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Thread: Luka Doncic

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    Senior Member Killer Bob's Avatar
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    Default Luka Doncic


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    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    Nice play by this amazing Kid...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    He is the best player of Real Madrid, 17 years old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obina View Post

    Btw, Doncic is amazing.
    He has the same balls, leadership and ball skills Bodiroga and Petrovic had at that age.

    Once in a generation player.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
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    The most amazing thing about Doncic is, how fast is he improving. At the beginning of the season Llull looked like one of the best players in Euroleague. At this moment Doncic is better in almost every aspect of the game. He is better passer, shooter, rebounder, scorer, playmaker, defender and his basketball IQ is much higher. I don't know what will all this mean in Nba, he surely won't play Pg there, but he is one of the few players from Europe who can play there at this moment, what is unbelievable if we know he is only 17. I think Teo is the best player in Europe but Luka looks much more suited for the Nba.
    Someone will argue his lateral quickness is to slow, he has body of 25 years old, he can't guard ultra quick American Nba pg's(who can?)...But when I look at the best college kids, who will be in 2018 draft, they look 2 class behind, playing in school games with kids, they wouldn't get even a minute in Euroleague.
    Last edited by Killer Bob; 02-04-2017 at 12:47 AM.

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    Everybody has to take it easy on the Doncic hype train. The kid is amazing and he is playing a great season at 17. Definitely, things are looking up for him and he is maturing much faster than expected. Still keep this in mind:

    - He gets much less attention from defenses. Every coach in EL would take a gamble on Doncic beating them, and focus on Lllull, Ayon, Randolph etc. first. This isn't a slight on Luka in any way. Just a story of a new flavor in the league. With increased exposure and games like these, he will get different attention. That will be more of a challenge and realistic picture where he stands.
    - He is a ball-centric player. He is not terrible off the ball, but in general his game shines with the ball in his hands, making good decisions, creating for others, scoring. That always inflates the perception of the quality of the player. A guy that dominates the ball, will appear as great or terrible, depending on how he performs. Very few times, you would have a mild-balanced opinion.
    - He is not constrained in a closed half-court offensive system that some of EL teams run. He gets to run the floor more, he gets transition and spacing etc. That helps a young player a lot, since it leaves more room for errors. Efficiency in a more strict half-court offense is a different challenge.

    Again, this is not a negative look at Luka, who I truly enjoy watching. Just things to keep in mind and chill the hype train. Now regarding the NBA prospects of Luka:

    - Going to the NBA will probably be the biggest mistake in his life. He is a generational talent, perfectly suited for European basketball, where he can dominate next 15 years. Championships, F4s, titles etc. All that in his future and an absolute leadership position and center role. NBA doesn't treat backourt players from Europe kindly. I don't think he will have a bad NBA career, but it will be a role-player career who with some lack will land in a franchise that might win. In Europe he holds his future in his hands, in NBA he doesn't.
    - Regardless where he goes in the draft (a lottery pick likely), this will have little bearing on his NBA career. NBA franchises draft on fit and player ceiling. Basically, they will take a guy that will be a centerpiece of their offense, scorer, go to guy, iso monster or go for a high upside big guy (which are rare in the draft every year). These are the cornerstones of franchises in NBA, this is how teams are built. Doncic doesn't really fit either of those roles. He is really not a type of player that NBA wants to build a franchise around. That will limit his NBA career, since he won't be able to do what he is best at. He will be transformed into a universal role player kind of guy, a better version of guys like Mike Dunleavy, Matt Barnes etc. Again this not a bad thing, but a handicap to what he could do in Europe.
    - Defense is an issue yes, but not a killer overall. A lot of guys don't play great defense, and are successful. The choice of which position to play, will not be easy, ultimately will decide his fate in many way. It would be a waste of talent to turn him into a classic role swingman in NBA that haunts the corners, catch n shoot type. Staying in PG/SG type of player, that will run the offense will be very difficult. His PnR skills are not NBA high-level-ready.

    Of course he will improve, get more experience and maturity, become even better decision maker etc. All that will happen and make him even better, still I see many issues in converting him to an NBA All-Star type of talent. If he decides to go a different route, the Bodiroga route, he will be one of the all time greats.
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    I disagree. He has the talent to be an NBA all star just like Antetokounmpo. I just think he needs to stay in Europe for 2-3 years to take some muscle and improve his game.Antetokounmpo was a great talent but needed 3 years to show it on the court in NBA. He took 10-15kg in muscles in those years and still doesn't have an amazing shoot. Doncic shoots better but i think he is not that athletic for NBA right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Everybody has to take it easy on the Doncic hype train. The kid is amazing and he is playing a great season at 17. Definitely, things are looking up for him and he is maturing much faster than expected. Still keep this in mind:

    - He gets much less attention from defenses. Every coach in EL would take a gamble on Doncic beating them, and focus on Lllull, Ayon, Randolph etc. first. This isn't a slight on Luka in any way. Just a story of a new flavor in the league. With increased exposure and games like these, he will get different attention. That will be more of a challenge and realistic picture where he stands.
    - He is a ball-centric player. He is not terrible off the ball, but in general his game shines with the ball in his hands, making good decisions, creating for others, scoring. That always inflates the perception of the quality of the player. A guy that dominates the ball, will appear as great or terrible, depending on how he performs. Very few times, you would have a mild-balanced opinion.
    - He is not constrained in a closed half-court offensive system that some of EL teams run. He gets to run the floor more, he gets transition and spacing etc. That helps a young player a lot, since it leaves more room for errors. Efficiency in a more strict half-court offense is a different challenge.

    Again, this is not a negative look at Luka, who I truly enjoy watching. Just things to keep in mind and chill the hype train. Now regarding the NBA prospects of Luka:

    - Going to the NBA will probably be the biggest mistake in his life. He is a generational talent, perfectly suited for European basketball, where he can dominate next 15 years. Championships, F4s, titles etc. All that in his future and an absolute leadership position and center role. NBA doesn't treat backourt players from Europe kindly. I don't think he will have a bad NBA career, but it will be a role-player career who with some lack will land in a franchise that might win. In Europe he holds his future in his hands, in NBA he doesn't.
    - Regardless where he goes in the draft (a lottery pick likely), this will have little bearing on his NBA career. NBA franchises draft on fit and player ceiling. Basically, they will take a guy that will be a centerpiece of their offense, scorer, go to guy, iso monster or go for a high upside big guy (which are rare in the draft every year). These are the cornerstones of franchises in NBA, this is how teams are built. Doncic doesn't really fit either of those roles. He is really not a type of player that NBA wants to build a franchise around. That will limit his NBA career, since he won't be able to do what he is best at. He will be transformed into a universal role player kind of guy, a better version of guys like Mike Dunleavy, Matt Barnes etc. Again this not a bad thing, but a handicap to what he could do in Europe.
    - Defense is an issue yes, but not a killer overall. A lot of guys don't play great defense, and are successful. The choice of which position to play, will not be easy, ultimately will decide his fate in many way. It would be a waste of talent to turn him into a classic role swingman in NBA that haunts the corners, catch n shoot type. Staying in PG/SG type of player, that will run the offense will be very difficult. His PnR skills are not NBA high-level-ready.

    Of course he will improve, get more experience and maturity, become even better decision maker etc. All that will happen and make him even better, still I see many issues in converting him to an NBA All-Star type of talent. If he decides to go a different route, the Bodiroga route, he will be one of the all time greats.
    If we leave Nba story out for now, because there will be always question about his ceiling, meaning random black 17 years old fitness monster has higher, and focuses on Europe. You said he doesn't have attention from defense, the truth really is pg's can't defend him, because he's too big. if you looked to yesterday's game, Llull tried to post Larkin many times and he didn't do anything, Larkin even blocked him once. When Luka did the same, the only solution from Larkin or Beabouis was to foul him. If we look how Llull creates 3 points shoots for himself is the same story, he can't and takes wild ones. Luka goes crossover, step back and beat defender for normal shots. And if defense really concentrate on him he has great court vision, timing and passing ability and everything looks simple again, someone will say, they don't defend him well. I don't want to write novels, so my point is, Llull is that random black guy who can run like the wind and Luka is a real basketball player who can have impact on the game. Will he? too early to tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    If we leave Nba story out for now, because there will be always question about his ceiling, meaning random black 17 years old fitness monster has higher, and focuses on Europe. You said he doesn't have attention from defense, the truth really is pg's can't defend him, because he's too big. if you looked to yesterday's game, Llull tried to post Larkin many times and he didn't do anything, Larkin even blocked him once. When Luka did the same, the only solution from Larkin or Beabouis was to foul him. If we look how Llull creates 3 points shoots for himself is the same story, he can't and takes wild ones. Luka goes crossover, step back and beat defender for normal shots. And if defense really concentrate on him he has great court vision, timing and passing ability and everything looks simple again, someone will say, they don't defend him well. I don't want to write novels, so my point is, Llull is that random black guy who can run like the wind and Luka is a real basketball player who can have impact on the game. Will he? too early to tell.
    Again, I am not bashing Luka in any way just pointing out some things. Try to think about it this way. What are some of the games in which he really struggled this year? Against which teams were they? What do these teams have in common and what is that they really excel at defensively. This will more or less give you a better picture of what I was talking about in the first part (not the NBA thing). He has a great skillset that will make him a monster long term, but every player can be limited especially with defense that is allowed in EL. Think about it this way. Supreme creators for their team like Teodosic, Doncic, Diamantidis, Spanoulis etc. how do you successfully defend them and stop them from damaging you? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the quality or type of defender that is guarding them.

