Developing youngsters and playing times

[okanial]

We had 5 years of amaizing generations. But players other than Osman and to a little extent Sipahi can`t find playing time. The thing I`m wondering why big teams are paying to these players a lot money even if they won`t use them. And second thing, why federation doesn`t get rid of the managers of these young players who pushed them to Istanbul teams for more money and not to any Anatolian team or European team?

If I recall correct, Milano tried to get Sipahi this summer? What was the reason for him to stay in Karşıyaka? He`d be more in a spotlight there. Were there no interest for young guys like Koşut, Güven, Geçim, Ulubay, Uğurlu from any European team like ABA teams? In those teams they would get more meaningful minutes in less competitive environment but still can develop. It is really sad seeing Egemen Güven rots in the bench of Karşıyaka. He could have been the next Pau Gasol, he showed all the tools to become a great player but because of his manager he signed 3 years contract there instead of going to Duke. He`d be playing in an NBA team by now.

I`m happy at least Onuralp got there now and shows improvement there. I`m hoping players like Ömer Utku Al and Enes Berkay Taşkıran will follow the same route and will find some team where they can play +15 minutes.

[slice me nice]

Good points there. This issue is the biggest problem of our basketball but I don't think it is insolvable. With right and persistent steps, the development of young players will go straight. The decisions of the ones who are in the charge of basketball are important however the players should have enough vision and the goals to reach their potentials. We have always produced good talents but had problems in the time when these prospects had to transform into senior level players. There are couple of reasons that are disguised in this problem.

We need to think our league as English Premier League in football. Open competition, so many foreign players and some high spenders are the characteristics of our league. EPL struggles to produce local talents too because of the extended open competition. Under these circumstances, the priority of clubs is success rather than developing young players. In our sport atmosphere, everyone is under pressure. Players, coaches and boards are in need of success in order to avoid unseat. So, we can't compare our league with second class leagues such as VTB or Adriatic. Every team has its own huge fan base whose expectations are so high and a success is must for the sake of club. Beşiktaş, Galatasaray, Fenerbahçe and even Anadolu Efes don't give importance to develop the prospects. At least their priorities are different. In other leagues, for example let's consider Serbia; There are two high profile teams and the rest doesn't feel the pressure for success. So, they can rely on their prospects more than we do. Even Anatolian teams want to get good positions in league which limits the minutes of youngsters.

The economic dimension is another issue. The economical gap between the TBL teams and TB2L teams is above and beyond. None of the TB2L teams can afford the contract of youngsters. Our players are starting to earn a lot money when they turn 16. You can imagine the effect of this outcome on player. It simply stuns those players when they don't have enough consciousness for the life and life goals. They start to think that they are already done and no need to develop into better player. What would happen to you if you would earn 200K $ when you were just 16. You can't think straight while earning that amount of money. Since most of the Turkish players lack vision, they stop to work and goes cafes, bars or pubs instead training. We should specify an maximum amount that should be paid to Under-20 players. The current situation affect them negatively.

In today's TBL, it is so hard to develop young players but there are some solutions of course. The first thing should be done is adjusting the astronomical salaries. A player shouldn't take a hundred grand just because he is promising. The guy hasn't proved anything yet but getting some amount of money which is earned by a quality player in other league. The clubs think ''Oh, we are paying this guy this salary but he doesn't play anything so why don't we get a foreign player who is way better than him.'', the clubs have a right for this. The bloated salaries in our league is limiting their development. By adjusting the salaries of young players, we will encourage them for development. For example, a player who takes average 5 or 10 minutes per game should get how much he wants but the one who is warming bench should face these obstacles of federation.

My another solution suggestion is creating a team that is up to federation. That's a little bit utopic but can be very useful. This team will compete in Adriatic League or VTB. The salaries will be paid by the federation, the only aim is developing these players. It is the best way to solve the problem but there are some legal procedures that hinder this project.

The other thing is semi professionalism for Under-20 players. We should create a draft system for TB2L teams. I mean, the players will play with doubled licenses. For example, the players will be drafted by second league teams (because most of them want to utilize young players but can't afford their buy-outs or salaries) and be used by them during the year. This draft system will lead a wave of excitement. The team that has just reached TB2L, will get the first right to choose the player. With this way, they will boost their roster in a positive manner and the players will have good playing minutes. Of course, there are many details of this project but if federation decides to work on this, those details can come up with a solution, not a big business.

