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Thread: 2019 World Cup Qualifying Odyssey!

  1. #701
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    When we gonna play 2 centers and half court offence most of the time,we need players that can shoot after double teams.Janavicius don't fit our 2 bigs at all .Look where basketball is going on if you can't shoot you are more and more useless on highest level when defences toughest up in playoffs.Role players must be able at least to make wide open shots to stay on the floor.If you are average player and can't shoot you are going nwhere on high level basketball.I better take Milaknis/Juskevicius anyday in todays basketball atleast they are good fit with our two biggest stars for those 5-10minutes .

    We have 2 bigs that we have to built team around them what fits them the best,not what has more sexier game to our tastes.

    All those 10-12 players that maybe will make or not nt,I would be asking questions are they fitting with our best players or not as complimentary pieces .Either way defence will Seibutis/Grigonis job on elite guards not our 11-12 bench player.

  2. #702

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    When we gonna play 2 centers and half court offence most of the time,we need players that can shoot after double teams.Janavicius don't fit our 2 bigs at all .Look where basketball is going on if you can't shoot you are more and more useless on highest level when defences toughest up in playoffs.Role players must be able at least to make wide open shots to stay on the floor.If you are average player and can't shoot you are going nwhere on high level basketball.I better take Milaknis/Juskevicius anyday in todays basketball atleast they are good fit with our two biggest stars for those 5-10minutes .

    We have 2 bigs that we have to built team around them what fits them the best,not what has more sexier game to our tastes.

    All those 10-12 players that maybe will make or not nt,I would be asking questions are they fitting with our best players or not as complimentary pieces .Either way defence will Seibutis/Grigonis job on elite guards not our 11-12 bench player.
    You missed couple of things here. First, PG should facilitate and to be aggressive, slash in, go for a lay-up or a pass. Some-one has to create for those 2 bigs you know Janavičius shouldn't be a scorer (even though he shoots respectable thirty five %), he should facilitate people in all other positions and to be aggressive going to the basket once the play is broken.
    Also you are overrating Juškevičius. How many points he scored against Autralia 2016? How many against Greece 2017? He yet never proved he can deliver against elite opponent in the real tournament (2014WC was a B level international tournament). Milaknis delivered in 2015 couple of big shots and I would trust him more than Juškevičius surely, but he's such a poor defender.
    Lastly, you continuing to talk about offence (even though wrongly, because you need creative shooters these days, not simple shooters as Juskevicius and Milaknis) while we stand zero chance if we can't fix tough and respectable defence. That's the corner stone. Forget about offence if you don't have that, it's a sweep for us Offence comes from tough defence, you get some easy points in transition, you control, slow down the tempo of opponent which is the only way we can dig into the opponent and stand a chance to win.
    To me Janavičius is way better fit because he complements the main priority - defence - and second most important - facilitating our star bigs. You can play Janavičius with Grigonis/Seibutis (no brainer) and even to go Janavičius with Kalnietis/Lekavičius (both can shoot and are a bit of combos anyway).
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  3. #703

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    As for Milaknis ( a little addition), I would want him more if we had Kazlauskas or Saras as the coach. Now I don't want him because Adomaitis would use him in trivial way again (as he does with any player) and that would open defensive issues of Milas, and his shooting touch wouldn't be precisely utilized anyway.
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  4. #704
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    I haven't seen Janavicius play for a few years now to be honest with you...what is the current level he's playing at and what are his numbers/impact currently on the court?
    Žygimantas Janavičius currently has the leading Efficiency Rating of 16.18 in the LKL. His assists per game of 5.47 is behind only the 5.85 of Dovis Bičkauskis. Moreover his play has improved over the last few weeks and he absolutely destroyed Žalgiris with 20 points, 10 assists and an Efficiency Rating of 31 in 29 minutes of play yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    For a tough, knockout level type of games against Australia and Canada, I choose Janavičius instead of Juškevičius because the latter is instant liability at D and he doesn't provide facilitating, only streaky shooting. To me, Janavičius gutsy defence and some facilitating/slashing at O is better than Juškevičius soft defence and shooting.
    I'd lean toward choosing Žygimantas Janavičius for his tough gutsy defence and facilitating skills over Lukas Lekavičius right now. At only 1.83 metres and 76 kilograms, Lekavičius lacks the size to have any chance against Australia's and Canada's bigger guards. He'll be physically dominated on defence. That's something Coach Kazlauskas learned about Lekavičius in 2016 once the real games began. At 1.93 metres and 85 kilograms, Janavičius has better size for a PG these days.

