Philippines Senior National Team Thread Vol. IV

[zairex]

Lol the guy conveniently avoided naming 3 or 4 top teams. To accommodate being included in tier 2.
Well if you think the the totality of results suggest Gilas is equal to Iran, Korea NZ and China, good luck with that

Should we include Jordan and Lebanon in the same tier as us because they sometimes beat us? Like we're not ranked ahead of them? How does the results come up up with that ranking?

If you agree that we're ranked ahead of Lebanon and Jordan then how do you justify that China, Iran and Korea are not ranked ahead of us?

Just to clarify. I measure our games against others based on the following:

1. Preparation time including tune ups
2. Year the team is together.
3. Majority of the team has FIBA experience
4. Best talent was acquired atleast 90%

If the Philippines beats a team significantly with those factors then I can say we are ahead of those teams. If we win or loss and the contest was tight throughout then I can say we are at par. If we are significantly beat with those factors then we are below them.

If we win and non of the factors above are significantly present then I will say if we win then it purely on talent which is a good thing. Because if you have talent to beat them what more if you have preparation and chemistry on you.

That why its hard to beat teams like Korea because aside from their talent , their chemistry is top notch and they play team offense and defense. While China sometimes just use their height advantage to beat teams that's why we have a better chance of beating them because of the personnel we have. As team defense needs more chemistry to beat Korean team.

I personally don't mind if we all are the same level. To go into details I rank Lebanon lower because of Fahdi will not play anymore for them and I don't think there is a replacement for him, same with Iran if Hadaddi will not play anymore. With Jordan, I think we have better standing in tournaments this decade with them.

[analyzed]

It does matter that we recognize were not producing the individual outputs like Rui, Korean shooters or big PGs to be at par with rest. . Why? So we can focus on the areas that need improvement and learn new approaches and adopt them to improve. As they say you can't improve if you don't realise your actually below par in certain areas and that your ways are not as effective as others

[art00]

duh, you don't log in or you log out.

Wow, you actually do that? You log out just to read what the people in your ignore list are posting? I’m sorry that you have to exist that way.

[analyzed]

Just to clarify. I measure our games against others based on the following:

1. Preparation time including tune ups
2. Year the team is together.
3. Majority of the team has FIBA experience
4. Best talent was acquired atleast 90%

I

If we win and non of the

.

So to be fair every Nation can use the same factors of measures you sighted despite their results, so if NZ loses to Korea after preparing a week as compared to Koreas 2 months it's not counted
And if NZ fields a 2nd tier as best players are not available and loses a game, results should not count.
When do the excuses end, when for 4 straight years from 2016 to current in any tournent or competition weve placed no higher than 5th. With an average placing around 6th or 7th. Shouldn't the results for 4 years be just around where we rank in the region? How's that not fair and objective, when who knows how much the other nations are impacted by the same excuses you use( e. g prep time)

[analyzed]

Wow, you actually do that? You log out just to read what the people in your ignore list are posting? I’m sorry that you have to exist that way.

You have to teach me how not to auto log out, I always am asked to log in before posting

[Silent Killer]

You have to teach me how not to auto log out, I always am asked to log in before posting

click remember me

[zairex]

So to be fair every Nation can use the same factors of measures you sighted despite their results, so if NZ loses to Korea after preparing a week as compared to Koreas 2 months it's not counted
And if NZ fields a 2nd tier as best players are not available and loses a game, results should not count.
When do the excuses end, when for 4 straight years from 2016 to current in any tournent or competition weve placed no higher than 5th. With an average placing around 6th or 7th. Shouldn't the results for 4 years be just around where we rank in the region? How's that not fair and objective, when who knows how much the other nations are impacted by the same excuses you use( e. g prep time)

I am not familiar with NZ prep time. If they want to then yes they can say that a factor (not a excuse). I think any coach will say that. Results are results but not always the best assessment of the national team.

When will the factors (not an excuse) will end. If we get our acts together. Its not like its a force of nature that we can't control. If we are assessing the talent level of NTs we need the factors to be consistent. Apples to Apples.

Why only 2016, why not go from 1990s where the first professionals were allowed again. Or why can't we use Iran win on Australia to make an assessment that Iran is at par with Aus.

[analyzed]

Pick however far you want to go back, (10 yrs is reasonable max) but bear in mind the most recent (last few years) obviously has more weight in determing current strength, and yes get the totality of the results (not just 1 game like Iran beating Australia) and yes average it out. use any equation you want using all the results and tell me how you can ever come up with the Philippines in top 3, I'll wait.
Since you mentioned talent, shouldn't making the NBA and number count? (developed by program and local eligible), so try that.. How do we be top there?

I'm tired stating the obvious for a few, most anyway accept this as a common understanding.

[zairex]

Pick however far you want to go back, (10 yrs is reasonable max) but bear in mind the most recent (last few years) obviously has more weight in determing current strength, and yes get the totality of the results (not just 1 game like Iran beating Australia) and yes average it out. use any equation you want using all the results and tell me how you can ever come up with the Philippines in top 3, I'll wait.
Since you mentioned talent, shouldn't making the NBA and number count? (developed by program and local eligible), so try that.. How do we be top there?

