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Thread: 2019 World Cup Qualifying Odyssey!

  1. #1081
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Kuzminskas looked.. distracted?

  2. #1082
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    How good was Sabonis' passing? Among players taller than 200 (I chose 200 because otherwise Sabonis would be embarrassed by Jomantas) who played more than 5% of team's possible minutes Sabonis'19 is first with 6.3 as per 40 minutes
    karnisovas'99 is second with 4.8 and Javtokas'15 third with 4.7. Sabonis'99 is 6th after appearances by Adomaitis'97 and Adomaitis'99

    In simple assist average per game Sabonis is 22nd from (24 x 12 - Praskevicius = ) 287 appearances. Karnisovas'97 is 21st, ahead by 0.03 of assist, everyone else is point guard (Saras 8 times, Kalnietis 7, Marciulionis 3, Maskoliunas and Lukminas 1 each)

    Do we really need real PG when we have Sabonis?

  3. #1083
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Kemzura had long interview this summer and he said: it's time to return to head coach jobs,he gave all indications he need more challenges not just be assistant. I understand it's not club, but still we can see what direction he is looking right now.

    I doubt do Kairys have enough weight to coach our men NT and have players respect.But it would interesting experiment ale Lithuanian Brad Stevens.

    Maskvytis generations coached boys is slowly taking over our NT right now.For me he would be best fit.Almost half players of today's nt grown up coached by him either in junior teams or neptunas.

    For me Maskoliunas makes zero sense, coach that all of his career was basically only assistant, our nt is not place to start your head coaching career especially in Olympic summer.

    Kazlauskas at 65 is too old and Kurtinaitis have no support from players and euroleague job.

  4. #1084
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Kemzura had long interview this summer and he said: it's time to return to head coach jobs,he gave all indications he need more challenges not just be assistant. I understand it's not club, but still we can see what direction he is looking right now.
    I think he precisely talked about club, made hints that Neptunas situation is not exactly what he is looking for, wants stronger club with bigger goals, bigger budget

    As I wrote in previous page - we don't know for how long coach will be signed, cause federation might change after this Olympic cycle ends, so it might be only for one summer. In this case even Kazlauskas in an option, 65? who cares, with his IQ it's not a problem at all, but its close to impossible for that to happen


  5. #1085

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    Emotions aside, here's my word on players individually:

    Kalnietis - exactly what I expected, solid handling of the team, 10pts, 5ass, yet it's more than obvious than after 2016 he is different. In 2017 and 2019 he wasn't able to be that train which leads the team. He didn't want to give an answer for upcoming year, but I think he will still show up
    Lekavicius- exceeded expectations. 13pts in 18 minutes. Some people say he has little to offer facilitating wise and it's true to some extent, but notice how perfectly p'n'p worked with Jankunas. The latter just had to nail open jimmies, but he didn't. I'm OK with how Adomaitis handled this due, even if few more minutes to Lukas was just obviously asking, but in the future I would switch their current roles, would give Lukas 24mintes, more freedom and he would deliver, even assists wise. I bit less of true PG, but he would exceed at slashing, scoring and lock down individual defence (note that no-one really bullied Lekavicius inside, that height problem is a bit overrated even if obviously an issue generally)
    Grigonis - exceeded expectation, brought leadership, not all shots fell in, but he was huge in some games. I think his lost -5kg just before WC also meant we seen 90% ready Grigonis. He's a flat out leader for us in upcoming tournaments.
    Seibutis - just as I expected. Solid D and some cheeky scores in the key games, but his role is getting smaller and smaller.
    Giedraitis - he wasn't used at all, so below expectations. I wanted him to crack rotation though.
    Maciulis - slightly below expectations. He wasn't all that good defensively as used to be, offensively he was bleak. Personally I would say surely we don't need him anymore, specially if we get Brazdeikis, but I kinda still see a spot at 4 if say Masiulis won't be ready and I kinda see Masiulis being finally ready for NT next summer. So I don't know, will depend on situation. Jonas said he will be there and wants to.
    Ulanovas - exceeded expectations. He looked really good. Will be a solid role player for a while.
    Butkevicius- just what I expected. Defence, hustle, energy.
    Kuzminskas - below expectations. His role was unexpressed and he looked lost.
    Sabonis - a bit below expectations. Just it obvious he needs time to put everything together and obviously would love to play at 5.
    Jankunas - way below expectations. Just make an open jimmy. He's done, respect for him for all these years!
    Valanciunas - below expectations. No improvement in double team reading, quick decision making and p'n'r defence. Besides some boost offensively here and there, we are very vulnerable team defensively with JV in the court.

