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Thread: These Fiba Asian Championships Are Junk...

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    Thumbs down These Fiba Asian Championships Are Junk...

    Now here is why...

    There should be NO naturalized players allowed under FIBA rules. NONE. NOT ONE. Players like Rahiem Wright of Jordan, Joe Vogel of Lebanon, and Daniel Sandrin of South Korea, weigh things too heavily for their team during competition and help their team win too much. Naturalized players mess up the competition and make the FIBA rankings junk, and worth very little in the end. ALL of the players in the ASIAN CHAMPIONSHIPS should be native-born and bred. If you have naturalized players on your team, it does not show what YOUR COUNTRY'S PLAYERS can do, it just shows what OTHER COUNTRIES' PLAYERS can do when put on your team, especially when that player is the 1st or 2nd best player on your team. No offense to these great players that I mentioned above on these teams, they are all great players, BUT they should not even BE here in the FIBA Asian Basketball Championships. To those respective countries that use naturalized players, I am sorry, I know that you want to win badly at all costs, and so you are willing to use naturalized players on your team, but they do not belong here, they should be disbarred from competition from now on, and should not be allowed. Sometimes it takes more courage, bravery, and strength, to lose like a man than to resort to cheating, dirty, underhanded, lowdown, and unethical tactics to win, like a coward or a wimp. Its a good thing FIBA only allows 1 naturalized player per team, or otherwise eventually after a couple of decades every Asian country's National Team would be full of foreign-born naturalized players, and there would be very few native-born sons from their own country on their own NATIONAL BASKETBALL TEAMS! Since naturalized players help their team to win so much, naturalized players make the FIBA rankings JUNK. Yes, I know that that is a strong word, but that is truth, they make the results of who wins games in these FIBA Asian Basketball Championships messed-up, and the FIBA rankings JUNK.

    Imagine if China naturalized and put on their team retired NBA point guard Gary Payton--that would solve their point guard problems really quick and balance things out even more in their favor. Perhaps they should do that in the future. After all, more and more countries are doing it.

    Seems like more amoral Asian cheating to me, whether its West Asian, South Asian, East Asian countries, etc., that does this. How come European and Latin American basketball powerhouses never use "naturalized players?" Are you lower than them?

    In my opinion, half-blood players also should not be allowed on countries' national teams if the ancestor of the player whose country that the players want to play for is older than their grandparents. So then, there would be no more of this "one-drop" rule. For example: anotherwards "my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother or grandfather was _______________ <----(insert nationality here), and I have the papers to prove it, but now I look like an African-American guy", completely unlike any Asian nationality currently playing in the FIBA Asian Basketball Championships, "and I now want to play for this country's National Team and compete in the FIBA Asian Championships." That is wrong, and this rule would solve that problem.

    Also in my opinion, players who DID NOT GROW UP IN THAT COUNTRY, should not be allowed to play on a DIFFERENT COUNTRY'S National Team. They are not a native bred son, even if they were born in that country, and they should not be allowed to play for that country's National Team. For example: If they are 25 years old now, and they were only born in that Asian country, but did not grow up there, and only for example lived there for 1 year and then moved away to another country when they were only a little baby, and then lived for the rest of their life in the United States, and even grew up there, and now they want to play for the country in which they were originally born in, but only lived there for about a year as an infant before they move away, and now they want to play for that country's National Team for a chance at some minor fame, honor, power, and glory, and perhaps for the experience of winning a regional international basketball championships. That is just ridiculous and wrong, and some kind of rule needs to be created in order to stop this, that guarantees that half-bloods who play on an Asian country's national team have at least spent their childhood there in the country on whose national basketball team they are trying to play for would help solve this problem. Though I am NOT, mind you, in favor of eliminating half-blood players from FIBA Basketball competitions altogether--that would be racist, I am only in favor of limiting the dirty and underhanded tricks that Asian countries use to win in FIBA-ASIA competitions.