Even if you push players, it all depends players. I have some insider info in club and I can say you that Taşkıran got a lot of offer from average teams but wanted to stay here. It is a matter of vision. Egemen Güven has lazy personality and I completely deleted him from my mind. The role model for prospects is Hasan Emir Gökalp. He is doing an enormous job in Gelişim Koleji and the best guard of the league where the American PGs come into prominence. He is a hardworking guy and adding value in his game day by day. Players should want the success and always dream the big. Talent doesn't mean anything. Mental toughness and goals are what make a prospects valuable. Ömer Aşık was a terrible player but because of his work ethics, he succeeded his dreams.

Players should go and play in TB2L where the level is acceptable. Every single minute that they spend without playing costs them a lot. The encouragement of federation is playing a vital role here.

[okanial]

What about Kartal Özmızrak? He left Beşiktaş because of playing time as far as I know, is it true? I loved watching him and he seems to try to fo his best. I don`t watch İBŞB games but his stats are not bad. I think he did the right thing to go there.

We don`t need an ABA team, Federation can just encourage players and managers and even ABA teams for transfering our youngsters.

[slice me nice]

What about Kartal Özmızrak? He left Beşiktaş because of playing time as far as I know, is it true? I loved watching him and he seems to try to fo his best. I don`t watch İBŞB games but his stats are not bad. I think he did the right thing to go there.

We don`t need an ABA team, Federation can just encourage players and managers and even ABA teams for transfering our youngsters.

Yes, he wanted to leave because of not getting enough minutes. I don't know if he did the right thing by going there. The time will show this. Beşiktaş is totally a mess right now, at least he saved himself from this organization but IBB is a big question mark. I am not sure if that club is the right place for him. As I said, we need to wait a little bit more to find this out.

[vivo]

That's the answer, clearly. Despite some Fener's fans comments about not caring for local talent development, Fener is hit by this talent drought.

CSKA and Real has top level Russian & Spanish players in roster. Let's assume Fener will try to do that too. Who can they sign?

Turkish NBA players are out of reach.

For C, potential candidates would be Aldemir/Savas/Erden... these probably would help a lot, but they cost close to 1m USD/year. Who else? maybe Egemen Guven or Ege Arar. Two youngsters with unproven potential. I believe they'll do much better than Hersek & Duverioglu, two proven to be non EL-level players.

For PG, the best name is obviously Ender Arslan.. no Janketa, just kidding . It would be Sinan Guler (even if he's SG), but you cannot get him easily. Engin Atsur could help a lot, but afaik, Fener has a bad history with him. Maybe Baris Ermis, too. Sipahi was obviously and understandably discarded. The rest of the Turkish guards are no better or no more promising than Berk.

All in all, I think we must find a way to turn this tide for the benefit of all club teams and NT.

BTW, Victorious has been repeatedly mentioning that Obradovic is not a youth talent developer. I think he deserves some credit. Maybe I'm missing, but is there any example whom he could turn into a player?

This is maybe not the correct topic but what do you think of Hido's comments about an NBDL-like league, below Turkish top league, where each team will have a development team of their own? Maybe it would help to develop talent.

[Levenspiel]

This is maybe not the correct topic but what do you think of Hido's comments about an NBDL-like league, below Turkish top league, where each team will have a development team of their own? Maybe it would help to develop talent.

I didn't see Hido's comments. He was a top-level bball player; he came through Efes's youth program and he could impact the EL games at the age of 18. We haven't seen a young Turkish player resembling to that for a very long time (maybe none?). So, he knows this sport a lot better than I can even start to imagine, but I just don't trust his intentions... as you may have realized, I have a strong personal prejudice against him, due to his spineless political stance, and I'm afraid he's up to no good.

As for NBDL type league, I have two comments.

1). don't we have such a league already? TB2L, where pilot teams of Efes (at least until this year), Banvit, Tofas, KSK etc played? Will it be different, only for domestic players?

2). if a player is good, he needs to compete against the best. and he needs to take responsibility in meaningful minutes of important games. Ivkovic, and very rarely Obradovic, were doing this, but they completely gave up afterwards. Taking minutes in a 2nd rate team, competing in a 2nd rate league will not help player development much, imho.

I think we should completely abolish foreign player quota in TBL. Players who are not guaranteed to get at least 200-500k USD/year just by their Turkish passport will have to either work harder or go abroad to lower-league leagues where they can be somebody and maybe turn into a good player.

[auris1]

I do apologise for my question I am about to ask , but since this thread is active and more or less on the topic -
Where are them all young Turks from them gold medal winning teams in youth tournaments from the last 4 or 5 years ?
Players I see in eurolueage are the same ones that I have known for ages .
Where do they play? The amount of medals Turkey had won won recently in youth tournaments is astonishing . The talent is there , the results are more than positive , yet the outcome is nowhere to be seen .