    I can repeat my self I want more expressed face to face offence. We post up too much and some other players just losing the feel of the game, those who loves to play within the flow as Kuzminskas. None of current dominant NTs are playing this way and I don't see winning in the big stage with such basketball. Even Serbia failed at it badly. I don't think we have a future playing JV and Sabonis together, we should use them as 5 mainly, specially later when Masiulis, Kulboka, Sedekerskis will ripe as new PFs. Also we should mind that current basketball moves toward switching everything and rotating bigs. We're not gonna win anything notable overusing JV, IMO. Nurse knew what he's doing when he limited JV's PT to 18 minutes and forced feed him in that stretch, that's the best way to utilize him. So I ask 4 things from new coach - 1. Find proper role for Kuz at PF. 2. Limit JV's minutes to 20 and cover his defensive flaws. 3. Increase Lekavicius role. 4. Push it for integrating scoring and shooting new-comers (Brazdeikis for actual OG, Sirvydis, Kulboka for camps).
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  6. #1086
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    I wasn't really able to watch a single lithuanian game this tournament due to f***ed scheduling and my work, but a few things are truly worth discussing for sure.
    First, the over-reliance on Kalnietis to run the point at this stage of his career was obviously a costly mistake - Lekavicius is already a much more reliable and ready player to take on a main PG duties and do it successfully.
    Sabonis had a very forgettable and even dissapointing tournament, shooting only 48 % from the field and missing some very important bunnies in crucial games. He's yet to have a solid international tournament and his fans' proclamations of him dominating the FIBA events in the future sound a bit silly at the moment.
    JV should have played more, especially in 2 do-or-die games againt aussies and frenchies - I don't care what his detractors say, he's hands down our best player and he needs to be involved in the game more. I mostly blame Adomaitis here for mismanaging his usage and minutes in important games.
    And finally, our dear former coach, who runs and acts on emotions mainly... The less is said about him and his tactics, especially in late game situations, the better. It's only fitting that the guy found enough sense and courage to resign after all of his blunders.

    Let's just hope that the next coach will be better equipped tactically and we will not have washed up scrub Jankunas missing shots in the late important game situations.

  7. #1087
    Senior Member Svajunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    I wasn't really able to watch a single lithuanian game this tournament due to f***ed scheduling and my work, but a few things are truly worth discussing for sure.
    First, the over-reliance on Kalnietis to run the point at this stage of his career was obviously a costly mistake - Lekavicius is already a much more reliable and ready player to take on a main PG duties and do it successfully.
    Sabonis had a very forgettable and even dissapointing tournament, shooting only 48 % from the field and missing some very important bunnies in crucial games. He's yet to have a solid international tournament and his fans' proclamations of him dominating the FIBA events in the future sound a bit silly at the moment.
    JV should have played more, especially in 2 do-or-die games againt aussies and frenchies - I don't care what his detractors say, he's hands down our best player and he needs to be involved in the game more. I mostly blame Adomaitis here for mismanaging his usage and minutes in important games.
    And finally, our dear former coach, who runs and acts on emotions mainly... The less is said about him and his tactics, especially in late game situations, the better. It's only fitting that the guy found enough sense and courage to resign after all of his blunders.

    Let's just hope that the next coach will be better equipped tactically and we will not have washed up scrub Jankunas missing shots in the late important game situations.
    I respect your opinion regarding JV, but its very rare opinion at this point. It's obvious to everyone, that with JV on the floor - we cant defend pnr.
    Unless we find a way to do that, there is no way that more pt for JV would be good.

    At the same time you look at Domas %, but you forget that he can defend pnr and can effectively switch. Thats why he will take over JV's role in years to come.

    Unfortunatly I can't find JV's +- to back my opinion.

  8. #1088
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svajunas View Post
    I respect your opinion regarding JV, but its very rare opinion at this point. It's obvious to everyone, that with JV on the floor - we cant defend pnr.
    Unless we find a way to do that, there is no way that more pt for JV would be good.

    At the same time you look at Domas %, but you forget that he can defend pnr and can effectively switch. Thats why he will take over JV's role in years to come.

