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Thread: Has International Basketball Gotten Worse?

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    Senior Member Steadysoul's Avatar
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    Question Has International Basketball Gotten Worse?

    Part of the discussion in some(can't really so most) places on the web about why USA Basketball isn't doing better is how international basketball hasn't actually gotten better. The data they use to back this up is so often detached from actual game results. Vox used number of international players drafted as a measure of international talent. 538 arrives to the conclusion by only using stats based on how much Team USA is winning versus how much they should be winning. I'm not entirely sure why they reached a conclusion that isn't at all connected to their data.
    I would agree that some of the upper teams appear to be sunseting but I don't think the that's an indication of anything other than people getting old.

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    Well your sources say everything. Neither of those sites actually know the sport.

    But I have noticed some major international players are becoming much more like American prep school type ones. Ben Simmons and Exum for Australia are two of the best examples of this. Also, the players who come to the US or NBA or NCAA when younger don't always play with the same heart and discipline as in past decades.

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    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Answering to thread question - yes. Golden era of internation bball was 00s with peaking or bein' at peak such international powerhouses like Spain, Argentina, Lithuania, Greece, Russia, France, even Germany led by Dirk or China by Yao could make some surprises here and there. Yugoslavia (Serbia/Montenegro) also had great team in the beginning of decade


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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Some super teams from a decade ago are surely in their decline. Argentina reached their height between 2002-2008, Yugoslavia 1996-2002, Lithuania 2000-2005, Greece 2005-2009, Spain 2006-2012. Ever since, very few countries reached the level of the aforementioned teams. France could only beat a Spain in decline. Basically a weakened Spain team was the best team in international competition between 2013 and 2016.

    The truth is that the above mentioned teams had an excellent set of players unrivaled by most teams today. Bodiroga, Jasikevicus, Ginobili, Prigioni, Papaloukas, Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Navarro, Gasol. Just to name a few. I don't think that current teams have many players like that. Aside from the ones that are still active and close to their expiration date. Only Teodosic comes close. Bogdanovic is no Bodiroga or Ginobili. Saric is no Gasol.

    However I think things might change until the next Olympics.
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    They aren't as good but they are more athletic. There might be less great prospects but the ones there are these days are much more physically able to stick in the US and be complete players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    Some super teams from a decade ago are surely in their decline. Argentina reached their height between 2002-2008, Yugoslavia 1996-2002, Lithuania 2000-2005, Greece 2005-2009, Spain 2006-2012. Ever since, very few countries reached the level of the aforementioned teams. France could only beat a Spain in decline. Basically a weakened Spain team was the best team in international competition between 2013 and 2016.

    The truth is that the above mentioned teams had an excellent set of players unrivaled by most teams today. Bodiroga, Jasikevicus, Ginobili, Prigioni, Papaloukas, Diamantidis, Spanoulis, Navarro, Gasol. Just to name a few. I don't think that current teams have many players like that. Aside from the ones that are still active and close to their expiration date. Only Teodosic comes close. Bogdanovic is no Bodiroga or Ginobili. Saric is no Gasol.

    However I think things might change until the next Olympics.
    100% agreed.

    It is easy to realize that. Just try to make an all world team today and the one we would have in 2002-2012.

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    Senior Member Dtown's Avatar
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    Yes, but it's not in permanent decline or anything. I feel there are a number of teams that can become elite over the next four years.
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    It would be great to have decade like that in the future, but it won't happen. Even if by some kind of accident we'll have the same number of such high caliber players/stars, which I don't believe in, simply we don't have such number of tournaments where they could play in + there's no such dedication to NTs like before, when players were skipping NT tournaments only if injured. I'd be happy if we'd even stay at current level, I'm not even dreaming to have smth like 00s or even 90s


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    I think most of top picks in this draft were foreign players. This talk is mostly due to rose-tinted glasses.

    Argentina will probably not get a new Ginobili soon, neither will Spain find a new Gasol immediately (Lebron is 31 iirc and neither will the US just find a new Lebron lying around).
    Other players will come about and become the next generation's leaders. Wiggins, Simmons, Antetokounmpo are all international prospects.

    You can't say Bodiroga or Jasikevicius are better than any of the young prospects we have now because we haven't seen these young prospects mature yet.
    Diamantidis and Spanoulis both played for small greek clubs until the age of 23-24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHBB View Post
    They aren't as good but they are more athletic. There might be less great prospects but the ones there are these days are much more physically able to stick in the US and be complete players.
    I'm not as politically correct as you so I will say exactly what you mean to say; there are more black international players, i.e. Adentekoumpo, Simmons, Exum, Gobert etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    I'm not as politically correct as you so I will say exactly what you mean to say; there are more black international players, i.e. Adentekoumpo, Simmons, Exum, Gobert etc.
    Not really. It's an issue of training and preparation. Many of the best physical training practices have been transferred from USA to the rest of Europe and now the athletes are much more explosive and prepared for NBA game. So the athletic gap is smaller than before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    I'm not as politically correct as you so I will say exactly what you mean to say; there are more black international players, i.e. Adentekoumpo, Simmons, Exum, Gobert etc.
    Literally nothing to do with what I said. I'm white and I'm as athletic as anybody I know. I'm not alone there, either.