[Levenspiel]

I do apologise for my question I am about to ask , but since this thread is active and more or less on the topic -
Where are them all young Turks from them gold medal winning teams in youth tournaments from the last 4 or 5 years ?
Players I see in eurolueage are the same ones that I have known for ages .
Where do they play? The amount of medals Turkey had won won recently in youth tournaments is astonishing . The talent is there , the results are more than positive , yet the outcome is nowhere to be seen .

That's a good question. I'll spare some time to make a list later.

Cedi Osman (1995) was u20 MVP in 2014, and he's doing fine. Probably the only player, so far.

His teammates, Emircan Kosut, Kartal Ozmizrak, Metecan Birsen, Tayfun Erulku are in low level TBL teams, getting meaningful minutes at least. But they're not breaking any records. Dogukan Sanli, Metin Turen, Talat Altunbey, Berk Demir, Muhsin Yasar are in TBL rosters as youngsters (i.e. - filler ups) with almost no minutes. Any of these would be a surprise if even they make it to senior NT.

1996-97-98 generation is our big hope with with Okben Ulubay, Furkan Korkmaz (NBA-drafted), Tolga Gecim, E. Arar, E. Guven, O. Yurtseven, Y. Arslan, B. Ugurlu, E. Taskiran, O. Baykan, M. Cevik, M. Akyel, K. Bayram, D. Ozdemiroglu... I wrote the whole team, because when I think of them, I see no reason for any of them not to reach NT level... but none yet has broken out.. because they have almost no playing time. maybe Okben Ulubay this year. a little.

[ab_mj]

I do apologise for my question I am about to ask , but since this thread is active and more or less on the topic -
Where are them all young Turks from them gold medal winning teams in youth tournaments from the last 4 or 5 years ?
Players I see in eurolueage are the same ones that I have known for ages .
Where do they play? The amount of medals Turkey had won won recently in youth tournaments is astonishing . The talent is there , the results are more than positive , yet the outcome is nowhere to be seen .

Good question..
I believe that, because of stupid foreign player restrictions we had previously in Turkey, their biggest duty was warming the bench and carrying the towels.. And they never had a chance to play and they couldn't improved themselves..
I am sure, of course if the rule is not changed, we will have more national players who have bigger roles in the teams soon.

That's the answer, clearly. Despite some Fener's fans comments about not caring for local talent development, Fener is hit by this talent drought.

CSKA and Real has top level Russian & Spanish players in roster. Let's assume Fener will try to do that too. Who can they sign?

Turkish NBA players are out of reach.

For C, potential candidates would be Aldemir/Savas/Erden... these probably would help a lot, but they cost close to 1m USD/year. Who else? maybe Egemen Guven or Ege Arar. Two youngsters with unproven potential. I believe they'll do much better than Hersek & Duverioglu, two proven to be non EL-level players.

For PG, the best name is obviously Ender Arslan.. no Janketa, just kidding . It would be Sinan Guler (even if he's SG), but you cannot get him easily. Engin Atsur could help a lot, but afaik, Fener has a bad history with him. Maybe Baris Ermis, too. Sipahi was obviously and understandably discarded. The rest of the Turkish guards are no better or no more promising than Berk.

All in all, I think we must find a way to turn this tide for the benefit of all club teams and NT.

BTW, Victorious has been repeatedly mentioning that Obradovic is not a youth talent developer. I think he deserves some credit. Maybe I'm missing, but is there any example whom he could turn into a player?

I just want to add one thing, we (Fenerbahçe) despite known reputation about growing youth, did significant thing in this matter, Kanter, Yurtseven, even Asik and Erden.. However Kanter has left when he had chance (Turkcan was injured and he could play 15-20 minutes, even more in euroleague) to play like Yurtseven did last year when Vesely was injured..

[vivo]

I didn't see Hido's comments. He was a top-level bball player; he came through Efes's youth program and he could impact the EL games at the age of 18. We haven't seen a young Turkish player resembling to that for a very long time (maybe none?). So, he knows this sport a lot better than I can even start to imagine, but I just don't trust his intentions... as you may have realized, I have a strong personal prejudice against him, due to his spineless political stance, and I'm afraid he's up to no good.

As for NBDL type league, I have two comments.

1). don't we have such a league already? TB2L, where pilot teams of Efes (at least until this year), Banvit, Tofas, KSK etc played? Will it be different, only for domestic players?

2). if a player is good, he needs to compete against the best. and he needs to take responsibility in meaningful minutes of important games. Ivkovic, and very rarely Obradovic, were doing this, but they completely gave up afterwards. Taking minutes in a 2nd rate team, competing in a 2nd rate league will not help player development much, imho.