    Unfortunatly I can't find JV's +- to back my opinion.
    JV's +/- on the floor against France was +4 (so at the end of the day, we were still winning with him being unable to defend p'n'r apparently)
    Domas' +/- against France was -7...not much to be said here, the boxscore confirmed the eye test that he was struggling tremendously in those games.

    And just to be frank with you, I consider this stat to be a very flawed one and over-reliant on the teammates performances. But this myth that JV is not playable against elite teams needs to stop once and for all

  9. #1089
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Let's see what cold number averages say without like/dislike/emotions:

    Valanciunas 22,6min 14pts+8,8reb 64% Eff. 21,2

    Sabonis. 23,8min 10,5+ 6,3reb 48%. Eff. 15,3

    Kalnietis 23,4min. 10pts+5,4asist. 51%. Eff. 12,4

    Lekavicius. 17,7min. 13pts+1,8asist. 65% Eff. 13,4

    Grigonis. 19,8min. 10,2pts+1,2assist. 45%. Eff. 8,2

    Ulanovas. 22,1min. 7,2pts+2,2reb. 46% Eff.10

    Kuzminskas. 16,5min. 7pts+3reb. 45% Eff.5,2.

    Butkevicius. 10,2min. 2,8pts+2,4reb 75% Eff. 4,6

    Maciulis. 17,8min. 4,8pts.+3,8reb. 32%. Eff. 7,2

    Seibutis. 14min. 2,6pts+0,8 assist. 35% Eff. 2

    Jankunas. 9,1min 4,4pts+1,8reb. 22%. Eff. 3,8

    Giedraitis. Overall 39min 2 pts shooting 0/4

  10. #1090
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Numbers show our 3 veterans :

    Jankunas,Maciulis,Jankunas is close to be simply washed up.They were by far our 3 worst shooters.

    Jankunas is done that's a fact.

    Seibutis minutes I would give to Butkevicius.The men real world class athlete.He convince me he is ready.

    Maciulis I still would still keep him for one more summer as 11-12 player ,but mostly in Pf position ,we don't have mobility and shooting there... all players too big and very bad shooters.

    Kuzminskas should get Maciulis minutes in SF, not playing him all summer in Pf where he gets beat up by stronger men.

    Maciulis can take that beat up,Kuz can't.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 09-12-2019 at 08:05 AM.

  11. #1091
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Kalnietis,Lukas,Grigonis,Ulanovas,Butkevicius,Kuzm inskas,Sabonis, Valanciunas, Gudaitis

    For me 9 men should be locks for our Olympic team 2020

    Maciulis and Giedraitis have seriuos shot making team .Seibutis not so sure anymore.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 09-12-2019 at 08:06 AM.

  12. #1092

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    I expressed my concern with SF position, but I'm more than sure we are filling it with Brazdeikis, Jogela type of SFs, even Sedekerskis and Kuboka will offer their own presence at SF with a face to face offence. The same Sirvydis is SG/SF tweener. But there's other position which will be harder to fill up. It's SG.

    We have one true SG. Here's my description - the one who can not only shoot, but handle the ball, facilitate, play p'n'r, slash, control the tempo a little bit. Only Grigonis can do that now for us. Nor current Seibutis, nor Giedraitis, Butkevicius can do that. You can't build system around them for longer stretches. Basically we have three rotational guards in Lekavicius, Grigonis, Kalnietis and some tiny role players in Seibutis, Giedraitis, Butkevicius.

    We badly need more if we want some real improvement. I see 2 elite prospects who have the skill to step into that position, Sirvydis and Brazdeikis. Brazdeikis is a pretty big 100kg tweener, so I'm not sure, but the skill is there. Now non-elite SG prospects are these - Valinskas, Karolis and Dovydas Giedraitis. I could go deeper and mention Vilys, Sargiunas, maybe even Varnas and I don't mention Uleckas because I don't think he has much of other skills than shooting. I don't interested in spot up shooters unless they have absolutely elite size and shooting mechanics as Kulboka. I'm not sold on Jogela being available at 2, he's still SF to me and I think he will need more time to ripe.

