

    As what Coach Chot said, maybe a local coach can adapt to players attitude and habits better than the foreign coach. Able to teach the players better and players listened to local coach much easier. Thats why it was a good thing for Coach Tab to handle Ateneo so we will have deeper understanding of how a Pinoy basketball think and act.
    His system takes years to fully grasp though. Do you honestly think he can do it in just a couple of months of training? Familiarity is important. How many coaches in the Philippines run his offense? Comparing both is useless without providing any context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    His system takes years to fully grasp though. Do you honestly think he can do it in just a couple of months of training? Familiarity is important. How many coaches in the Philippines run his offense? Comparing both is useless without providing any context.
    yeah, it took awhile before admu grasp tab’s system..

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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    His system takes years to fully grasp though. Do you honestly think he can do it in just a couple of months of training? Familiarity is important. How many coaches in the Philippines run his offense? Comparing both is useless without providing any context.
    I dont but he had two years to implement and teach it. What I am saying again was, swing offense might not be a good offense for us thats why it was drop even by Coach Tab. If Coach Tab wanted to he could live or die from it. But again, he is a great coach and realized quickly that swing offense wasn't the for us.

  12. #1252
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    Watching Ateneo and the Feb window there is very little of the swing offense component being used, I happen to have a son whose been in Tab's practices both for Ateneo and Gilas and he describes to me in detail how Tab wants things run, and it's not the swing, yes there is thrb principle of moving side to side and skip passing rather than dribbling, but for the most it's high ball screen, handoffs and flow. With of course dribble drive if the defense over plays the passing lanes and plays.

    The principles are simply the schemes learned from collective experience internatiolly of which European teams are in the forefront of innovation for FiBA ball

    There is really no debate if its swing or DDO or Princeton or triangle, its litterally all of the above depending on situation and players strength

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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    I dont but he had two years to implement and teach it. What I am saying again was, swing offense might not be a good offense for us thats why it was drop even by Coach Tab. If Coach Tab wanted to he could live or die from it. But again, he is a great coach and realized quickly that swing offense wasn't the for us.
    That doesn't make sense. Why it won't be good for us when he's successful with it in Ateneo Blue Eagles? Just like what Analyzed said Tab adapted DDO because our players are more familiar with it


    As you can see here he uses both his offense and DDO

  14. #1254
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    I've had the benefit of Tab running one my scrimmage, which is essentially DDO with high ball screens (guard centric) and dribble focus, then after a few posesions Tab called timeout he called the players for a hudle and he instructs the guards my son being one of them, to make the entry pass to the post, goes on to explain why and his philosophy, next few plays it works!
    The point I'm making, it isn't one idealogy or system that Tab preaches it's what is best for the situation base on how reads the game and the players.
    Tab has already mentioned the players he has in mind, you better believe he has a system specific to the players he has in mind, and it's not one system but a combination of everything to maximise our strength
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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    That doesn't make sense. Why it won't be good for us when he's successful with it in Ateneo Blue Eagles? Just like what Analyzed said Tab adapted DDO because our players are more familiar with it


    As you can see here he uses both his offense and DDO
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    players like Kuoame,Thirdy,Nieto and Go will have little to no adjustment.I just hope the newbies will adjust quickly.a bit of ot: do you think Jaime Orme can be a good interim naturalized player?
    "How small ball works: Tall Skilled beats small skilled every time,but small skilled beats tall stiff every time" - Kevin McHale

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    Quote Originally Posted by analyzed View Post
    I've had the benefit of Tab running one my scrimmage, which is essentially DDO with high ball screens (guard centric) and dribble focus, then after a few posesions Tab called timeout he called the players for a hudle and he instructs the guards my son being one of them, to make the entry pass to the post, goes on to explain why and his philosophy, next few plays it works!
    The point I'm making, it isn't one idealogy or system that Tab preaches it's what is best for the situation base on how reads the game and the players.
    Tab has already mentioned the players he has in mind, you better believe he has a system specific to the players he has in mind, and it's not one system but a combination of everything to maximise our strength
    I have been making the same point DDO is not dead and not an old fashion offense, alot of teams still run it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zairex View Post
    Actually, we generate more offense with DDO than Swing offense even in Tab tenure as a coach. Seeing Blatch on top and our guards adhere more on DDO than swing offense. Swing offense has a post threat that TAB didn't force on us even with Blatch or Fajardo on the lineup. I really want to know what team with similar height and skill level has beaten a tall, skillful Euro team. Again, against Asian and similar height and skill level, swing might work but it will neglect our strongest advantage which is quickness and penetration.

