Who is the greatest European player ever?

[CoachZ]

Antetokounmpo has a great potential, but I don't think he can surpass Parker or Nowitzki.

I think you're seeing only what you want to see, both Hedo and Okur was the leading members of their teams like being one of the best out of 2 or 3, which is more than enough. As I said before, even Jordan had Pippen, Lebron had Wade+Bosh and then Kyrie Irving. I never said they did alone, I said they carried their team that doesn't mean doing it all alone.

You need to stop inhaling glue my friend. In what fairy tale were Okur and Hedo anything more than role players...

[Tevfik1907]

You need to stop inhaling glue my friend.

I am not your friend, and you really need to stop baiting other users.

In what fairy tale were Okur and Hedo anything more than role players...

You've a really weird ''role player'' view, since you actually believe that an NBA All-star player is a role player.



A small part of Okur's clutch shots ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rip6U19684Q

In what fairy tale ''role players'' are getting a seat at NBA ALL-star ?


And Hedo was a role player in Orlando ? , you really need to educate yourself before talking about NBA.

This is your role-player is using the buzzer beater shot over Paul Pierce and Dwight is doing nothing.

Turkoglu vs. Celtics - Game 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID2Mr-_yty8

[CoachZ]

Dude you know jack shit about basketball. You mix up players positions all the time as demonstrated by your "lists", don't understand how the game is played or understand a concept of a role player.

Neither of those players was a No. 1 or No. 2 option on those teams. They were role players, they did it really well NOBODY denies that. In their prime they were great role players. Calling Okur a leader in a team of Deron Williams, Boozer and Kirilienko and Hedo with Dwight and Lewis is just poor and misguided.

Also beside looking at pure points, you have to look what certain players were asked to do on the floor. Hedo was a 3 & D guy that was supposed to keep teams honest vs Dwight when they stretch with Lewis and him. He did that very well, but he was nowhere near a franchise player.

Okur was a tweener that could stretch in a time when bigs didn't shoot outside of Nowitzki. He was very effective in that role but he couldn't really defend and he averaged 7rpg in almost 40 minutes on the floor. He was a tweener role guy that had some very good years. I would say he was even closer to star than Hedo due to his shotmaking ability in the tough spots and games.

Still neither of them was nothing more than a role player...

Regarding the All Stars

You do know that he was a injury replacement??? Do you also know that he is often on the lists of the worst All Stars EVER!!! Guys like Wally Szerbiak, Tyrone Hill, FUCKING DALE DAVIS, Jamal Magloire!!! BJ Armstrong made it one year LOL! Or half Dead Yao Ming in 2011!!!

Get a grip!

[Tevfik1907]

@CoacZ you really need to stop answering me, because we both know that how bias you really are against the Turks, half of your posts is about bullshitting on Turk clubs and Turkish players, even your avatar is a joke to some Turkish player...

Anyways, this is your ''role player'' Hedo is using the most important shots in the 2009 playoffs

[mojo13]

I'd agree that Okur and Turkoglu were not much more than good role players. If they were it was for very short windows when at the top of their game.


I am always amazed how people on this board underestimate Marc Gasol and his impact in the NBA. Is it because he played his entire career on the small market Grizzlies? Or overshadowed by Pau? Or maybe hasn't really starred for Spain?

I mean, he is a perennial all-star caliber player. The best player on a perennial playoff team and has been a MVP candidate as well. He has been a top 3-5 center in the NBA for years.

Okur couldn't sniff his jock and in my opinion Marc Gasol is better than Divac both in their respective primes and over their careers . Vlade was pretty darn good, but Marc Gasol has put up better statistical seasons while on a defensive oriented, grind-it-out-team where Vlade played on the fast paced Lakers/Kings. Vlade made one Allstar team (2001).

Marc Gasol:
3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award (2013)
All-NBA Second Team (2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)
All-NBA First Team (2015) He was in the MVP running this year.


He is in my top 5 modern Euro's of all time - with an NBA slant. (P. Gasol, Parker, Nowitzski, Stojakovic., M. Gasol). Are there other multiple allstar, all NBA team players to consider?


Here is your list of guys to EVER make an All NBA 1st or 2nd Team (a standard much higher than an all-star selection):
Rudy Gobert
Dirk
Parker
Marc Gasol
Pau Gasol
Stojaković
Noah (does he count?)

Only Marc and Dirk have made the 1st team (and Noah if he counts).


And Dirk is the best European player ever - I don't how that could even be questioned. Maybe you could argue for Sabonis, but he was never really properly tested in the NBA.

[Tevfik1907]

I'd agree that Okur and Turkoglu were not much more than good role players. If they were it was for very short windows when at the top of their game.

You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game. Hedo was no where near a role player in Orlando when they get to the Finals. This is not a off-screen shot, this is a one-on-one play at the end of the game and they are letting him to use it, when I said he carried his team to the Finals, I meant this. He was using the most important shots during the playoffs. Not Lewis not Dwight, Hedo.