    To some up, aside Grigonis I'm not holding my breath and doubt any of Giedraitis, Seibutis, Butkevicius can make more expressed impact and I'm all for pushing new offensive options even if with a little credit. We are not combatting the world with those kind of options anyway, so I better invest to the nearest future if we have more or less ready studs (like Grigonis was in 2016 or Lekavicius in 2015)

    With that said, I'm highest on Butkevicius from the bunch and would see such picture for 2020 OG at the moment:

    Lekavicius, Kalnietis (Jokubaitis in if Kalnietis out)
    Grigonis, Butkevicius (Sirvydis or other youngster in if he's more or less ready, if not invite Seibutis)
    Ulanovas, Brazdeikis
    Sabonis, Kuzminskas, (Masiulis in if he's pretty much ready and he is, if not, invite Maciulis)
    Valanciunas, Gudaitis

    Jankunas is out of question and new coach should make his own mind on Seibutis and Maciulis apriori. You can't call them out and them to cut. Those shouldn't even be invited if you have doubts. I would be willing to give a chance to youngsters if they will be pretty much ready. I don't see Seibutis and Maciulis making any worth mentioning impact in 2020. If we'll go down, at least lets sow some studs for the future at those 11-12th spots.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 09-12-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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  13. #1093
    Senior Member Svajunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    JV's +/- on the floor against France was +4 (so at the end of the day, we were still winning with him being unable to defend p'n'r apparently)
    Domas' +/- against France was -7...not much to be said here, the boxscore confirmed the eye test that he was struggling tremendously in those games.

    And just to be frank with you, I consider this stat to be a very flawed one and over-reliant on the teammates performances. But this myth that JV is not playable against elite teams needs to stop once and for all
    Never said he was unplayable. He was struggling heavily to defend, as he is always.
    And the eye test confirms it. You're eye test however is a bit biased. The fact that you try to show how "bad" sabonis was, just shows that you are gasping for straws just to prove that JV is better then him.

    You know well that Im one the bigger JV fans here, but basketball is changing every year to the point where JV is hurting more then helping, especialy this year where he came to the camp after fat check and he was struggling to dominate even against Canada of all.... Dissappointment.

  14. #1094
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svajunas View Post
    Never said he was unplayable. He was struggling heavily to defend, as he is always.
    And the eye test confirms it. You're eye test however is a bit biased. The fact that you try to show how "bad" sabonis was, just shows that you are gasping for straws just to prove that JV is better then him.

    You know well that Im one the bigger JV fans here, but basketball is changing every year to the point where JV is hurting more then helping, especialy this year where he came to the camp after fat check and he was struggling to dominate even against Canada of all.... Dissappointment.
    Once again, it's a matter of perception like always with an ultra efficient offensive player like JV.
    I personally don't know a single big man in the world, with the exception of Anthony Davis maybe, who can successfully defend those super quick and extremely skilled NBA guards on the perimeter. And please don't bring up Gobert here, because he's camped in the paint all the time and does all the work there. So I guess the question then is - do you expect JV to play like Anthony Davis, or, in other words, on a superstar level? If so, you will always be disappointed by him. And as for Sabonis and his army of fans here, he was indeed a dissapointment in this tournament - both offensively and defensively. I don't really know how stating that is "hating" on a poor guy.

  15. #1095
    Senior Member Svajunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    Once again, it's a matter of perception like always with an ultra efficient offensive player like JV.
    I personally don't know a single big man in the world, with the exception of Anthony Davis maybe, who can successfully defend those super quick and extremely skilled NBA guards on the perimeter. And please don't bring up Gobert here, because he's camped in the paint all the time and does all the work there. So I guess the question then is - do you expect JV to play like Anthony Davis, or, in other words, on a superstar level? If so, you will always be disappointed by him. And as for Sabonis and his army of fans here, he was indeed a dissapointment in this tournament - both offensively and defensively. I don't really know how stating that is "hating" on a poor guy.
    Forget super quick nba guards. JV back's so much in the paint that any 5 can get a shot off in pick and pop situations, he doesn't play smart like lets say for example the same slow M. Gasol does.

    Hes very efficient on offense and very bad on defense. However everyone knows that 2 pts is less than 3 pts, therefore you have to focus on defending the 3 pt line, then scoring under the basket.

  16. #1096
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Jonas is really bad in pikenroll defence even compared to other centers thats clear to most teams how they are attacking him.

    But saying that Jonas is huge force offensively way bigger than Domantas is.But with Domas as center and 4 mobile players defence becomes really tough to beat.



    Number says that playing them together was minus for entire our team againts both elite teams we played,we simply were too slow .

    Our coaches must find right formula for Jonas offence and Domas all around game+defence.This tournament shown playing two bigs that cant shoot is bad idea,elite teams gonna take advantage of that.

