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Thread: Has International Basketball Gotten Worse?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    In basketball it is far harder to make an upset against a very good team than in football. A very good organized defense can take you very far. In basketball you have to score.

    That said, how many US states would be able to beat the USA?
    My point is NOT that USA is the exact standard to which all countries can achieve but that these other countries could maximize their talent like Lietuva and increase wins. Also they could be more formidable and yes beat USA. To answer your question. If I count college transfers as state membership then there are a number of states that could beat or at least compete well with team USA. Maybe 3 or 4 states.

    Here is something to think about if the Serbian team had PG: Goran Dragic & Mios Teososic SG: Bogdan Bogdanajvic, Bojan Bogdanavic SF/C Nikola Vucevic, Dario Saric, Raduljica, Jokic, Nemanja Belijica, Kallenic and other players from this Serbia team. They would be formidable. They would probably not loose by 30pts to this current USA team. They may even win.

  2. #42
    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    Once again, no one cares about handball. Barcelona wants to be a big team which invests some money in all sports. Indoor football is even more popular than handball. Germany invests some money in it, but the public takes it lightly. No one really knows handball players, no more than they do players from the basketball bundesliga. Everyone knows Dirk though.
    Loool, Zelezerac Skopje made it into top 5 last year in futsal uefa CL. With 1 milion euro budget.

    Lool handball is second biggest sport in Germany, top clubs has bigger budgets than Alba Berlin, etc. You know French basketball champion 6 milion euro budget, PSG handball 20.......

    I know you want to insult the sport. Cuz it is national team sport in Macedonia but hey EC and WC has about 8500 public average per game... Baskeball EC not even close even with 4 host.
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    I think Colangelo's frustration is not that other nations can't defeat the USA; rather, he's frustrated they can't beat Serbia. Speaking for myself, if the USA faces Serbia again in the next final, then I might lose interest in FIBA competition. More importantly, the elite USA players might feel the same. That's no slight to Serbia. In fact, I admire them; there isn't much excitement in beating a nation that's at such a disadvantage in population. What up, Brazil? What up, Russia? You seriously can't field a team to beat a nation of 7 million.

    If Australia and Canada can get their national teams competitive on a consistent basis, then that would makes things interesting from an American perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno Díaz es Batman View Post
    Sure, but here people don't wanna play basketball, in Europe people wanna play football, and it's not gonna change because Colangelo has said this.

    And in football with an average athleticism and a great tactical work a team can achieve many successes, while in basketball technical talent and the physical is much more essential.

    Sorry for my poor english, I'm learning it.
    I do not believe Colangelo believed basketball will be the number 1 sport in Europe. He is just an old man who LOVES basketball & is passionate about it. He did not intend disrespect.

    My point was that if basketball was more popular there would be more talents discovered in Europe. That is all. Your English is fine����

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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post

    Lool handball is second biggest sport in Germany, top clubs has bigger budgets than Alba Berlin, etc. You know French basketball champion 6 milion euro budget, PSG handball 20.......
    Well, let's see here. handball budgets and basketball budgets in Euroleague and domestic leagues

    I would say the average handball budgets of Germany, France, Spain altogether are somewhat lower than the average basketball budget of the Adriatic basketball league which in 2013 averaged 3.3 million euro's per team. There's more money floating around in the VTB United league, than the whole handball world.

    Also, looking at the German teams it is evident that the basketball teams in Germany have higher budgets than handball teams. Moreover, only two handball teams in France have higher budgets than the top basketball teams of the French league. I find that understanding since France has zero Euroleague teams, while they are contenders in handball with more or less similar budgets. As for most of the rest of Europe, I won't even comment on that.
    Last edited by Victorious; 08-22-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raze Lupin View Post
    I do not believe Colangelo believed basketball will be the number 1 sport in Europe. He is just an old man who LOVES basketball & is passionate about it. He did not intend disrespect.

    My point was that if basketball was more popular there would be more talents discovered in Europe. That is all. Your English is fine����
    David Stern once said that we can't make basketball the number 1 sport in the world, but we can try to make it the number 2 sport in most countries of the world.
    Last edited by Victorious; 08-22-2016 at 10:30 PM.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    Well, let's see here. handball budgets and basketball budgets in Euroleague and domestic leagues

    I would say the average handball budgets of Germany, France, Spain altogether are somewhat lower than the average basketball budget of the Adriatic basketball league which in 2013 averaged 3.3 million euro's per team. There's more money floating around in the VTB United league, than the whole handball world.