    And it does not matter if the naturalized player on your team "has lived and played in your country for a long time and intends to stay there for the rest of his life". Using naturalized players is cheating, dirty, lowdown, and unethical. And in the end, it messes up who wins the games in the FIBA-ASIA Basketball Championships, and messes up the countries true positions in the rankings all together, and makes the rankings all junk.

    Therefore, I say these FIBA Asian Basketball Championships are all just junk, if FIBA continues to allow countries to use naturalized players on their countries' National Basketball Teams, and does not institute the rules that i suggested, or at least try to institute some rules to limit the abuses that I have pointed out. Some people will do anything to win and whenever you are designing a system, the leaders of that system must invent rules that do not allow people to cheat, and use underhanded dirty tactics and tricks to win, and allow others to win fairly and squarely as much as possible.

    People need to lobby FIBA and FIBA-ASIA to get them to change this rule to make the current rules more righteous and fair.

  2. #2
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    if all the contendors have 1 naturalized player(leb,jordan,japan and korea)....than its equal...no1 is gaining an advantage on the other...the only cheaters are qatar who have 12 africans...the other 4 countries are just putting a good player in a place where they badly need him nthng illegal.....maybe ur just pissed cuz ur country doesnt want to naturalize a player and i dont blame u for getting mad....china is really weak on the world stage they barely get to the 2nd round every time and if u remove YAO MING they are even beatable by asian teams......1 of the largest populations in the world highly depending on 1 player now this is sad........

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    Senior Member Dinamita's Avatar
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    whew... that was a long essay...

    hey man, why dont you say this to TEAM USA! we all know none of them are 100% percent americans.... but they were using players like this for more than a century now...

    And please dont say they are cheating (asians) I personally dont like naturalized players but it is in the RULES... so, basically we cant do anything about it....

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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    if all the contendors have 1 naturalized player(leb,jordan,japan and korea)....than its equal...no1 is gaining an advantage on the other...the only cheaters are qatar who have 12 africans...the other 4 countries are just putting a good player in a place where they badly need him nthng illegal.....maybe ur just pissed cuz ur country doesnt want to naturalize a player and i dont blame u for getting mad....china is really weak on the world stage they barely get to the 2nd round every time and if u remove YAO MING they are even beatable by asian teams......1 of the largest populations in the world highly depending on 1 player now this is sad........
    I think deep down inside in your heart of hearts and sould of souls you know that it IS cheating, Karim, even though you seem to be willing to do anything to win, all for the glory of Lebanon. I mean Joe Vogel 15 rebounds? 6 Offensive? I mean he helped Lebanon to win the game over Korea. In fact, he was instrumental in helping Lebanon win. Daniel Sandrin also should not be there on the South Korean side, he helped them also. Those 2 players should be taken out, and they should do a rematch over again. All I know is that VERY FEW European or Latin American powerhouse basketball Nation Teams do this and use this tactic. It is dirty and underhanded, and that is part of the reason why. And I think that honestly that if China should do such a thing, especially at the guard spots, that they would do better against international competition, even outside Asia. I mean, imagine if they naturalized a Jason Kidd, or even a retired Gary Payton, then I think that China would do better even against the great European and Latin American powerhouse basketball teams, and then I think that they would win even more. They might just do that in the future, as more and more countries are doing it around the world, not just in Asia. But then it wouldn't truly be them that won, would it? And then their victory would truly be hollow, and not their own victory of their ownb people.

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    Senior Member saints13's Avatar
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    good essay LeroyC33...we may have different views on this one..but your essay was very idealistic and very utopian..very much of a Chinese with conviction..anyway, given the chance you'll run for FIBA Presidency, I'll vote for you if my vote will be counted in!

    guilty RP haha, wala nga naturalized, dami naman mga porenjer.hehe

    translation:
    your essay favors the Chinese NT, and very well said
    It's ironic to see limited efforts from players with maximum salary.
    I wish they would apply "sabermetrics" in those financially challenged PBA teams to acquire players who are value for their money.