    Last edited by Hepcat; 05-01-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  5. #705
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    As for Milaknis ( a little addition), I would want him more if we had Kazlauskas or Saras as the coach.
    I just wouldn't want Artūras Milaknis this year period. (Well maybe in the stands....) His play this year has been simply mediocre in whatever league. In 22:38 minutes per Euroleague game, his Efficiency averaged 5.3. In 20:13 minutes per LKL game, his Efficiency has averaged 5.8. He's a very one-dimensional sniper whose shooting is past its peak.

    Last edited by Hepcat; 05-01-2019 at 09:13 PM.

  6. #706
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    No. "Sudden" is the wrong word. "Steadily" is a better one. Sadly there's been a steady deterioration in Kavaliauskas' play in the last few years.

    LKL ------ GM -- MPG --- PPG --- REB --- EFF

    2014-15 - 47 -- 19:25 - 12.6 --- 5.5 --- 17.4
    2015-16 - 40 -- 20.25 - 10.8 --- 4.3 --- 14.2
    2016-17 - 39 -- 12.55 -- 8.0 --- 3.4 ---- 9.5
    2017-18 - 46 -- 13:41 -- 7.4 --- 3.1 ---- 9.0
    2018-19 - 17 -- 14:00 -- 7.1 --- 2.6 ---- 8.1

    Euroleague - GM -- MPG --- PPG --- REB --- EFF

    2016-17 ---- 29 - 11:12 ---- 5.5 --- 2.7 ---- 5.0
    2017-18 ---- 36 - 12:42 ---- 5.7 --- 2.6 ---- 5.1
    2018-19 ---- 20 - 11:15 ---- 5.1 --- 2.5 ---- 5.4

    Admittedly the decline is more evident in his LKL numbers, but I'm afraid that it's still there.

    No, but they may now be better than Kavaliauskas is right now since Father Time seems to have taken his toll on Kavaliauskas and the skills he brings to the court. Coach Adomaitis will need to make the call this summer.

    Since he couldn't deliver against Fenerbahce, does his capability of delivering against teams such as Australia, Canada and France this summer not concern you at all?

    It's another time when you look at stats and see only numbers... In 2014-16 he played in Rytas, had much bigger role, was captain and leader of the team, then he moved to Zalgiris where he is 2nd option as center all the time. Feel the difference? Of course age caught up with him, but not drastically, otherwise he wouldn't be in Zalgiris. He was kinda late bloomer. In Zalgiris he started to play wiser, reads the defense better, even makes less dumb fouls which was haunting him all his career, with Saras he learned quite a lot. This season when healthy he had some great games. It's not like he'll be our saviour, but he is save option to come off the bench and play some 10mins as hard as he can. He has experience, which is very important on such level tournament, an he is still best option we can get from all these LKL centers. We simply has no one better, that's reality. If there'd be Gudaitis, we could not discuss about it at all. Of course for some higher intelligence spieces who visits us here from superior galaxy is hard to get it (I don't mean you of course, but we have one here), but let them be. Regarding Fenerbahce series, it doesn't concern me. I followed him all season long and I know he can be better, let's say right before PO, in game of the season vs Real in Madrid he had 10+2+2 in 13mins, so he can ball

    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    I just wouldn't want Artūras Milaknis this year period. (Well maybe in the stands....) His play this year has been simply mediocre in whatever league. In 22:38 minutes per Euroleague game, his Efficiency averaged 5.3. In 20:13 minutes per LKL game, his Efficiency has averaged 5.8. He's a very one-dimensional sniper whose shooting is past its peak.

    Milaknis is not type of player from whom you should ask high efficiency. He isn't a rebounder, isn't assistant, he is shooter. In right system he would be very valuable like in Zalgiris is. He had bad series vs Fener, but had some great games too. In regular season he had 43% from three out of 4-5 attempts. That's good number. He can go right from the bench and make some shots, he doesn't need all the game build around him and ball in his hands. Anyway, it's all up to coach here. If Adomaitis has smth prepared for Milaknis then he'll take him, if he doesn't see him in his plans, then he won't. I'm fine with any decision, it all depends on system


  7. #707

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    I'd lean toward choosing Žygimantas Janavičius for his tough gutsy defence and facilitating skills over Lukas Lekavičius right now.
    Man...I mean...