I think we should completely abolish foreign player quota in TBL. Players who are not guaranteed to get at least 200-500k USD/year just by their Turkish passport will have to either work harder or go abroad to lower-league leagues where they can be somebody and maybe turn into a good player.

I am also prejudiced against Hido because of the reasons you mentioned. Nevertheless there is a silverlining: to get out of rule (recently shadow rule) of Turgay Demirel. It has been 20 years or so I guess.

1) I heard that there will be no foreign player quota in the top league. And the development league will be Turkish players only. My comment on that would be, maybe "2-3 U18/U20 foreign players" should also be allowed as it is a development league.

2) It is true that a player must compete against good players to develop. But we also have the problem of young players not working hard, because any Super League team gives them enough money right now, and they lazily warm the bench (there are of course exceptions). Now that there will be no obligation to play Turkish players in top league, they will have to work harder in the development league to be in the top league.

[Efesdxb]

The best thing is to go to an agreement with Adriatic League.
They can ask each Adriatic League team to pick a Turkish U-20 player (96 and later born - like a draft) and TBF to pay the player's salary.
If a team gives that player an average of 20+ mins per game TBF will award this team with an extra 100 K Euro.
This will need max 4m Euro budget to do that. They can get a sponsor to this on their behalf.
Maybe not a realistic approach but why not.

[Levenspiel]

here is an article by Togan Karatas on basketdergisi.com on domestic player situation after Fener's title.

http://basketdergisi.com/togan-karatas-yazdi-ev-yapimi-vs-fabrikasyon.html

for foreigners, below is a google-translate version (with some mandatory corrections).

Home-made versus Bought-from-Market
- Problems of Reading EuroLeague on Passport-basis only

After our representative Fenerbahce's championship of 2016/17 EuroLeague season, a not-so-meaningful argument started to circulate again; "Fenerbahce do not use domestic players!". According to this view, the value of this achievement was debatable, since there was no contribution to the national team! I would like to open up this topic a little bit by stating from the beginning that I strongly disagree with the argument. It is not consistent, although it's statistically correct. Here it is;

Since the 2001/02 season, the EuroLeague organization has been held by ULEB. Among all final-four teams in this period, 2016/17 Fenerbahçe was the team which gave the least amount of time to locals, and naturally received the least amount of contribution from them. To provide an overview, I calculated the local contribution of the champion teams within 16 seasons. (I kept the naturalized players like Derrick Sharp and Bobby Dixon out of the calculation to show the state of the country infrastructure, but I did include the non-naturalized local players like Ahmet Düverioğlu in the calculation.)


*thanks to Sezgin Muratoğlu who helped create the table.

When we look at the above table, the situation of 2008 CSKA and 2017 Fenerbahçe may seem to be exceptional. Here we can see that even teams who heavily relied on foreigners, such as Maccabi, had a meaningful contribution from the locals.

However Obradovic's task is not to expand the pool of national players by growing local players. He was brought here not to create a generation but to win cups, and he succeeded that. Moreover, there is no point in imposing the responsibility on Obradovic while the whole world have seen how Kalinic and Bogdanovic are developing. Turkey does not operate like a basketball player factory, but on the contrary, it works like a basketball player grinder. For this reason, the responsibility of the above table is not on him.

As I mentioned in previous posts, the responsibility is not only on the young players who are not "working". It will be naive to expect 18-year old kids, who fell in the hands of managers and get big contracts, to work hard. (Teodosic was getting € 40,000 before coming to Olympiakos and our young kids can sign contracts of € 400,000 in 2017). Moreover, it is not easy for young people to develop in a country that does not offer proper sportive/cultural/ psychological development opportunities. As Cenk Akyol said, "youngsters have to develop in our country, where basketball courts are used as parking lots, despite the system". (Saras's book "To win is not enough" is a good guide, but the specific conditions of our country necessitate other actions.)

As we can see from the example of Okben Ulubay, players can even leave the teams they have been playing long minutes and return to Istanbul. Despite applauding the valuable strategy of Giresun this season, they receive incentives of around 1.5 million TL (430k USD) only. If this number is 5-6 million TL (1.4-1.7m USD), lot of things change. I do not think the federation has a revenue problem either. For this reason, the main responsibility lies with the federation. This task can be achieved not by bringing a foreign quota, but by encouraging incentives for those who play local players (especially youngsters), by mandating academies in youth categories, by cooperating with Ministry of Education. Germany or Spain can be taken as an example. Germany aims to make their league the best in Europe by 2020. In this context; there are many intermediate goals such as financial competence and court capacity requirements.