    Again, Luka is a wonderfully smart player that can overcome pretty much everything that you throw at him or his physical limitations in some aspects. This is why he should be Europe bound forever, since his talent, influence on the game will be appreciated. Rather than NBA. Keep in mind that NBA, made Manu become a sixth man (and that was done by a supreme coach with a lot of respect for "Euro-Style") and didn't give him a legit chance to be the franchise player. If one European guard was not deficient in terms of athleticism and pure scoring, it was Manu and he didn't get a chance to fully shine in the fucking Spurs, which are a premium franchise. NBA looks at that in terms of pure math. If you are my franchise player, I will give you 25 possessions per game that you will have to finish/execute etc. What can you give me there? European talents very, very rarely shine in those metrics unless they are big men. Guards just get decimated in that approach. That is why I worry about Luka and NBA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Again, I am not bashing Luka in any way just pointing out some things. Try to think about it this way. What are some of the games in which he really struggled this year? Against which teams were they? What do these teams have in common and what is that they really excel at defensively. This will more or less give you a better picture of what I was talking about in the first part (not the NBA thing). He has a great skillset that will make him a monster long term, but every player can be limited especially with defense that is allowed in EL. Think about it this way. Supreme creators for their team like Teodosic, Doncic, Diamantidis, Spanoulis etc. how do you successfully defend them and stop them from damaging you? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the quality or type of defender that is guarding them.

    Again, Luka is a wonderfully smart player that can overcome pretty much everything that you throw at him or his physical limitations in some aspects. This is why he should be Europe bound forever, since his talent, influence on the game will be appreciated. Rather than NBA. Keep in mind that NBA, made Manu become a sixth man (and that was done by a supreme coach with a lot of respect for "Euro-Style") and didn't give him a legit chance to be the franchise player. If one European guard was not deficient in terms of athleticism and pure scoring, it was Manu and he didn't get a chance to fully shine in the fucking Spurs, which are a premium franchise. NBA looks at that in terms of pure math. If you are my franchise player, I will give you 25 possessions per game that you will have to finish/execute etc. What can you give me there? European talents very, very rarely shine in those metrics unless they are big men. Guards just get decimated in that approach. That is why I worry about Luka and NBA.

    Unfortunately we're not in the 90's , 2000's anymore , players don't want to be basketball gods overhere, they all want to play in the NBA.
    He'll leave, the only question mark is when. He's pretty much a sure top 5 draft pick in the next year draft, so it will be very hard for Madrid to keep him one year more, that's very sad.
    To me the biggest difference with the average guard who comes to the NBA is luka's ball handling skills. He can create his own shot, and he is a terrific ball handler for his size. That's why he seems so similar to Bodiroga. In the NBA that will save him and i'm sure he can be a great role player or high quality starter. It's not the 90's , 2000's anymore it's much easier for europeans to have success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cilom View Post
    Unfortunately we're not in the 90's , 2000's anymore , players don't want to be basketball gods overhere, they all want to play in the NBA.
    He'll leave, the only question mark is when. He's pretty much a sure top 5 draft pick in the next year draft, so it will be very hard for Madrid to keep him one year more, that's very sad.
    To me the biggest difference with the average guard who comes to the NBA is luka's ball handling skills. He can create his own shot, and he is a terrific ball handler for his size. That's why he seems so similar to Bodiroga. In the NBA that will save him and i'm sure he can be a great role player or high quality starter. It's not the 90's , 2000's anymore it's much easier for europeans to have success.
    Give me a name of a European guard in NBA since Drazen Petrovic who is a franchise player? Manu comes close, but I already covered that. Everyone else, not to be found.

    It's not an issue whether Luka can play in NBA. Of course he can, easily. There are many other players who can as well from Europe. The question is whether he should and what kind of role he will have there. If he has no problems in not being THE guy in the NBA, that is his choice and all the best to him.
    Last edited by CoachZ; 02-04-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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    It's not about being a franchise player in the NBA , not every top 5 draft pick end up being one. He's only 18 I don't really the point of that discussion.
    He'll play in the NBA because every scrubs over there can earn a gazzilion dollars, do you really think he will turn down this opportunity?
    Put Manu in his prime in the team like the Nets he will be their franchise player , and he's not european.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Again, I am not bashing Luka in any way just pointing out some things. Try to think about it this way. What are some of the games in which he really struggled this year? Against which teams were they? What do these teams have in common and what is that they really excel at defensively. This will more or less give you a better picture of what I was talking about in the first part (not the NBA thing). He has a great skillset that will make him a monster long term, but every player can be limited especially with defense that is allowed in EL. Think about it this way. Supreme creators for their team like Teodosic, Doncic, Diamantidis, Spanoulis etc. how do you successfully defend them and stop them from damaging you? I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with the quality or type of defender that is guarding them.