  17. #1097
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Mačiulis got healthy just before camp, he may be better after healthy season. Or more tired

  18. #1098
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    You can find minutes and +/- of V+S playing together here:
    https://www.basketnews.lt/news-13274...-jos-ribu.html
    11 minutes on average is pretty much what we were predicting.

    Them not playing well together is worse news for 3rd center than for team, I think

  19. #1099

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    But saying that Jonas is huge force offensively way bigger than Domantas is.But with Domas as center and 4 mobile players defence becomes really tough to beat.
    What comes to pure scoring, JV is more reliable, consistent and predictable option than Sabonis. JV is elite low post scorer and has great hands, always had, one of the best at it in the world. He also is very efficient scorer. But mind that it was pretty much first Sabonis season in the NT with a big role. He also was forced to get out of his comfort zone often. With time he will polish his game better and will adjust to system better, likely playing more on more center in the future.

    As of now Jonas is more reliable scorer, but he's impact offensively will always also be limited because he doesn't play within the flow. That means we should stop the vital and natural basketball and set the offence entirely for JV. He won't generate a lot of assists, never happened. I think Nurse, the guy who had JV for all these years, nailed it and polished JV's usage last season. He played him for active 18minutes and really tried to feed him. As LuDux correctly found, he was the most utilized player per minute in the Raptors offensively. So that's JV's usage for any winning elite team, be it NBA or FIBA. You can play him more of that's Grizzlies or Lithuania, but it's not winning basketball these days.

    Look at the numbers, JV scores 14 and 1 assist in WC. Sabonis cores 10,5 and 4 assists. It means JV generated 16-17ppg, Sabonis 18,5- 22,5ppg. Plus, Sabonis does playing within the flow much more, you don't need to simply post him up, he gets some of his points with the drives from the perimeter, quick p'n'r, hustle and so on. That means others feel more comfortable playing with Sabonis, even if he doesn't score or assist, we don't need to make mechanic, slow, post up sets every time, and with current JV it's basically the only way.

    Force feed JV for 18-20minutes and expect that he will have a monster game offensively, shooting 60-65%. That's the best and all you can get from JV. And we should do that, but I'm not holding the breath. Aside the miracle of 2015, other tournaments in 2016, 2017 and 2019 where we emphasized the game through JV were bad for us and it's probably the worse or second worst stretch in Lithuanian basketball history. Actually it's the worst.

    Love our JV boy, I created the thread when he was 17yo and was very high on him many years, but basketball went to different direction. 90s was JV's type of centers era.
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  20. #1100
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Valanciunas is basically unguardable 1 vs 1 you must double team him no other way...If Gobert had seriuos problems defending him when it was crunch time that says alot.

    Valanciunas played less time than Domantas and both got similiar touches ,Jonas just shooted way better and scored more and looked bigger force inside.

    Domantas looked way better in defence.

    When we dont have world class guards that can take over in last 5 minutes,Jonas is still our main option to score when defences toughen up.That this is not winning basketball in modern basketball I will not argue.

    Sabonis already was in team since 2015 he is no rookie by no means...it was his 3rd tournament.He was loosing his temper to often to my taste and was looking very shaky in 4 querters.Jonas played his best basketball in both 4 querters againts Aus and Fra.

    Jonas is coming to his peak years and I loved his emotions and fighters character he shown in 4 querters, he begin to feel moments when it really matters ( he was very close to will our team to win both times).Not in every tournament Mills and Fournier gonna make those really tough shots and close games.

    How it looks now our NT result wise had bad tournament,but if both Fra and Aus reach finals in such case we were very unlucky with draw and still had our chances even againts best teams of entire tournament.

    We played through guy who is our best player I don't believe that's a mistake.Btw I liked how Adomaitis used Jonas 22min it sounds right.

    I just couldn't stand seeing them both in 4 querter together.This is dead sentence againts teams with world class guards .

    NT with just Jonas C were +.With just Domantas C it was +.
    But with both of them NT were minus againts both Aus and Fra.

    After things calm down I don't thing our team played badly in 2019, it looks that we got f**ked up by a Chinese draw and lost 2 heartbreaks in last minute againts medalist teams.


    Valanciunas,Sabonis, Grigonis will be our big 3 till 2024 + 5-6 hard nose workers this team can win medal I'm confident in that.We won't get such draw every year.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 09-12-2019 at 04:33 PM.

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