And you're calling them ''role players'' and somehow you're choosing players like M.Gasol, Stojakovic, Gobert, Kukoc as if they are less ''role players'' than Hedo and Okur. This is the bias and double-standard that I am against for.

[mojo13]

You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game.

Derrick Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr etc. may disagree with you....

Anyways, don't get me wrong Turkoglu was a decent player, but he was very inconstant on his career. He had a couple very good seasons in Orlando and may even have been near all-star level in his 07/08 Orlando season. He was an inefficient shooter (career .426) and a very poor defender. Turk was a role player for the bulk of his career with maybe 2-3 seasons where he was a top three player on his team. He was no where near in the same realm as the players I mentioned above as a Top 5 (M&P Gasol, Dirk, Parker, Peja) who were all among the top players on their team for much of their careers.

I can only assume there is some heavy bias from you toward your countryman which is understandable - I think my Canadian boys are way better than they actually are. But keep in mind there is no one here agreeing with you and I don't see why everyone disagreeing with you would have something bias against Turkoglu.

And you're calling them ''role players'' and somehow you're choosing players like M.Gasol, Stojakovic, Gobert, Kukoc as if they are less ''role players'' than Hedo and Okur. This is the bias and double-standard that I am against for.

I said nothing about Kukoc and only pointed out Gobert was a 2nd team All-NBA selection. His career is to young to opine on right now - but he looks like he will be a annual Defensive Player of the Year candidate.

Peja (NBA Champion, All-NBA 2nd Team, 3× NBA All-Star) and Marc (3× NBA All-Star
NBA Defensive Player of the Year, All-NBA Second Team, NBA All-Defensive Second Team, All-NBA First Team ) are clearly better than Turk - I welcome others to dispute this.

[Tevfik1907]

Derrick Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr etc. may disagree with you....

Are you kidding me right ? When did Fisher, Horry and Kerr play one-on-one at the end of the game like Hedo did ?

I said ;

You don't let ''role players'' use the most important shot at the end of the game. Hedo was no where near a role player in Orlando when they get to the Finals. This is not a off-screen shot, this is a one-on-one play at the end of the game and they are letting him to use it, when I said he carried his team to the Finals, I meant this. He was using the most important shots during the playoffs. Not Lewis not Dwight, Hedo.
.

Fisher's shot, Horry's shots, Kerr's shot, all of them happened over an quick assist or with an off-screen shot... These are not the same at all. Even then, these players are not just random role players, they are winner players that everyone knows and Hedo's one-on-one plays were completely different than some lucky buzzer beater or a point with quick assist.

[Mindozas]

OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
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[R1ou]

OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
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I'm guessing the show is not over yet

[Tevfik1907]

And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic

That has nothing to do with this discussion and there isn't any wrong about measuring positions by height ... You can't play PF and C if you are just 1.90 you know

It's best to stay on topic.

I'm guessing the show is not over yet

Do you have any suggestion for the best European player ? A Greek player perhaps if you have any ?

[usagre]

OMFG what's happening here... And I thought that thread about PG and measuring positions by height was already epic
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Why didn't you tell me this is the guy I am wasting my time with ? I feel like an idiot.

[usagre]

I'm guessing the show is not over yet

An argument can be made that if Giannis retires tomorrow he has already accomplished as much as Turkoglu did. At least in his Nba career for sure.

[okanial]

Hedo was a good player I'd say he was better than Lewis in the season they made the finals but still he wouldn't be a star player.

Okur on the other hand was another story. I'd say he is almost at the same level with Williams for Utah. His main problem was him not staying healthy. He was one of the greatest shooting bigs. Desptie retiring at 32 he is still remebered with his work and one of the guys centers always compared to. If he could stay healthy he would be one of the greatest

[Tevfik1907]

Why didn't you tell me this is the guy I am wasting my time with ? I feel like an idiot.

Actually I wasted my time with you but never mind, sometimes it's good to educate bias people like you.

An argument can be made that if Giannis retires tomorrow he has already accomplished as much as Turkoglu did. At least in his Nba career for sure.

Who the hell ''Giannis'' You mean that Nigerian guy ? Since when we can count these players as European ? Bobby Dixon is also a Turk then

Hedo was a good player I'd say he was better than Lewis in the season they made the finals but still he wouldn't be a star player.

Okur on the other hand was another story. I'd say he is almost at the same level with Williams for Utah. His main problem was him not staying healthy. He was one of the greatest shooting bigs. Desptie retiring at 32 he is still remebered with his work and one of the guys centers always compared to. If he could stay healthy he would be one of the greatest

The problem is that they believe that he was a ''role player'' in Orlando It's obvious that the people who say this didn't watch the NBA games or they are extremely biased.

As you say Hedo was even better than Lewis there, and only second to Dwight, and he was using the most difficulty shots (and no, not like Fisher, Horry and Kerr, he was using it by playing one-on-one) during the play-offs. He basically carried his team to the finals with Dwight. And it's nothing wrong to say this. He is not a star in the NBA, but he is good enough to be on the greatest of European players in here, especially when you see which players other people are choosing against Hedo and Okur.