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Thread: 13th FIBA-Americas Championships

  1. #201
    Senior Member Phantim3dx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbe
    I think what DanMajerle stated was pretty obvious. Guys were travelling all the time. That doesn't take anything away from the US, they were clearly the best team in this tournament. But if you don't think things like this (there were many more obviously) not being called are disgrace to fundamental basketball as we like it, please raise your hand.
    travelling all the time..its all been talked here that officiating will never be perfect, officiating is a pretty difficult job. not everyone will always be happy. it just is so sickening at how bias and how pro-euro this board is MANY TIMES, because the better team won. EVERYONE commits fouls, violations. dont tell me the in the euroleague and other leagues there was never a violation call on travelling or it has been let go a few times.

    the better team won that's all there is to it, heck i even complained when usa played italy last yeard and how horrible i thought and bias the officiating was against team usa. in the end spain won gold, greece beat usa, im not going to cry over spilled milk and say officiating is so horrible that it's not as good as euro refs and in europe, that bs and superficial for others to say that
    "A nationality that easily feels wronged is an insecure one, and one that will be difficult to progress."-Anonymous

  2. #202

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    what about the tournament 1st team ?

  3. #203
    Senior Member robbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantim3dx
    travelling all the time..its all been talked here that officiating will never be perfect, officiating is a pretty difficult job. not everyone will always be happy. it just is so sickening at how bias and how pro-euro this board is MANY TIMES, because the better team won. EVERYONE commits fouls, violations. dont tell me the in the euroleague and other leagues there was never a violation call on travelling or it has been let go a few times.

    the better team won that's all there is to it, heck i even complained when usa played italy last yeard and how horrible i thought and bias the officiating was against team usa. in the end spain won gold, greece beat usa, im not going to cry over spilled milk and say officiating is so horrible that it's not as good as euro refs and in europe, that bs and superficial for others to say that
    Damn, I wrote the US deserved to win, and if I write that, I mean it that way.

    I just hate seeing all the violations, whoever commits them. I want to see basketball, not a player taking two steps before starting to dribble or commiting a violation with the first step repeatedly. I actually criticize the way the game is being refereed on from 2006, not your team. I just think that is a worrying development in international basketball. This is not about the referees' right to make mistakes, they're human after all. It's about what they're told to do, and that is obiously, to let players get away with travelling violations. Maybe in order to make the game more attractive.

  4. #204
    Senior Member Phantim3dx's Avatar
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    if that is the case, my apologies. i sent you a pm about this matter.




    Quote Originally Posted by robbe
    Damn, I wrote the US deserved to win, and if I write that, I mean it that way.

    I just hate seeing all the violations, whoever commits them. I want to see basketball, not a player taking two steps before starting to dribble or commiting a violation with the first step repeatedly. I actually criticize the way the game is being refereed on from 2006, not your team. I just think that is a worrying development in international basketball. This is not about the referees' right to make mistakes, they're human after all. It's about what they're told to do, and that is obiously, to let players get away with travelling violations. Maybe in order to make the game more attractive.
    "A nationality that easily feels wronged is an insecure one, and one that will be difficult to progress."-Anonymous

  5. #205
    Senior Member robbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantim3dx
    if that is the case, my apologies. i sent you a pm about this matter.
    No problem, I think you just misjudged my post.

    And China is China, after all.

  6. #206
    Senior Member Federoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L8DBACK
    FIBA officiating has always been bad! Don't you think that Argentina or any other teams didn't committed fouls or violations that were not called. It seems that you are not too happy about the USA winning the Gold. It will depend how bad the officiating will be next year whether it will hurt the USA or not. By the way, I didn't hear any complaints from the other teams about how the US commited offensive fouls and traveling violations over and over.
    Exactly. Even in victory, in dominate fashion at that, the USA bashing continues on this forum. I observed all 10 US matches, and while violations occurred at times, as they are bound to happen in basketball, the American players weren't getting away with egregious violations like some on here suggest. There were officiating errors in all the matches I watched, including games not featuring the US. Poor decisions/judgements are just the nature of any level of basketball, but the criticism becomes more amplified in international basketball because people allow their nationalist passions to overwhelm their perceptions. Hence, because the US is disliked, they're seen as getting favoritism by FIBA referees, when in fact, the US players were at the mercy of bad refereeing just like all the other teams. The referees had nothing to do with why the US defeated opponents by 30-40 point margins, but you can't convince that to the unreasonable. They would have us believe David Stern paid FIBA refs to cheat to ensure that US would make it to Beijing so the NBA could meet its marketing quota in the world's biggest market.
    Last edited by Federoy; 09-08-2007 at 05:54 AM.