    Also, looking at the German teams it is evident that the basketball teams in Germany have higher budgets than handball teams. Moreover, only two handball teams in France have higher budgets than the top basketball teams of the French league. I find that understanding since France has zero Euroleague teams, while they are contenders in handball with more or less similar budgets. As for most of the rest of Europe, I won't even comment on that.

    Lool that wos 4 years ago. Lot has changed every since.

    PSG Handball with 16.5 million EUR budget beat Zlatan Ibrahimovic!
    http://www.handball-planet.com/lnh-p...n-ibrahimovic/

    This wos last year, they incresed it with 3 more milions this year.

    Barca have 17-18 milion 2016/2017. 10 milion for players, rest for administration and youthe.

    I am telling you, MZT Skopje would have done OK in basketball EL with 12.000.000 euros that RK Vardar have today.
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    Lots has changed in VTB and Adreatic league my Greek Friend. Most of the VTB teams lose in the Fiba cup today. I can insure you that 10 adreatic teams has between 400,000 - 600.000 euros budgets today. Crvena Zvezda 5.2 milions is the only team obove 2 milions today. Cedevita 1.5.

    My friend it has been a catastrophe economic fall in adreatic league.. Same with VTB, only 3-4 teams left with money.

    Handball on the other side have a positive trend. Hugaryans teams has between 12 do 15 milion euros today, also polish CL winner 2015/2016 Kielce has a monster budget.

    + budgets aint allways the best way to measure popularity. Almost no one care about basketball in Russia, it is money laundering in Russia and not based on true interest. Handball interests in Scandinavia is much much bigger than basketball interest in Russia.
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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post
    Lots has changed in VTB and Adreatic league my Greek Friend. Most of the VTB teams lose in the Fiba cup today. I can insure you that 10 adreatic teams has between 400,000 - 600.000 euros budgets today. Crvena Zvezda 5.2 milions is the only team obove 2 milions today. Cedevita 1.5.

    My friend it has been a catastrophe economic fall in adreatic league.. Same with VTB, only 3-4 teams left with money.

    Handball on the other side have a positive trend. Hugaryans teams has between 12 do 15 milion euros today, also polish CL winner 2015/2016 Kielce has a monster budget.

    + budgets aint allways the best way to measure popularity. Almost no one care about basketball in Russia, it is money laundering in Russia and not based on true interest. Handball interests in Scandinavia is much much bigger than basketball interest in Russia.
    Look, I don't mean to bust your balls. Really, I can appreciate you like handball, or any other sport for that matter. Especially if you prefer it over football. Because let's face it, football is the sport all over Europe. But the truth is that handball is not among the first three team sports in Europe. We can do this budget thing over and over, but the truth is it wouldn't come close to basketball in that respect. There's just many basketball teams (not only in the Euroleague) with super budgets. Far over the top handball teams.

    That said, in Europe, the team sport which comes closest to basketball, budget wise and spectator wise , is Ice-hockey. Ice hockey is huge in Russia as well in Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, while it is also quite popular in Germany and some other countries over the continent. Also globally, handball has almost no podium. That's what I meant about handball being a niche sport. So many team sports would surpass handball on a global scale. Football, basketball, cricket, volleyball, rugby, base ball, ice-hockey. You name it. But that's all fine, I wouldn't care less if handball was my passion.

    Now more importantly, you made an argument that Skopje would do well in the Euroleague because they would supposedly have a 12 million euro budget. Actually, it's not that simple. First of all, almost all teams (aside from 2-3) in Euroleague would have a similar or far higher budgets. How many times did we see teams with top budgets not being able to make it in the Top 8 of the Euroleague? Secondly, aside from budgets certain expertise is necessary to compete in the EL. And that you can only get over time. Thirdly, in order for Skopje to participate in the Euroleague they have to become Champions in the Adriatic league and repeat it over and over again. So as a manager of MZT Skopje, you would need invest a lot of money, create a winning tradition, win the Adriatic league, then compete in the Euroleague and probably won't even make the top 10, while at the same time you have to become Adriatic champions again otherwise you will not play in the Euroleague next season. Moreover, top players would not want to play for MZT Skopje basketball, because they would not even play in the Euroleague to begin with. So as a result you end up using your 12m budget overpaying average players who can not guarantee you a qualification for the Euroleague, much less being a top 8 contender.