I'm tired stating the obvious for a few, most anyway accept this as a common understanding.

I rather put it in Tier than that saying Top 3. How do you rank the top 10 Asian teams without ANZ?

So your saying is as long as a nation produced one NBA Talent (which is a player sign 2 years in NBA base on your category not mine) that nation is better than a nation that never produce a NBA talent? Kindly answer?

How can it be common understanding when a lot of people disagree with you? Besides you think your assessment of talent is better than a person with NBA experience is really not a common understanding.

[zairex]

To use your arguement.

you said that

It does matter that we recognize were not producing the individual outputs like Rui, Korean shooters or big PGs to be at par with rest. . Why? So we can focus on the areas that need improvement and learn new approaches and adopt them to improve. As they say you can't improve if you don't realise your actually below par in certain areas and that your ways are not as effective as others

Meaning we are below par to Japan in talent level because they have Rui and they have a good AQ finish.

But you also said that to proper assess the talent level.

Pick however far you want to go back, (10 yrs is reasonable max) but bear in mind the most recent (last few years) obviously has more weight in determing current strength, and yes get the totality of the results (not just 1 game like Iran beating Australia) and yes average it out.

So I will use the results of AG from 1990 to 2018 which makes 7 AG events

We have bested Japan by 4 to 3 meaning we have higher talent level despite all the other factors involved. Most recently we were 5th while Japan was 7th.

Again that is your formula not mine so why rank Japan higher than Philippines.

[analyzed]

I didn't say use NBA makes as the sole basis, it's just one of the factors. Obviously we don't have prescribed weighting in coming up with how much a factor or weight we put to it

And yes I actually agree in terms of results over a reasonable period (10years) I would rank Gilas ahead of Japan, despite Japan's recent success. Fair is fair, results over period of time 4 to 8 years matter

If you go beyond 12 years it obviously is not just evaluating current player talent and team strength, as the players as far back as that are most or all retired already. As such that's a different discussion moving into overall historical accomplishments, we all know the Philippines has a rich history in the 50s and 60s a different discussion altogether.
By the way on a side note in the era of Jawo and Fernandez 80s if not for the restrictions on pro players for FIBA, I honestly believe we're the best in Asia and maybe even better than Australia, definitely better than NZ.

Oh the reason why I used a 4 year period 2016 to present, was 2016 was the 1st Yr ANZ played Asian teams with 2017 being the 1st Asia Cup including ANZ.
As you mentioned its difficult to compare teams for the period when they were in different zone competition

The results for the last 4 years,(qualifies, Asiad and Asia cup) obviously does not have Gilas in the top 5

[analyzed]

https://sports.abs-cbn.com/pba/news/2019/07/16/pba-jones-new-tropa-wants-send-back-nba-59095

Now that's an NBA talent. Eye test of what a NBA player looks like

[Sam (a.k.a.) Tuwid]

I didn't say use NBA makes as the sole basis, it's just one of the factors. Obviously we don't have prescribed weighting in coming up with how much a factor or weight we put to it

And yes I actually agree in terms of results over a reasonable period (10years) I would rank Gilas ahead of Japan, despite Japan's recent success. Fair is fair, results over period of time 4 to 8 years matter

If you go beyond 12 years it obviously is not just evaluating current player talent and team strength, as the players as far back as that are most or all retired already. As such that's a different discussion moving into overall historical accomplishments, we all know the Philippines has a rich history in the 50s and 60s a different discussion altogether.
By the way on a side note in the era of Jawo and Fernandez 80s if not for the restrictions on pro players for FIBA, I honestly believe we're the best in Asia and maybe even better than Australia, definitely better than NZ.

Oh the reason why I used a 4 year period 2016 to present, was 2016 was the 1st Yr ANZ played Asian teams with 2017 being the 1st Asia Cup including ANZ.
As you mentioned its difficult to compare teams for the period when they were in different zone competition

The results for the last 4 years,(qualifies, Asiad and Asia cup) obviously does not have Gilas in the top 5

This is significantly better content, the bolded part, I would not have been able to write it any better—like a silly omission that just got uncovered..couldn’t believe this is even possible.

Turned a new leaf I guess... all for the better, this makes for better discussion, a wider brush, and, a more positive reinforcement is the better tack if one is out to infuse some changes.

Kudos.

[prince75]

Putting everything aside and just basing the standings of the team of the results in the different tournaments Gilas joined, i dont think we belong to the tier 1 group in the Asian/Oceana region. Australia i think is a cut above the rest, then you have New Zealand, China, Iran and Korea (in no particular order). Then you had Gilas, Jordan, Japan, Taiwan in Tier 3. The chances of the teams winning against the same tier is higher if compared to lower tier team winning against high tier teams. Does not necessarily means though that the lower tier teams could not win against the higher tier team, it is just that it is more difficult and depending in the different circumstances (preparation, availability of players, injuries, luck etc.)

[reamily]

As much as i want to say that we are in tier 2, we are in good vompany with japan who had a bragging right on defeating iran and even australia in the qualifiers