  7. #207
    Senior Member Federoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbe
    Damn, I wrote the US deserved to win, and if I write that, I mean it that way.

    I just hate seeing all the violations, whoever commits them. I want to see basketball, not a player taking two steps before starting to dribble or commiting a violation with the first step repeatedly. I actually criticize the way the game is being refereed on from 2006, not your team. I just think that is a worrying development in international basketball. This is not about the referees' right to make mistakes, they're human after all. It's about what they're told to do, and that is obiously, to let players get away with travelling violations. Maybe in order to make the game more attractive.
    If you're in favor of tightening up the rules, why limit it to just travelling? Those illegal (by NBA & NCAA standards) moving picks and screens the Greeks used to beat the US in last year's WC is not "pure" basketball either, and neither is the off-the-ball clutching and grabbing. It's all about interpretation, and I doubt FIBA has gotten or will ever get a handle on how rules are interpreted by each individual official, and we see the same thing in rugby, tennis, football and other sports. Every rule in basketball is a judgement call, and with the speed and athleticism in today's game it would be awfully damn hard for FIBA to asks its referees to correctly interpret every low post play and drive to the basket to a tee. You said it yourself, they're only human.

  8. #208
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    Team USA 2007 no match for Magic and the Dream Team of 1992

    The Americans fielded a hoops squad in the FIBA Americas Cup that had aficionados salivating, opponents giving up before tip-off, and columnists making comparisons between Bron's boys and Jordan's jumpers.
    'If Team USA 2007 is good enough to get Magic Johnson drawing comparisons, surely we can rationalize making comparisons ourselves'
    The performance of Team USA at the FIBA Americas tournament has created a stir among basketball fans across the world.

    The Americans have struggled to dominate the competition over the past few years, with notable losses to Argentina, Yugoslavia, Spain, Puerto Rico, Lithuania, and Greece. However, with a revamped programme that finally has the support of the country's biggest stars, Team USA seems relevant again.

    Magic Johnson, who sat courtside for some of the games, commented on this year's squad saying: "They remind me of us," referring to the 1992 squad that is considered to be the best team ever compiled.

    If Team USA 2007 is good enough to get Magic Johnson drawing comparisons, surely we can rationalize making comparisons ourselves. The original dream team had a victory margin of 43.8 points, this year's team averaged 40.5. Still, even with the similarities, it is impossible to really take this comparison seriously unless USA dominates in a similar fashion at the Olympics in Beijing next year. Nonetheless, I'm going to go ahead with it anyway.

    Guards
    1992: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler, and John Stocton.
    2007: Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Chauncey Billups, Deron Williams, and Michael Redd.

    While Jason Kidd and Kobe Bryant are at the top of their positions world-wide, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan are the top in their positions all-time. Magic has the edge over Kidd, Jordan the edge over Kobe, and the bench is even more lopsided. Billups, Williams, and Redd have all played very well in the tournament, but I don't know anyone who would take that group over a young combo of Stockton and Drexler.

    Forwards
    1992: Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Chris Mullen, Scottie Pippen, and Christian Laettner.
    2007: Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Tayshaun Prince, and Mike Miller.

    Nobody can doubt the abilities of Bird, Malone, Barkley, and the rest of the 1992 forwards. However, Lebron and Melo bring quite the challenge. Carmelo Anthony has been Team USA's best performer over the past five years and 'Bron is considered to be on the road to greatness. As of right now, the edge has to go to the 1992 team because of depth and longevity. Ten years from now, however, we might be looking back at Kidd, Kobe, Melo, Bron, and Amare as being the most athletically gifted starting five ever put together. Forget ten years from now, they could easily be considered that already. However, athletic abilities don't trump the 1992 squad's compilation of basketball greatness.

    Centers
    1992: David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.
    2007: Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, and Tyson Chandler.