    Would it make much sense to you to invest so much money on the basketball team with so much uncertainty? Or would you spend it on the handball team and be a possible contender? This is what motivates some organizations to invest in handball.
    Last edited by Victorious; 08-26-2016 at 07:24 PM.
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    It's a fact that it's gotten worse, but it's very hard to explain the reasons. It could be simple coincidence that there were less talent and it could be the consequence of Capitalism (I'm talking about Europe). I don't see kids any more living in the BB courts (and we used to do that), they are playing video games, coaches are talking about kids being more lazy these days, having overweight and attitude problems. In Europe, specially outside essential nations of the continent, the middle class became fatter and calmer. Also Capitalism kills national pride and players now want contract and not glory. Internet and western movies build easy and fast success myth which these days surely playing some part. I think that might be one of the reasons why plenty of European NTs are worse these days. USA provides a lot of talent from low class environment and those follows are more down to the grown and knows they have to fight to survive, American blacks are still living in the BB courts I suppose. On the other hand, this theory is not complete because internet open up everything and now Europeans understand they have to work on their individual skills, they see NBA from every corner and eventually I think they will imitate that culture and will succeed. My theory also brakes a part a bit, because current core of Lithuania f.e. still are more of a kids of Soviet Union and early Capitalism than wealthy, boring times and yet they are simply less talented and I actually can see much more talented generation coming in 4-8 years.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 08-26-2016 at 04:49 PM.
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    Biggest problem is lack of PT and freedom for young players. We saw loads of kids going to Barca and Real, but only few like Rubio, Hezonja and Mirotic got PT. And all had strict roles. The fact only Porzingis and Giannis A. match quality of previous stars says a lot. And one was coached by Aito, other escaped europe on time. Even very good player Bojan Bogdanovic could not crack into Real team.
    Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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    I once considered NCAA as a weakness for the US talent development. In the last decades however, the trainings there, the knowledge of the staff etc. far surpassed their european counterparts, especially when taking into the account 18-22 years olds get loads of playing time there on a really wide scale, while in europe only those top prospects crack the lineups for a few minutes and moreoften get a sidekick roles as well.
    When half of the euro talent stop playing bball either due to injury, missing on some NT selection and stuff like that, thousands of US players get education, expsure and great training enviroment along with responsibilities on court, due to the level not being as big of a quality jump as f.e. running some decent european team from a PG position is for a 18-22 years old.
    f.e. 20 y.o. PG in German first league will probably have his role of getting the ball on the offensive half, trying to set some plays, spend most of his energy in D and occasionaly attempt a 3pointer or a drive in kick out solution - pretty limited and the higher level of game he is witnessing is not neccesarily an advantage when his US counterparts are facing with a whole repertoire of responsibilities on the level where they can actually play decently. Euro guards that seek the contact game and penetrations are pretty rare as in during their early profesional career they are strongly discouraged from doing that. Just as an example. More of those could be found imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    Look, I don't mean to bust your balls. Really, I can appreciate you like handball, or any other sport for that matter. Especially if you prefer it over football. Because let's face it, football is the sport all over Europe. But the truth is that handball is not among the first three team sports in Europe. We can do this budget thing over and over, but the truth is it wouldn't come close to basketball in that respect. There's just many basketball teams (not only in the Euroleague) with super budgets. Far over the top handball teams.

    That said, in Europe, the team sport which comes closest to basketball, budget wise and spectator wise , is Ice-hockey. Ice hockey is huge in Russia as well in Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, while it is also quite popular in Germany and some other countries over the continent. Also globally, handball has almost no podium. That's what I meant about handball being a niche sport. So many team sports would surpass handball on a global scale. Football, basketball, cricket, volleyball, rugby, base ball, ice-hockey. You name it. But that's all fine, I wouldn't care less if handball was my passion.

    Now more importantly, you made an argument that Skopje would do well in the Euroleague because they would supposedly have a 12 million euro budget. Actually, it's not that simple. First of all, almost all teams (aside from 2-3) in Euroleague would have a similar or far higher budgets. How many times did we see teams with top budgets not being able to make it in the Top 8 of the Euroleague? Secondly, aside from budgets certain expertise is necessary to compete in the EL. And that you can only get over time. Thirdly, in order for Skopje to participate in the Euroleague they have to become Champions in the Adriatic league and repeat it over and over again. So as a manager of MZT Skopje, you would need invest a lot of money, create a winning tradition, win the Adriatic league, then compete in the Euroleague and probably won't even make the top 10, while at the same time you have to become Adriatic champions again otherwise you will not play in the Euroleague next season. Moreover, top players would not want to play for MZT Skopje basketball, because they would not even play in the Euroleague to begin with. So as a result you end up using your 12m budget overpaying average players who can not guarantee you a qualification for the Euroleague, much less being a top 8 contender.