One of the focus areas is the organizational structure in the infrastructure. The incentives set by the league and the structural moves encourage production of local players. In Spain, following the collapse in 1992 Olympics, the Sporting Regeneration Act created the basis for the top success levels Spain attained since the 2000s. In this context again, the rise of the Northern Leagues especially should be monitored carefully. Otherwise, funding from sponsors are not endless, and the local players are important in terms of providing budget flexibility as well.

On the other hand, we can also direct our young players to play in the mid-level leagues of Europe: ABA League, German League. Our youngsters who are "rotting-on-benches" for the reasons I briefly explained cannot reach to the top on senior team levels, even though they collect medals in the youth tournaments. If the teams or the federation considers player development as the primary goal, then the teacher-like coaches, such as Erman Kunter, should be hired and allowed to work without the pressure of success in the short term. A good generation depends on these factors, as well as luck. (Remember 1999 EuroBasket.) If seriously desired, you can even create teams of only locals, like the Athletic Bilbao football team.

It is obviously desirable that the domestic players are the main parts of the rotation. In Turkey, however, this is not possible in the short run. We can easily reach this conclusion by counting starter-level Turkish players in EuroLeague today. On the other hand, there is a nationally developed basketball movement or the infrastructure revolution under the success of countries such as Greece, Serbia or Spain. Those who say "play with the local players" should see this first. Moreover, it is not very logical to create such an expectation when every quality player in Europe goes to NBA without seeing even their 21st birthday. Most of the Europeans we can call the "elite" in EuroLeague today are either old or thinking about going to NBA if they are young. (For example, the fact that Cedi Osman did not develop his game this season may very well be linked to the NBA.) NBA scouts no longer choose players from EuroLeague only. Let's not forget that Porzingis went to the NBA from Sevilla, Antetokounmpo from Greek Second Division.

EuroLeague, on the other hand, is an organization that is becoming more and more globalized and targeting to grow the market. They are trying to increase their revenue and audience ratios and spread the game to the whole continent. For this reason, if the conditions mature in the future, the league can become a closed league and we can follow teams from France and even from England. (I know basketball in the UK is not popular, but there was an attempt with London Towers in 2002.) For an organization which aims to compete with the NBA by becoming a strong center of attraction in the long run, "playing with locals" will be the last thing to care about. Even Bertomeu has stated that they will not take FIBA's schedule into account, so country federations have to make their own plans. Federations will be defining the future of national teams as EuroLegue is busy emulating the NBA in all respects. In summary, it is necessary to read the historical developments in the basketball, which has become a big industry, in this context and to make the domestic player discussion in this framework.

[okanial]

I think Furkan Korkmaz is the best answer to ayone saying Turkish youngsters are lazy and don`t play. What changed in just a few weeks that he played like a seasoned pro in Banvit this year? He was always this amaizing player but Perasovic didn`t give any chance to Furkan. Sorry but if there are two players with the same talent level we choose to go with the foreigner. We will always believe foreigner is better.

[Levenspiel]

I think Furkan Korkmaz is the best answer to ayone saying Turkish youngsters are lazy and don`t play. What changed in just a few weeks that he played like a seasoned pro in Banvit this year? He was always this amaizing player but Perasovic didn`t give any chance to Furkan. Sorry but if there are two players with the same talent level we choose to go with the foreigner. We will always believe foreigner is better.

the argument is that overpaid youngsters in TBL lose motivation to work hard. Logically this makes sense, but it does not apply to all. And I agree with you that main problem lies with the coach/management approach, at least more than it is with the players themselves.

Efes seemed willing to risk a few years in 2014 by bringing Ivkovic and collecting youngsters (Korkmaz, Osman, Kosut, Kilicli, Batuk, Balbay, Ulubay, Cosar etc), but they gave up only after 2 years. With a long-term A-license in EL, and no pressure for immediate success either in Europe or in TBL, I don't know what they're afraid of.

[okanial]

the argument is that overpaid youngsters in TBL lose motivation to work hard. Logically this makes sense, but it does not apply to all. And I agree with you that main problem lies with the coach/management approach, at least more than it is with the players themselves.

Efes seemed willing to risk a few years in 2014 by bringing Ivkovic and collecting youngsters (Korkmaz, Osman, Kosut, Kilicli, Batuk, Balbay, Ulubay, Cosar etc), but they gave up only after 2 years. With a long-term A-license in EL, and no pressure for immediate success either in Europe or in TBL, I don't know what they're afraid of.

Maybw they thought it will go waste when everybody goes to NBA but this year is theor chance to replace guys like honeycutt huertal paul and granger with youngsters like Ulubay and gecim who will stay in Europe and have upside to be a real contributor