    In 1992, David Robinson was nearing his prime. He was named the defensive player of the year with almost 4.5 blocks per game. He also managed to put up 23 ppg and 12 rpg that year in the NBA. Patrick Ewing wasn't too bad either (24 ppg, 11.2 rpg, and 3 bpg).

    Although Stoudemire and Howard are dominant in their own right, they aren't considered to be elite at this point; there are a handful of better big men in the league today such as Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Bosh, and Andrew Bynum (Mitch Kupchak told me to add him to the list).

    Overall
    The 1992 team is still the best team to ever be put together. Ten of the twelve players from the '92 team were included on the NBA's Greatest 50 Players list that was released in 1996. I don't doubt that Kobe, Lebron, Melo, Kidd, and possibly a couple others from the 2007 team will have a chance to make such a list in the future, but even that doesn't match them up with the original Dream Team.

    Team USA 2007 are a well coached team that have displayed better chemistry than what was expected. They have given hope to a country that has been let down too many times in the recent past. They are dominating everybody that steps in their way while preparing themselves for Olympic gold. However, they aren't the greatest of all-time . . . yet.


    source:
    sportingo.com
    09-10-07
    chad kettner

  9. #209
    Senior Member robbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Federoy
    Exactly. Even in victory, in dominate fashion at that, the USA bashing continues on this forum. I observed all 10 US matches, and while violations occurred at times, as they are bound to happen in basketball, the American players weren't getting away with egregious violations like some on here suggest. There were officiating errors in all the matches I watched, including games not featuring the US. Poor decisions/judgements are just the nature of any level of basketball, but the criticism becomes more amplified in international basketball because people allow their nationalist passions to overwhelm their perceptions. Hence, because the US is disliked, they're seen as getting favoritism by FIBA referees, when in fact, the US players were at the mercy of bad refereeing just like all the other teams. The referees had nothing to do with why the US defeated opponents by 30-40 point margins, but you can't convince that to the unreasonable. They would have us believe David Stern paid FIBA refs to cheat to ensure that US would make it to Beijing so the NBA could meet its marketing quota in the world's biggest market.
    There were a hell lot of violations. I can't believe you are writing this. Maybe you are just being used to NCAA and NBA officiating. Further, if you want to reduce every whisper of criticism on nationalistic feelings and dislike of the US, I don't want to disturb you in your simple world out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Federoy
    If you're in favor of tightening up the rules, why limit it to just travelling? Those illegal (by NBA & NCAA standards) moving picks and screens the Greeks used to beat the US in last year's WC is not "pure" basketball either, and neither is the off-the-ball clutching and grabbing. It's all about interpretation, and I doubt FIBA has gotten or will ever get a handle on how rules are interpreted by each individual official, and we see the same thing in rugby, tennis, football and other sports. Every rule in basketball is a judgement call, and with the speed and athleticism in today's game it would be awfully damn hard for FIBA to asks its referees to correctly interpret every low post play and drive to the basket to a tee. You said it yourself, they're only human.
    I don't like it either. The travelling violations not being called are just a new development, so I posted. Moving screens and holding and grabbing aren't. And I actually don't care who beats who because of how a game was being officiated.

    And I actually don't see where in this thread it was being written, that the US won the tournament because of the officials (no-
    )calls. Quotes, anyone?

  10. #210
    Senior Member Jokinen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alermac


    Kammerichs: big defense and rebounding, plus key baskets and blocks against Brazil. And his mustache is simply too good for this world.
    .
    , yeah... its pretty cool

  11. #211
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    Thumbs up FIBA Americas = success.

    New to the forums, and I do not see an intros thread, but I will go ahead and introduce myself. I am Bongaboi, and I am glad to be here.

    Anyway, I have to say that the home team deserved to go undefeated and win the FIBA Americas. This team is on a mission. And I think they want to have another crack at the Greeks for what they did to them in 06. They're hellbent for Hellas.

    Since Bill Walton was hinting at "FIBA Las Vegas", I decided to make a rendition. Here it goes.

    Bright lights city gonna set the nets,
    gonna set the nets of fire.
    There’s a couple of Beijing '08 berths on the line
    to keep the stakes up high.
    There’s thousands of spectators waiting out there.
    And they’re all watching, the bookie may care.
    And I’m just a bookie with money to spare, so
    FIBA Las Vegas. FIBA Las Vegas.