    Nah, I won't go with all the explicit answer... I'll just say that your sentence is nearly as ridiculous as say "I would lean towards choosing Ehodas instead of Kuzminskas because Ehodas is taller and tougher under boards (or whatever)". The overall gap between Janavičius and Lekavičius is more or less the same as between Ehodas and Kuzminskas.

    Hepcat, no disrespect, I personally like you as polite and sincere poster, but you simply not on the map of Lith BB and those direct trips to LKL stat sheets don't help you either (specially that you constantly miss the perspective of LKL team's ranking judging different players stats value). You have to watch players playing, that would surely help you to come up with more objective view who is who on the Lithuanian BB map.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 05-02-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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  8. #708
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    The problem I'm having is that you have an enormous amount of confidence in Lekavičius based on not much more than hope. Yes he's on the roster of an above average Euroleague team, but that's it. His numbers in limited time with Panathinaikos have been what I would term "alright". With Team Lietuva in qualifiers over the last year his 8.8 points, 2.3 assists and 8.8 Efiiciency over an average of 19.8 minutes in four games have been workmanlike but not spectacular.

    And I'm still very much concerned about Coach Kazlauskas' observation in 2015 that he didn't like seeing opposing coaches immediately trying to take advantage of the mismatch provided by Lekavičius' lack of size on defence.

    Now I have an open mind when it comes to roster spots. If and when Lekavičius starts delivering for Team Lietuva, I'll concede that a spot on the team is his for the taking. But I'm not willing to concede him a spot on Team Lietuva right now simply because he's a backup with Panathinaikos.

    You however have been building him up as Lithuania's best PG since Šarūnas Jasikevičius and the saviour the team needs in the back court. I'm afraid you're setting all of us Lithuanian basketball fans up for disappointment. The jury is still out on Lekavičius.


  9. #709

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    The problem I'm having is that you have an enormous amount of confidence in Lekavičius based on not much more than hope. Yes he's on the roster of an above average Euroleague team, but that's it. His numbers in limited time with Panathinaikos have been what I would term "alright". With Team Lietuva in qualifiers over the last year his 8.8 points, 2.3 assists and 8.8 Efiiciency over an average of 19.8 minutes in four games have been workmanlike but not spectacular.

    And I'm still very much concerned about Coach Kazlauskas' observation in 2015 that he didn't like seeing opposing coaches immediately trying to take advantage of the mismatch provided by Lekavičius' lack of size on defence.

    Now I have an open mind when it comes to roster spots. If and when Lekavičius starts delivering for Team Lietuva, I'll concede that a spot on the team is his for the taking. But I'm not willing to concede him a spot on Team Lietuva right now simply because he's a backup with Panathinaikos.

    You however have been building him up as Lithuania's best PG since Šarūnas Jasikevičius and the saviour the team needs in the back court. I'm afraid you're setting all of us Lithuanian basketball fans up for disappointment. The jury is still out on Lekavičius.

    I mean if had a talent pool of USA than sure, let's take better ones What would you offering instead of him? I mean, you even question the fact that Lekavičius is a lock, right? Well, I can assure you, you are super original here, as 99% of people who understand Lithuanian basketball would see Lekavičius as a lock.

    Now, 2015 Kazlauskas words...Do you have a precise quote? Did you notice it's it's 2019 already? Do you realize that Kazlauskas said that in 2015, before 2016/2017 season when Lekavicius broke out in EL and attracted PAO's attention? You drag his argument for 4 years now as the only reason to cut him out of NT? You come here and discuss Lekavičius with serious face while admitting that you didn't see a single game of Lekavičius playing for Žalgiris in EL. You don't even know the player, except for few games in NT (his stats are solid at least for a back-up, did you expect him to drop 15pts and 6as in 19min?).

    I mean, man, you're just coming with random arguments not even watching a player on the constant basis (to say the least). Your ideas that after Kalnietis there might be stronger point guards than Lekavicius at the moment is compete cosmos and the same goes with Butkevicius over Ulanovas as you implied here many times. This is nonsense and you have no idea what you're taking about.