    Again, Luka is a wonderfully smart player that can overcome pretty much everything that you throw at him or his physical limitations in some aspects. This is why he should be Europe bound forever, since his talent, influence on the game will be appreciated. Rather than NBA. Keep in mind that NBA, made Manu become a sixth man (and that was done by a supreme coach with a lot of respect for "Euro-Style") and didn't give him a legit chance to be the franchise player. If one European guard was not deficient in terms of athleticism and pure scoring, it was Manu and he didn't get a chance to fully shine in the fucking Spurs, which are a premium franchise. NBA looks at that in terms of pure math. If you are my franchise player, I will give you 25 possessions per game that you will have to finish/execute etc. What can you give me there? European talents very, very rarely shine in those metrics unless they are big men. Guards just get decimated in that approach. That is why I worry about Luka and NBA.
    When have you before mentioned 17 years old kid in the same sentence with Europe all time greatest? Never? And that's why all this hype about Luka exists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cilom View Post
    It's not about being a franchise player in the NBA , not every top 5 draft pick end up being one. He's only 18 I don't really the point of that discussion.
    He'll play in the NBA because every scrubs over there can earn a gazzilion dollars, do you really think he will turn down this opportunity?
    Put Manu in his prime in the team like the Nets he will be their franchise player , and he's not european.
    If you are a generational talent, then it is about being THE GUY. You can always be a Bogut type, a good player by all means but still another one of the dudes. If you have this kind of talent, you better be THE GUY or you are wasting talent and settling. Again if you are fine with that as a player, there is no problem. You chose to settle.

    Regarding Ginobilli, of course he is Argentinian but he is a product of European school of basketball. That was the point. He went to NBA at the right time, and he had a great start with the Spurs. He chose to remain there as a second unit guy. Again, sacrificed the chance to be a franchise player in some crappy franchise vs staying and winning rings as the sixth man on the Spurs. Again, I have no problem with that if that is his choice. All I said is if ever was a guard since Drazen that could've been a franchise it's him, since he would be able to measure up to NBA expectation of franchise guard. I am afraid that Doncic, as well as many others are not going to be given that chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    When have you before mentioned 17 years old kid in the same sentence with Europe all time greatest? Never? And that's why all this hype about Luka exists.
    I was speaking as a type of player he will be in a few years. He will be that kind of difference maker. I love Luka, I don't like the hype so much though
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    I was speaking as a type of player he will be in a few years. He will be that kind of difference maker. I love Luka, I don't like the hype so much though
    The truth is, he's already difference maker in the Real Madrid, first in Euroleague standings. Twice Mvp of the round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beno View Post
    The most amazing thing about Doncic is, how fast is he improving. At the beginning of the season Llull looked like one of the best players in Euroleague. At this moment Doncic is better in almost every aspect of the game. He is better passer, shooter, rebounder, scorer, playmaker, defender and his basketball IQ is much higher. I don't know what will all this mean in Nba, he surely won't play Pg there, but he is one of the few players from Europe who can play there at this moment, what is unbelievable if we know he is only 17. I think Teo is the best player in Europe but Luka looks much more suited for the Nba.
    Someone will argue his lateral quickness is to slow, he has body of 25 years old, he can't guard ultra quick American Nba pg's(who can?)...But when I look at the best college kids, who will be in 2018 draft, they look 2 class behind, playing in school games with kids, they wouldn't get even a minute in Euroleague.
    We all want another European superstar, but we have to be careful. Players who reach their prime at an early age usually stagnate at an early age as well. Very few can keep up the development. I mean, Rubio was great when 16 years old as well. At the end of the day he never came close to the level of Navarro. We will have to see how Doncic develops. See how he performs when a lot is expected from him. Pressure changes things.
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    Too much hype can be bad that's right. Many "experts" thought Rubio was the second coming of Jesus Christ at 16 years old, a mystical beast à la Pete Maravich. But right now he's just Bricky Rubio
    We should give him time he's so young, unfortunately because of this stupid NBA draft , things are going very fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    We all want another European superstar, but we have to be careful. Players who reach their prime at an early age usually stagnate at an early age as well. Very few can keep up the development. I mean, Rubio was great when 16 years old as well. At the end of the day he never came close to the level of Navarro. We will have to see how Doncic develops. See how he performs when a lot is expected from him. Pressure changes things.
    Rubio was phenomenal in youth competitions in that age, the craziest stats I could think of, but I don't remember him making any real impact on senior level. Doncic indeed looks like the best player in Real (I had said it last week too), but it might be our tolerant and hype-prone eyes to a 17-year old kid.
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