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    Senior Member karim's Avatar
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    no man leb is a great team they just have a weakness under the basket vogel covers that...i expect they will naturalize another tall center once he is retired in a couple of years...even though he has some huge shoes to fill....anyway leb has alot of height now...the U19 team has players in the 208 and 205 so in the future after vogel,s retirement and aging of the tall U19 players(they will be 21-22)they might not even naturalize a center even though i think we should.....theres nthing wrong with it....jordan filled their scoring gap with rasheem , japan also needed height like leb they got henderson and korea,s daniel well i think they got him for height also but i think they could,ve gotten a better player(hes only 2 meters and not that good).....in the next asian champ.......after i watched RP i expect them to naturalize a center also cuz they have talented guards but a big weakness under the basket(too many offensive rebounds against them way too many) and iran will probably naturalize a scorer.......they have good players but no stars like fadi,vogel and ali mahmoud which i hope he plays 2morrow we badly need him.......in the end LEROY the teams who are naturalizing 1 player are all against each other so no1,s cheating cuz all the teams are gaining the same and they are choosing the player they are naturalizing....its funny how u mentioned the teams who have naturalized 1 player but not qatar i hope u dont really think they are qatari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinamita
    whew... that was a long essay...

    hey man, why dont you say this to TEAM USA! we all know none of them are 100% percent americans.... but they were using players like this for more than a century now...

    And please dont say they are cheating (asians) I personally dont like naturalized players but it is in the RULES... so, basically we cant do anything about it....
    I can't say this to team USA, because nobody on Team USA now would not believe that they are not Americans. I live in America, and if I said this to any basketball fan here on the streets of America, they would not believe me and they would laugh at me. I understand what you mean, but obviously most Americans do not now believe that they are using naturalized players. The American players who are on their USA Senior National Team obviously of course do not even think that they are naturalized players either by now, and that they are not 100% American. So, it wouldn't work, even if you said this to Americans, because they do not believe that they are naturalizing anyone anymore, even if they wrongly forced certain minorities into their country to use as slaves before.

    And I am very sorry, but I have to say that I believe that this is cheating, it is legal under FIBA rules--even though I think it shouldn't be, but none of the stronger European and Latin American countries do it, because it is so amoral and underhanded and feels like cheating. A thing can be wrong, even though it is legal, but still be unethical and immoral, and even though naturalizing players is legal, it still feels wrong in the spirit of ethical competition and fair play.

    I am sorry, but I think that people should really lobby FIBA to cut this rule out. Lebanon, South Korea, Jordan, even the upstart young Philippines, I believe that even if you could not naturalize players, (yes, I know that the Philippines does not have any naturalized players currently on their National Team), would be be good teams, and I believe all of them would still be one of the upper echelon teams in Asia. But I believe that your victories would be more substantial, and less hollow, and less suspicious, if they did not naturalize players. And I would believe that you would take more satisfaction in your victories if you won naturally, more fairly and squarely as well.

    As it is now, I believe that the rankings cannot be taken seriously, because some of the victories in the FIBA-ASIA championships are suspicious because of the presence of naturalized players on some of the teams.

  8. #8

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    If You Have 2 Billion Chinese People, No Need To Naturalize Bacause You Have More Than Enough Resources Of Tall Basketball Players. Did You Know That China Is Actually Lacks In Basketball Development? How Can China's Team B Be Beaten By Rp Nt? China Should Have Enough Bball Players To Dominate Asia With Two Teams Because Of 2 Million People.:d