    Lekavicius may suck, choke, fall, screw up in WC, but there's 2 best point guards in Lithuania - Kalnietis and Lekavicius - and literally no-one at the very moment is even close. Deal with that.
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  10. #710

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    When you notice some Liths wondering in the corner who can do that in Euroleague, let us know, at least I'm very curious
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtPbNgmMfUA
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  11. #711
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Gudaitis' recovery is progressing faster than expected, he might be ready for WC

  12. #712
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    That would be great, but reading whole interview, it left me impression that it's more a dream than reality. He might be fine in time, but I doubt he will take a risk or it would be wise to risk at all. Gudaitis has all his career is infront of him, if he'll rush things up, it might be too costly


  13. #713

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    Rehab period always very individual. Looks like so far he has exceeded the status quo precess as he can run already and work with some weights. I think it's more than a dream knowing that Gudaitis is still 25, his body is at the physical peak, maybe he's even a fast healer. If Gudaitis will feel that he's ready physically, he should play. That kind of athleticism, toughness, rebounding and blocking is the best we have after JV and Sabonis. To me, physically ready Gudaitis prevails overall ready Kavaliauskas, even if I would be very glad to get any of those.

    But Gudaitis for 10-15 minutes coming of the bench is a beast, a bull which in some games would be very hard to contain.

    Here's a good video with Gudaitis, individual workouts in Milano and video examples how these workputs translate to Euroleague's game:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UTFWp4XQM4
    Last edited by Straight forward; 05-03-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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  14. #714

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    Imagine we eventually get both Gudaitis and Maciulis (even if they are 90% ready that's still great news for the NT) surprisingly. Than we basically have all the team fair and square except third SG position. Some could argue about Giedraitis, but to my tastes he reached too intriguing level not to take him as 11-12th player, thus he's a lock in book:

    Kalnietis, Lekavicius
    Grigonis, Seibutis (Milaknis/Juskevicius, Janavicius)
    Ulanovas, Giedraitis
    Sabonis, Kuzminskas, Maciulis
    Valanciunas, Gudaitis


    That would be absolute gold. Could be the most complete team since 2008 OG (not that it's close to 2008 team, but the best we had since than).
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  15. #715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Rehab period always very individual. Looks like so far he has exceeded the status quo precess as he can run already and work with some weights. I think it's more than a dream knowing that Gudaitis is still 25, his body is at the physical peak, maybe he's even a fast healer. If Gudaitis will feel that he's ready physically, he should play. That kind of athleticism, toughness, rebounding and blocking is the best we have after JV and Sabonis. To me, physically ready Gudaitis prevails overall ready Kavaliauskas, even if I would be very glad to get any of those.

    But Gudaitis for 10-15 minutes coming of the bench is a beast, a bull which in some games would be very hard to contain.
    Nobody is questioning Gudaitis capabilities and his value to a team or advantages over Kavaliauskas If he will be ready he not "should", but he will play. The question is how realistic is this scenario and how ready he might be. I only know Kaukenas with his toughness/physicality to overcome such injuries in 6 months, twice. Gudaitis said by himself that so far it's only big dream and he wants not only to participate, but to be in shape. He might start to play a bit in August, only few weeks before World Cup. It's a big risk to rush the things, very big one. Another injury like that and his career will be in jeopardy. No doubt that Milan will say big NO to playing in NT, the same words he will receive from Cleveland. It would be great to have him, even not at his best, but I don;t have much hope about it


  16. #716

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Nobody is questioning Gudaitis capabilities and his value to a team or advantages over Kavaliauskas If he will be ready he not "should", but he will play. The question is how realistic is this scenario and how ready he might be. I only know Kaukenas with his toughness/physicality to overcome such injuries in 6 months, twice. Gudaitis said by himself that so far it's only big dream and he wants not only to participate, but to be in shape. He might start to play a bit in August, only few weeks before World Cup. It's a big risk to rush the things, very big one. Another injury like that and his career will be in jeopardy. No doubt that Milan will say big NO to playing in NT, the same words he will receive from Cleveland. It would be great to have him, even not at his best, but I don;t have much hope about it
    Well that's pretty much the situation. I think it all goes down to how fast he will recover. No-one, including himself will force him to play. We can only expect that he's a fast healer, everyone has very individual body. Positive is that he exceeds so far. BTW, that source say that Kaukenas came back after 5 months. When the camp will start, Gudaitis will have 5.5 months of rehab under his belt, if he's a truly fast healer than it's possible. Not a big chances, but more than "hope", IMO, judging from all his interview.