    Would it make much sense to you to invest so much money on the basketball team with so much uncertainty? Or would you spend it on the handball team and be a possible contender? This is what motivates some organizations to invest in handball.

    Lool, no. I am mostly basketball fan not handball fan and I would rather see MZT Skopje with 12 milions than RK Vardar. As a matter of fact with 12 milion euros MZT would have a medium euroleague budget bigger than 10 clubs smaller than the rest. Not sayinng they would make top 16 just saying not impossible.

    Btw i never mentioned handball as a global sport (you did) it is definitely just a european sport but that said I think is the biggest indoor sport in europe. First of all handball has way more active players than icehockey or basketball way more. In Germany 850.000, in France 600.000 and is grows very fast in France.

    + Female handball is way way way way bigger in europe than female basketball or female icehockey who is more or less non existing.

    + handball EC during the last 10 years has much much more audience than basketball EC.

    Poland 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_E...l_Championship

    (8,350 per match)

    Denmark 2014

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_E...l_Championship

    (6,732 per match)

    Serbia 2012

    (6,440 per match)

    Austria 2010

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_E...l_Championship

    (6,072 per match)

    As you can see it grows all the time.

    Basketball EC is mostly playd in front of empty arena. Not even 3000 average in Slovenia 2013, Lithuania 2011 and Poland 2009.

    difference is that handball has a lot of fans who travel + do not matter in which country EC is plays allways neighbors who love handball, basketball do not. Few Greeks and Lithuanians shows up thats all.

    Soon handball world cup in France will be 10.000 people per game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_W...l_Championship, 2019 Germany/Denmark host above 10.000 per game. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_W...l_Championship

    But back to the point. Basketball is way to small in europe to compete with USA just a fact. Greece, Serbia and Lithuania is to small nations. WE could compete with USA only if basketball gott big as football in Germany, France, Italy, England, Russia..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post

    But back to the point. Basketball is way to small in europe to compete with USA just a fact. Greece, Serbia and Lithuania is to small nations. WE could compete with USA only if basketball gott big as football in Germany, France, Italy, England, Russia..
    Agree. Just like football (soccer) in USA is way to small to compete with Europe.

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    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Correct but we love basketball and not football or handball or anything else.

    My wish is basketball to become bigger than football in europe, my dream is europe to have NBA in europe, my dream is full arena when eurobasket is playd, etc..

    Only when the sport become at least as big as football, young kids will choose basketball not football. WE need more active players at least 1 milion in Germany, etc......
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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post
    Lool, no. I am mostly basketball fan not handball fan and I would rather see MZT Skopje with 12 milions than RK Vardar. As a matter of fact with 12 milion euros MZT would have a medium euroleague budget bigger than 10 clubs smaller than the rest. Not sayinng they would make top 16 just saying not impossible.
    Just so you know. Given the above. This season the EL only has 16 teams. Not 24.

    And no, basketball fans don't travel. Or I should say that South and East European fans don't travel as much. I mean, last Eurobasket Dutch and Finnish teams had many more travelers than Greeks, Russians, Serbs, Spaniards, Israelis etc. West Europeans have a different sport culture.

    But still I think FIBA is doing a great job distributing the competitions.You made me curious and I took a peek.
    http://www.fiba.com/pr52-eurobasket-...ership-records

    The Eurobasket seems to be growing as well. Germany seems to be attracting over one million tv viewers per game in group phase. They are really doing a good job over there. Hope this continues.

    Anyway, you are right about one thing. No one in Europe really cares about female basketball.
    Last edited by Victorious; 08-27-2016 at 01:01 AM.
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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remigijus View Post
    Agree. Just like football (soccer) in USA is way to small to compete with Europe.
    The USA can assemble a team which can compete with many European countries in soccer.
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    It's interesting to know that handball is very popular in some areas of Europe. In Turkey, nobody gives any fuck to that sport and be sure many people have no idea about what it is. Basically, Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray have no handball branches and that's why handball will never be popular here. If you want a sport to be popular here in Turkey, just wish Gala and Fener to invest money on that. The story with basketball has begun with investments of Gala and Fener in 2006. Prior to 2006, basketball was sport of small group of people. Given that, IMO, if popular European football clubs invest on basketball, this sport will boom among fans.

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    In Serbia nobody cares about handball. This is not even in top10 sports..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    The USA can assemble a team which can compete with many European countries in soccer.
    I don't think so with top european teams usa don't have many chances. And in general in football weaker teams have so much more chance to win than in basketball, just couple mistakes in football can decide who wins, in basketball luck factor is much lower.
    Last edited by remigijus; 08-27-2016 at 08:47 AM.

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