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    To the Half-Blood players thingy that you are talking, altough you did not mention the country, it is obviously you are pointing directly to RP.
    first, some fil-ams in the team are 50% or 25% to the least. and they do have a Philippine Passport. they may look not exactly South East Asian but they are a true half-breed. and they did not choose to become half breed, they are even lucky grew in a fat soiled country. RP is very strict regarding the true nationality and not only basketball RP have an half breed players, other sports like boxing, swimming, baseball, Football ( heard of Younghusband ) teammate of Beckham in Chelsea?.
    China is good team, i mean number in Asia without a shot of a doubt, you should be happy then because almost everybody wants to be where china is right now.
    Practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, so why practice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zupermann
    If You Have 2 Billion Chinese People, No Need To Naturalize Bacause You Have More Than Enough Resources Of Tall Basketball Players. Did You Know That China Is Actually Lacks In Basketball Development? How Can China's Team B Be Beaten By Rp Nt? China Should Have Enough Bball Players To Dominate Asia With Two Teams Because Of 2 Million People.:d
    wait wait wait..that was uncalled for

    pardon his post, that was more of an assault rather than being objective..
    a guy's post is not a nation's sentiment..

    anyway, let's respect each other's view and let's express ourselves objectively..
    It's ironic to see limited efforts from players with maximum salary.
    I wish they would apply "sabermetrics" in those financially challenged PBA teams to acquire players who are value for their money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by karim
    no man leb is a great team they just have a weakness under the basket vogel covers that...i expect they will naturalize another tall center once he is retired in a couple of years...even though he has some huge shoes to fill....anyway leb has alot of height now...the U19 team has players in the 208 and 205 so in the future after vogel,s retirement and aging of the tall U19 players(they will be 21-22)they might not even naturalize a center even though i think we should.....theres nthing wrong with it....jordan filled their scoring gap with rasheem , japan also needed height like leb they got henderson and korea,s daniel well i think they got him for height also but i think they could,ve gotten a better player(hes only 2 meters and not that good).....in the next asian champ.......after i watched RP i expect them to naturalize a center also cuz they have talented guards but a big weakness under the basket(too many offensive rebounds against them way too many) and iran will probably naturalize a scorer.......they have good players but no stars like fadi,vogel and ali mahmoud which i hope he plays 2morrow we badly need him.......in the end LEROY the teams who are naturalizing 1 player are all against each other so no1,s cheating cuz all the teams are gaining the same and they are choosing the player they are naturalizing....its funny how u mentioned the teams who have naturalized 1 player but not qatar i hope u dont really think they are qatari
    Well...I don't want to argue with you, I guess we all can have our different opinions and still get along. I know that if other teams are naturalizing players in the next Asian Championships that eventually China will do the same. I just hope that if any of us makes it to the next level of international play, (I mean the World Championships), that the other countries don't lose respect for us that we do such a thing. I mean, I am an American, and if I thought of such a thing watching the FIBA-ASIA Championships, then I know that some people of other countries might think the same thing.

    I mean, I hate to tell you this, since I know that you are all here on this message board for a different reason, but rankings are junk. It doesn't matter if you are 1st--which Lebanon might be at the end of this Asian Championships or 16th, like the United Arab Emirates, we are all equal. When judging someone, things all depend upon the person as an individual anyway.

    And I would like to apologize for the behavior of some of my fellow Chinese posters here, I think that some of their responses were too much. I mean, when I read some of their responses to what some of the supporters of the RP National Team said, I was cringing that they actually said some of the stuff that they actually said to you guys. I think somne of them care about this stuff too much.

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    Senior Member Dinamita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC33
    I can't say this to team USA, because nobody on Team USA now would not believe that they are not Americans. I live in America, and if I said this to any basketball fan here on the streets of America, they would not believe me and they would laugh at me. I understand what you mean, but obviously most Americans do not now believe that they are using naturalized players. The American players who are on their USA Senior National Team obviously of course do not even think that they are naturalized players either by now, and that they are not 100% American. So, it wouldn't work, even if you said this to Americans, because they do not believe that they are naturalizing anyone anymore, even if they wrongly forced certain minorities into their country to use as slaves before.

    And I am very sorry, but I have to say that I believe that this is cheating, it is legal under FIBA rules--even though I think it shouldn't be, but none of the stronger European and Latin American countries do it, because it is so amoral and underhanded and feels like cheating. A thing can be wrong, even though it is legal, but still be unethical and immoral, and even though naturalizing players is legal, it still feels wrong in the spirit of ethical competition and fair play.