    BTW, what a super cool guy. Most of current youngsters wouldn't even mention NT under his condition. The dude is just craving for the NT even if he will inevitably be shadowed by JV and Domas. Super anti D-Mo.
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  17. #717
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Imagine we eventually get both Gudaitis and Maciulis (even if they are 90% ready that's still great news for the NT) surprisingly. Than we basically have all the team fair and square except third SG position. Some could argue about Giedraitis, but to my tastes he reached too intriguing level not to take him as 11-12th player, thus he's a lock in book:

    Kalnietis, Lekavicius
    Grigonis, Seibutis (Milaknis/Juskevicius, Janavicius)
    Ulanovas, Giedraitis
    Sabonis, Kuzminskas, Maciulis
    Valanciunas, Gudaitis


    That would be absolute gold. Could be the most complete team since 2008 OG (not that it's close to 2008 team, but the best we had since than).
    2013 team was our best team in 10s decade tallent wise.2012 team maybe had even more tallent,but 3 of them was only big names,but veterans that was only 50% what they used to be.

    This 2019 is just solid team with alot of questions 2 players comming not playing like half a year,2 guard veterans 33 and 34 that will play big roles we will see how they bodies will react to to such tournament marathon.Im not sure this team how its badly balanced its even top 3 in this decade.

    but bravo atleast this time you dont put some shaky leg youngsters in our top 12 roster,but all grown up men
    Last edited by Shawshank; 05-03-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  18. #718

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    2013 team was our best team in 10s decade tallent wise.2012 team maybe had even more tallent,but 3 of them was only big names,but veterans that was only 50% what they used to be.

    This 2019 is just solid team with alot questions 2 players comming not playing like half a year,2 guard veterans 33 and 34 that will play big roles we will see how they bodies will react to to such tournament marathon.Im not sure this team how its badly balanced its even top 3 in this decade.

    To me 2015EB team is superior to 2013EB. In 2013 Lithuania had Kalnietis as the best player with 12ppg. With all respect to Mantas that's not the best sound to be honest. Kleiza already was washed out and struggled badly in the group stage, yet found his game in the knock out stage, but his 11ppg as second best player is nothing to brag about. Center's position was weak with washed out Javtokas (tiny role) and raw, young and overweight (Raps) JV. Our best big was softy stretch 5 veteran Darjus with 6.8ppg. Seibutis was basically the only solid helper for Kalnietis as Pocius and Delininkaitis both had a bad tournament (both washed out basically). This team badly overachieved as I see now with a nice stretch and fighting spirit in the knock out stage. Yet we had a good match-ups against free style Italy and young Croatia in 4finals and semifinals.

    2015EB is another story. JV stood as a true rock for the very first time with 16ppg, Maciulis had his career season with 14ppg, Kalnietis with 11ppg and lead the tournament with assists I believe, Jankunas was rock solid and Kuzminskas broke out as a good stretch 4. This team manhandled absolute powerhouse Serbia in the semis. 2013 never seen anything even close to 2015EB Serbia. That was a huge upset.

    As for 2019, I believe on the paper this team should be heads and shoulders above any team of 10's, even 2015EB. JV coming to his prime, Kuzminskas in his prime, Sabonis just had the best NBA season of all Lithuanians (and basically only few players in history provided his stats line in all basketball) at the age of 22 (he's way better than any player of 2013EB team for example), Gudaitis has been among best centers of EL this season, Grigonis has a braking out season in EL, we have EL's level back-up PG player for a very first time since 2012 (Jasikevicius, Kalnietis), Ulanovas is a solid EL wing who can be used 2-4 positions and brings flexibility and versatility and our veterans all had decent season which implies their are capable of dealing with their roles (I can't decide what is your strategy, you pathologically don't trust youngsters, but now also questioning veterans? ). Even with Gudaitis and Maciulis not being 100% in shape, this team has transcendent upside compared to other teams in 10's. Whenever all this will click it's another question, but on the paper, IMO, it's best we got since 2008, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    but bravo atleast this time you dont put some shaky leg youngsters in our top 12 roster,but all grown up men
    When the last time I put one? Do you have evidence?
    Last edited by Straight forward; 05-03-2019 at 02:32 PM.
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  19. #719
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    To me 2015EB team is superior to 2013EB. In 2013 Lithuania had Kalnietis as the best player with 12ppg. With all respect to Mantas that's not the best sound to be honest. Kleiza already was washed out and struggled badly in the group stage, yet found his game in the knock out stage, but his 11ppg as second best player is nothing to brag about. Center's position was weak with washed out Javtokas (tiny role) and raw, young and overweight (Raps) JV. Our best big was softy stretch 5 veteran Darjus with 6.8ppg. Seibutis was basically the only solid helper for Kalnietis as Pocius and Delininkaitis both had a bad tournament (both washed out basically). This team badly overachieved as I see now with a nice stretch and fighting spirit in the knock out stage. Yet we had a good match-ups against free style Italy and young Croatia in 4finals and semifinals.