    Just like our 2014 WC team, Chot did utilized alot of other offenses and not just DDO. check this link. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ogq7bFI0DY

    My other concern about swing offense is that it is known to Euro teams. So they know exactly the offense and its SWOT. They will not overreact on our offense.

    To me, we need a system that will fully utilized our advantages and the most important underlying aspect is, our opponent must OVER REACT to our offense and double-teaming us to create openings in our offense. Like how Crotia OVER REACTed on our DDO to open up Chan. Remember, Chan is 6'2" at best and is being guarded by Saric who is 6'8". how i the world did Chan can shoot over him. When Saric over reacted on penetration of Jimmy Alapag and poorly closing out on Chan.
    Exactly, euro style ball was built to fit European players which are typically very tall in every position (taller than the Americans even), not very quick and athletic. Typical Filipino players are quick, athletic but small. In comparison, we are closer to the Americans except that we are much smaller while compared to the typical Europeans, there are no similarities. But there are also the americas who also quick and athletic but are smaller than the Americans but are considerably taller than us - they are the closest to us. That's the cue. And I think we will catch up in size with them Argentines, Puerto Ricans etc in 2023 or we can even go taller if we intend to with Kai at 7'2 (might be even taller by then) " aj 6'11, junmar 6'10, japeth 6'9, kobe 6'6, 6'8 NP if we go with mccullough, then either 6'8 balti or 6'7 Rosario then you get decent sized guards like perez, bollick, Ramos etc.

    Question,
    Can these established European coaches adjust to the kind of players we have like tab baldwin? I think all these arguments will cease if only tab chooses to coach gilas again. But didn't our resident insider mr analyzed has time and again said that tab will not. I hope he's changed his mind.
    We have this chance to fit JC in the gilas team, why are you putting in effort on finding ways to exclude him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by B L A C K S U N View Post
    That doesn't make sense. Why it won't be good for us when he's successful with it in Ateneo Blue Eagles? Just like what Analyzed said Tab adapted DDO because our players are more familiar with it


    As you can see here he uses both his offense and DDO
    Because they'll be competing in the world cup, not in the UAAP. I think it's safe to say that ateneo is one of the tallest teams in the UAAP, if not the tallest while looking at the projected lineup for the Gilas 2023 world cup bound team, even with Kai, Aj and junmar in it, we still won't be as tall as the European powerhouses
    We have this chance to fit JC in the gilas team, why are you putting in effort on finding ways to exclude him?

    - lurklurk

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    Quote Originally Posted by astigram04 View Post
    Exactly, euro style ball was built to fit European players which are typically very tall in every position (taller than the Americans even), not very quick and athletic. Typical Filipino players are quick, athletic but small. In comparison, we are closer to the Americans except that we are much smaller while compared to the typical Europeans, there are no similarities. But there are also the americas who also quick and athletic but are smaller than the Americans but are considerably taller than us - they are the closest to us. That's the cue. And I think we will catch up in size with them Argentines, Puerto Ricans etc in 2023 or we can even go taller if we intend to with Kai at 7'2 (might be even taller by then) " aj 6'11, junmar 6'10, japeth 6'9, kobe 6'6, 6'8 NP if we go with mccullough, then either 6'8 balti or 6'7 Rosario then you get decent sized guards like perez, bollick, Ramos etc.

    Question,
    Can these established European coaches adjust to the kind of players we have like tab baldwin? I think all these arguments will cease if only tab chooses to coach gilas again. But didn't our resident insider mr analyzed has time and again said that tab will not. I hope he's changed his mind.
    nope.. tab won’t coach again for gilas.. still remembers how some treated him when he was the coach.. he prefer the position that he’s in right now..

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