    It's about how you train.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachZ View Post
    Not really. It's an issue of training and preparation. Many of the best physical training practices have been transferred from USA to the rest of Europe and now the athletes are much more explosive and prepared for NBA game. So the athletic gap is smaller than before.
    Exactly. Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHBB View Post
    Literally nothing to do with what I said. I'm white and I'm as athletic as anybody I know. I'm not alone there, either.

    It's about how you train.
    PC nonsense. To deny that blacks overall are better athletes than whites is denial and indoctrination at its worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thespywhozaggedme View Post
    PC nonsense. To deny that blacks overall are better athletes than whites is denial and indoctrination at its worst.
    Or maybe I just know better than you do having grown up around and played against both. I've known white boys who aren't even 6 ft that can dunk regularly.

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    Being able to dunk at 6 ft tall does not mean you're athletic.
    Luke Babbit has a 38 ft vertical , do you really think he is athletic? There are a lot of different aspects : lateral quickness,wingspan,strength...
    The number of white american players in the NBA is very low and most of them have no impact role players at best. How many white us players in the ASG in the last 15 years ( Brad Miller and Kevin Love...)
    Being athletic will do wonders for you in the NBA , having a high bball iq not so much. Look at Gobert why is he in the NBA? Because he is a freak of nature that's all. The guy has no hands, can't shoot has poor vision poor court awareness but who cares. The guy has huge arms is very mobile for a guy of his size and pretty explosive. It will be enough to earn 20/25 millions dollars a year in his next deal.

    Better physical training practices will not make you have long arms that's stupid. Look if so why are there so few great white us players in the NBA? Genetics are much more important in basketball than in any other sports.

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    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Yes international basketball getting worse big time.

    Yes cilom, basketball is the only sport in the world when genetics is more importent than talent. Is much more importent to have the right size of your arm, not to tiny long legs, etc. This is the first thing scouts are looking at.

    Serbs are the tallest peole in europe of course they will be good in basketball. Not many wants to talk open about it but this is the naked truth. Sweden has the same benefit in icehockey they have 3000 icehockeyrinks and others hardly have 10.

    Point is, only in football everyone compete s with same conditions.
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    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post
    Yes international basketball getting worse big time.

    Yes cilom, basketball is the only sport in the world when genetics is more importent than talent. Is much more importent to have the right size of your arm, not to tiny long legs, etc. This is the first thing scouts are looking at.

    Serbs are the tallest peole in europe of course they will be good in basketball. Not many wants to talk open about it but this is the naked truth. Sweden has the same benefit in icehockey they have 3000 icehockeyrinks and others hardly have 10.

    Point is, only in football everyone compete s with same conditions.
    The Dutch are the tallest people in the world. And they pretty much suck at basketball. Well, at least until shortly. There is some progress going on.
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    1. Basketball as a sport has evolved over the years, even if talent pool maybe hasn't. NBA has started respecting international game, incorporating both the players and the play style more and more. On the other side European basketball seems to have understood how important physical conditioning is and have been producing more athletic players than ever. I think we are slowly approaching the perfect fusion of two different approaches and perhaps the best years of basketball are yet to come.

    2. Blacks aren't genetically superior. Some researches have shown that they have slightly ligher and more elastic bones, which makes jumping a bit easier, while whites have naturally higher muscle mass. Both of these are completely irrelevant because they cannot be compared to performance increase that proper physical conditioning provides.
    Basketball culture and player development programs are far more important than any population and genetic advantage countries might have. Dutch are supposed to be tallest in the world, China and India have ridiculous populations, and where are they in international basketball? Then look at Lithuania, small average European country in every aspect, except for their crazy basketball culture which keeps them among the best few in the world for decades.

    3. About NBA and success. NBA rules obviously favor athleticism much more than FIBA does, but here we have San Antonio Spurs, who have been combining NBA and international talent with European basketball to completely dominate the league. How tall is Parker, what's his wing span, how athletic are Manu and Timmy?
    What about physical freaks like Howard, Gobert and Jordan, are they better centers than Gasol brothers? Who was the most hyped player in the NBA for past 2 years? LeBron? No, its Steph Curry, with hard work and pure skill.

    I honestly believe that white players have been discriminated for a long time, almost like how black ones were in the original white NBA. European clubs are the same, they'll bring any bum from NBA just because he's black, so he surely can ball better than local talent.

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    Yes, and in 5 years will be worse.

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