    2015EB is another story. JV stood as a true rock for the very first time with 16ppg, Maciulis had his career season with 14ppg, Kalnietis with 11ppg and lead the tournament with assists I believe, Jankunas was rock solid and Kuzminskas broke out as a good stretch 4. This team manhandled absolute powerhouse Serbia in the semis. 2013 never seen anything even close to 2015EB Serbia. That was a huge upset.

    As for 2019, I believe on the paper this team should be heads and shoulders above any team of 10's, even 2015EB. JV coming to his prime, Kuzminskas in his prime, Sabonis just had the best NBA season of all Lithuanians (and basically only few players in history provided his stats line in all basketball) at the age of 22 (he's way better than any player of 2013EB team for example), Gudaitis has been among best centers of EL this season, Grigonis has a braking out season in EL, we have EL's level back-up PG player for a very first time since 2012 (Jasikevicius, Kalnietis), Ulanovas is a solid EL wing who can be used 2-4 positions and brings flexibility and versatility and our veterans all had decent season which implies their are capable of dealing with their roles (I can't decide what is your strategy, you pathologically don't trust youngsters, but now also questioning veterans? ). Even with Gudaitis and Maciulis not being 100% in shape, this team has transcendent upside compared to other teams in 10's. Whenever all this will click it's another question, but on the paper, IMO, it's best we got since 2008, IMO.



    When the last time I put one? Do you have evidence?
    But you wrote what was happening, what if nowaday's team fails? It would be very easy to do against potentially strong Canadians and Aussies. I don't think we can see strong defensively fighting team like in Kazlauskas era. Anyway, 2013 team was very good on the paper.
    Bigs: Kleiza, JV (not today's though), Motiejunas (who is not available today), Javtokas and Brothers who were veterans, but still playing on a solid level and obviously it was a big help for NT. It was even too much in terms of quantity. Today we have 2 very strong bigs, but with Gudaitis's injury (i don't think he can fully recover and play), we don't have any others. Kavaliauskas being 34 and playing his worst season, Geben - LKL player, Echodas playing like the same LKL player, Birutis injured and probably not ready yet, Jankunas already not available due to age and injuries. We just don't have any solid options on the bench (i don't count sf moving to pf). So 2013 overcrowded frontcourt looks better even if it didn't have the quality of the current JV or Domas.
    Then young Kalnietis, Seibutis, Pocius and Maciulis sounds like a very solid thing as well. Kuzminskas had a break out season in Zalgiris and moved to Spain. By the way, he played in his natural position. It also sounds better than a bad season in Milano. Just some years ago i considered him as one of the best sf's in Europe, but now it's far from that. That team only lacked 2nd high level pg. Nowaday's team with absences has more problems on the paper for sure. It would be another talk if all the best could be gathered together, but...
    2015 team didn't have that issue (2nd pg), so maybe was even more talented, but i'm not sure. It didn't have Kleiza, Motiejunas and Pocius compared to 2013. JV became older, Domantas appeared but he wasn't old enough.
    By the way, 2012 team may be that the most talented since 2008. Kalnietis-Jasikevicius was probably the best pg line (and would be still today) since 1996? Marciulionis and i don't know good were Jasikevicius and Pacesas at that time. Then Kaukenas (the last time he played in NT, but he was good even after that), Pocius, Seibutis, Maciulis, Jasaitis (he always was a good NT player), Kleiza, Jankunas, Songaila, JV, Kavaliauskas. So, my bet would be on 2012 team. Once again, it's about what was on the paper.