    I am sorry, but I think that people should really lobby FIBA to cut this rule out. Lebanon, South Korea, Jordan, even the upstart young Philippines, I believe that even if you could not naturalize players, (yes, I know that the Philippines does not have any naturalized players currently on their National Team), would be be good teams, and I believe all of them would still be one of the upper echelon teams in Asia. But I believe that your victories would be more substantial, and less hollow, and less suspicious, if they did not naturalize players. And I would believe that you would take more satisfaction in your victories if you won naturally, more fairly and squarely as well.

    As it is now, I believe that the rankings cannot be taken seriously, because some of the victories in the FIBA-ASIA championships are suspicious because of the presence of naturalized players on some of the teams.
    I feel you.... A black guy or white guy bringing an ASIAN TEAM to the olympics is just odd looking....Id say go gather some people and have a protest in FIBA's main office ...

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    ah you mean taipan guy saying FUCK YOU FILIPINOS..lolz

    that's ok, it was so childish and uncalled for
    It's ironic to see limited efforts from players with maximum salary.
    I wish they would apply "sabermetrics" in those financially challenged PBA teams to acquire players who are value for their money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thugpinoy
    To the Half-Blood players thingy that you are talking, altough you did not mention the country, it is obviously you are pointing directly to RP.
    first, some fil-ams in the team are 50% or 25% to the least. and they do have a Philippine Passport. they may look not exactly South East Asian but they are a true half-breed. and they did not choose to become half breed, they are even lucky grew in a fat soiled country. RP is very strict regarding the true nationality and not only basketball RP have an half breed players, other sports like boxing, swimming, baseball, Football ( heard of Younghusband ) teammate of Beckham in Chelsea?.
    China is good team, i mean number in Asia without a shot of a doubt, you should be happy then because almost everybody wants to be where china is right now.
    Fine, fine, fine...I don't mean to argue with you. I guess if everything were perfectly righteous, at least some of the rules that I suggested would be followed and implemented, but since nothing is ideal on this Earth but individuals, I will just leave it at that.

    Plus, on that note, I believe that if all things were perfect, I think that there is one other great wrong in terms of the rules of FIBA for Asia, as another poster previously mentioned, and that is that Asia has only 1 slot to the World Championships. I think that that is just junk and unfair. I mean, if you look at FIBA-Oceana, they also have 1 slot. And, if you followed the results of the Stankovic Cup in China, then you know that the 2nd best team in Oceana, New Zealand, was beaten by China by 30 points, so the talent level difference between New Zealand and Australia, which wins that region's FIBA-Oceana slot to the World Championships year after year is great. And yet, they only give FIBA-ASIA, a land of billions and billions of people, only 1 slot to the World Championships. They justify it by saying that they give only 1 slot to Asia because of the talent level, but I think that that is ridiculous, and is full of racism, prejudice, and racist contempt, and lack of belief of the equality of Asians by FIBA for Asians, which I think is wrong. I believe that FIBA should be multinationally run, not just run by mostly Europeans at trhe very top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saints13
    ah you mean taipan guy saying FUCK YOU FILIPINOS..lolz

    that's ok, it was so childish and uncalled for

    is that guy banned yet or what? can we got an ip search on him and see if it stemming from another member in these threads....

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC33
    Well...I don't want to argue with you, I guess we all can have our different opinions and still get along. I know that if other teams are naturalizing players in the next Asian Championships that eventually China will do the same. I just hope that if any of us makes it to the next level of international play, (I mean the World Championships), that the other countries don't lose respect for us that we do such a thing. I mean, I am an American, and if I thought of such a thing watching the FIBA-ASIA Championships, then I know that some people of other countries might think the same thing.

    I mean, I hate to tell you this, since I know that you are all here on this message board for a different reason, but rankings are junk. It doesn't matter if you are 1st--which Lebanon might be at the end of this Asian Championships or 16th, like the United Arab Emirates, we are all equal. When judging someone, things all depend upon the person as an individual anyway.