    Now I wish that there were more
    than forty minutes in a game,
    but even if there were another four and four,
    I wouldn’t hang my head in shame.
    There’s Deron, Anthony, Chandler, and Kidd on the wheel.
    Howard, Amare, Prince and Redd keeping it real.
    Miller and Chauncey Billups making blocks, boards and steals.
    FIBA Las Vegas. FIBA Las Vegas.

    FIBA Las Vegas, with your qualification
    and the entire nation watching
    all those jump shots getting drained.
    FIBA Las Vegas, Kobe bringing the Showtime,
    King James bringing it on primetime.
    If they win it once, they’re gonna win again and again.

    I’m gonna go on a run, I’m gonna have me some fun
    even if it costs me some NBA dimes.
    And when I get that gold medal, then I’ll always remember
    that I had a swing of a time.
    I’m gonna give it everything I got.
    Coach Krzyzewski, please, let my dunks stay hot.
    Rainbow threes and free throws made on every shot. Swish!
    FIBA Las Vegas,
    FIBA Las Vegas,
    FIBA Las Vegas,
    FIBA, FIBA, Las Vegas!
    Yeah!

  12. #212
    Senior Member Federoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbe
    There were a hell lot of violations. I can't believe you are writing this. Maybe you are just being used to NCAA and NBA officiating. Further, if you want to reduce every whisper of criticism on nationalistic feelings and dislike of the US, I don't want to disturb you in your simple world out there.

    I don't like it either. The travelling violations not being called are just a new development, so I posted. Moving screens and holding and grabbing aren't. And I actually don't care who beats who because of how a game was being officiated.

    And I actually don't see where in this thread it was being written, that the US won the tournament because of the officials (no-
    )calls. Quotes, anyone?
    Yeah, I saw a good portion of the tournament --and don't tell me you were in Las Vegas watching the entire tournament live that made you draw your conclusions, then that would force me to call you a desperate liar-- and I can safely say that you're exaggerating the amount of violations committed by the US, period. I'm not suggesting that the US didn't get away with braking the rules every now and then (what team doesn't when you factor in FIBA officiating?), but this suggestion that there "were a hell lot of violations" by you and those most critical of the US is complete bullshit (or bockmist if you're really a Deutschlander.) But then again, I'm sure you would argue that since I'm an American I've been watching tainted basketball all my life and can't identify with how the international game is suppose to be played. Right. What simple world are you referring to? LMAO!!! Since you insist on believing that I'm some US homer who attacks posters because they're picking on my poor little basketball team, you obviously haven't been paying attention to any of my post over the last 2 1/2 years. I don't play favorites to any nation (including my own) when it comes to critically analyzing how a team performs. The US has a lot of work to do if it expects to win gold in Beijing. Most Americans who are ardent followers of international basketball, like myself, recognize the issues that they have. There are still defensive lapses, complacency, stagnation on offense, and isolation basketball that could kill the US's chances of winning anything, much less a gold medal. Hell, at this point, I can't even say the US looks like the best team in the world, despite how dominant they looked at the Tournament of the Americas. That title goes to Spain, Lithuania or an "A" list Argentina squad.

    Having said that, if people want to be critical of the US, be critical for the reasons I mentioned above, but when people like K2 blasts the US for every reason he/she can think of and aren't willing to give the US credit for anything it does, that's the sort of stuff that bothers me and that's the sort of lame criticism that happens far too frequently on this forum.

    As for your comments about traveling, poorly called basketball is poorly called basketball. It doesn't matter if it's a recent development (traveling) or an ongoing one (clutching and grabbing), the game needs to be standardized and cleaned-up for everyone's benefit. Your suggestion that FIBA is mandating to its officials to be more lax in enforcing traveling is a bit of an erroneous claim, and how you could support such a claim is beyond me. I've been watching international basketball since 1990, and the same inconsistent whistles on traveling existed back then as they do now. You may disagree, but it's crossed my mind that maybe it's the quality of officiating that's the real issue and not some farflung notion that FIBA is conspiring to make the game more "attractive" by not enforcing traveling.
    Last edited by Federoy; 09-11-2007 at 08:05 AM.

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