  20. #720

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    Dreamcatcher, you mixed everything and got lost constructing your post. You quoted me, but obviously didn't read me. I was talking precisely about the team that I posted (+Gudaitis, Maciulis).

    You made a good point that apriori, before the tournament 2013EB looked stronger and deeper than it actually was, but your display of that is too artificial. Kleiza was bothered by injuries in Toronto and played rather small role in NBA, but fans still expected a lot from him. Brothers Lavrinovic's were treated as "washouts" in 2011, 2012 period at the NT level, Kemzura wasn't even inviting them, people had low expectations on them (eventually Kristof basically didn't play at all, while Darjus provided his 6.8pts from the bench which was pretty nice). Javtokas was in the similar situation as current Kavaliauskas pretty much, no hype what so ever (eventually he barely played in EB). JV came "bulked", slow and playing most primitive basketball in his career, but I agree that fans had high hopes on him (eventually he had below mediocre tournament, scoring only on scrub teams), D-Mo was an enigma at this point, but I also agree that fans had high hopes on him (eventually played little and made little impact). To sum up, the hype was coming from Kleiza (again, he was far from the level of current JV and Sabonis, not even close) JV and Motiejunas, but that's pretty much it. I'm more than convinced that current Valanciunas and Sabonis alone matches and exceeds the hype of all 2013 frontcourt. Back than JV and Motiejunas were prospects who "should play well somewhat in the future". Now we have two NBA studs who actually killing it in the NBA, not mentioning that JV is a long time focal, high scoring player now. Than I believe vigilant fans also have high expectations on Kuzminskas. The assumption that he had a bad season is absolutely wrong. He is delivering under his role pretty well, and knowing the "system" he's playing under, even good. When he was coming to 2013EB, he was a 6pts player for a weaker Malaga than current Armani. How post NBA and post 2017EB Kuzminskas could be hyped less than 2013 Kuz is beyond me (that's the most silly part I found in your post). Gudaitis was beasting in EL and I think had decent chances to go to Cavs if not injury after the season. And there's still Maciulis. To sum up, we have more talent which is absolutely ready to go now. In 2013 we had veterans, crippled Kleiza and too raw JV, D-Mo.

    Your assumption that we shouldn't treat Kuzminskas and Maciulis as bigs is wrong because basketball gone small and Kuz is more of a PF today than SF. Maciulis would also be a tweener all his career now if it would begin now. Importance of ability to guard stretch 4 increasing also. You also contradict yourself because you treat Kleiza as a big (which he was) of 2013, but disagree to treat Kuz and Maciulis as ones.

    Go further position 3 is stronger of 2019. In 2013 there was Maciulis (strong player) and young Kuzminskas (sucked, but some hype nevertheless). Now we having coming into his prime Ulanovas who nearly (just a tiny half of step worse) matches 2013 Maciulis, so there's a hype among serious fans. We still have Maciulis who is half step worse, but still got it and, again, serious fans still want him and hype him as an important one. And we have Giedraitis who surely receives some hype today, not as much as 2013 Kuzminskas, but some hype nevertheless (and I think he is capable of matching 2013 Kuzminskas (3ppg). So I find this position deeper, specially that Kuzminskas can play SF as well today.

    Position 1 and 2 I give a slight advantage to 2013 (remember we still talking on the paper). Delinkaitis was playing in Ukraine, no hype there. I think even current Juskeviciu, Janavicius, not to mention Milaknis easily match that. Kalnietis was in his prime and people surely hyped him. Pocius was riding Real's bench, much like current Lekavičius, so some hype, but not much. Seibutis was in his prime, playing very well for Rytas, crappy, but nevertheless Euroleague's club. So I give a slight edge to 2013 because of the fact Kalnietis and Seibutis were surely hyped and Pocius still was treated as a player by many fans (while actually he was on his falling way already, injuries hit him, athleticism decreasing...). But it's close because now we surely hype Grigonis, we still hype Kalnietis a little bit, we know that Lekavicius would be a solid player in Zalgiris and Seubutis is having a good season in ACB. And we have 5th guard in Milaknis, Juskevicius, Janavicius, no hype, but still improves the depth (2013 had 4 guards).


    To sum up that, on the paper, I would hype 2019 team more and would have more expectations from it.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 05-04-2019 at 11:01 AM.
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