    And I would like to apologize for the behavior of some of my fellow Chinese posters here, I think that some of their responses were too much. I mean, when I read some of their responses to what some of the supporters of the RP National Team said, I was cringing that they actually said some of the stuff that they actually said to you guys. I think somne of them care about this stuff too much.


    CARE TOO MUCH? Dude this is a basketball forum, of course posters here are going to care too much about their basketball team. This is not a COMPLAINING FORUM, which what you are doing right now. You got the best best basketball team in Asia, get over it!

  17. #17
    Senior Member saints13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantim3dx
    is that guy banned yet or what? can we got an ip search on him and see if it stemming from another member in these threads....
    I don't know about that ----, he hasn't logged-in for quite a while.. maybe he's using his other pseudo-accounts..who knows..
    Last edited by rikhardur; 08-04-2007 at 07:57 PM. Reason: No need for that
    It's ironic to see limited efforts from players with maximum salary.
    I wish they would apply "sabermetrics" in those financially challenged PBA teams to acquire players who are value for their money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zupermann
    [/B]

    CARE TOO MUCH? Dude this is a basketball forum, of course posters here are going to care too much about their basketball team. This is not a COMPLAINING FORUM, which what you are doing right now. You got the best best basketball team in Asia, get over it!
    OK, perhaps you're right.

  19. #19
    Senior Member thugpinoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC33
    Fine, fine, fine...I don't mean to argue with you. I guess if everything were perfectly righteous, at least some of the rules that I suggested would be followed and implemented, but since nothing is ideal on this Earth but individuals, I will just leave it at that.

    Plus, on that note, I believe that if all things were perfect, I think that there is one other great wrong in terms of the rules of FIBA for Asia, as another poster previously mentioned, and that is that Asia has only 1 slot to the World Championships. I think that that is just junk and unfair. I mean, if you look at FIBA-Oceana, they also have 1 slot. And, if you followed the results of the Stankovic Cup in China, then you know that the 2nd best team in Oceana, New Zealand, was beaten by China by 30 points, so the talent level difference between New Zealand and Australia, which wins that region's FIBA-Oceana slot to the World Championships year after year is great. And yet, they only give FIBA-ASIA, a land of billions and billions of people, only 1 slot to the World Championships. They justify it by saying that they give only 1 slot to Asia because of the talent level, but I think that that is ridiculous, and is full of racism, prejudice, and racist contempt, and lack of belief of the equality of Asians by FIBA for Asians, which I think is wrong. I believe that FIBA should be multinationally run, not just run by mostly Europeans at trhe very top.
    maybe Asia needs to prove more, and thats what your China Team A is doing now, showing the other regions the Asian Style of play. promoting our Continent in terms of Basketball improvement.
    Practice makes perfect, but nobody's perfect, so why practice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by saints13
    ah you mean taipan guy saying FUCK YOU FILIPINOS..lolz

    that's ok, it was so childish and uncalled for
    Yeah, hahaha. I am laughing because it was embarrassing to us. I am a full-blooded Chinese person, and those crazy Chinese posters made us look so bad. I apologize to you for all of what they said. I mean, even if some of the Philippine NT team supporters started it, so what? They should have reacted with forbearance, tolerance, and humility, and instead they reacted with vengefulness and arrogance. Give me a break. They went too far, they shouldn't have said what they said, and they shouldn't have reacted at all. I mean, in my opinion, even if China were 75th out of 75th place at the bottom of FIBA's basketball rankings, they wouldn't be inferior or worse than anyone, and even if China were 1st in FIBA's rankings, they wouldn't be better or higher than anyone at all. We are still all equal, no matter who is better at basketball, and besides different people are better at different things anyway, I mean, look at the great Philippine boxer Manny "Pac Man the Destroyer" Pacquiao. He is a great boxer. And certainly the best in his weight division in Asia. So, just ignore those posters next time, think nothing of it, and just continue on with your conversation as if they didn't exist if they post more inflammatory or obnoxious messages next time.

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