Migrants in Europe

[turk-jugoslav]

I think there are radical islamists fighting on all three sides (Assad, opposition and of course ISIS). In fact, Assad mght be leaning in that direction the least. That's why the war goes on so long and why is it so hard to find a solution. There are no clear good and bad guys ( ok, ISIS are clear bad guys), just three factions composed of many loosely connected smaller factions.

And yeah, lots of turkic speaking ones look like Uzbeks (mongol like, as far as I remember from the documentaries that's how the Uzbeks look like).

I partly agree with you, very hard to distuingish good and bad guys in Syria. Isis contains pure bad guys, we reach a consensus about it. Assad's army looks semi-secular since Assad leans on Alawite minority that always support Secular movements against Islamists. Nevertheless, it doesn't change anything. Assad is responsible of thousands of killing Syrians.

Uzbeks are our far distant relatives. Average Turkish can understand %25-30 of Uzbek language.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

This is all American fault and now europe has to pay the prize for licking the American ass. America is the one who are
responsible, they made the talibans, al kejda and IS. They made Saudia Arabia into a fundamentalist state, they give them oil and gett american protection. And europe is the one who pay the prize with refugees.

Is time for europe to end the joke relationship with america and look at Russia insteed. Russia is europe anyway.

Yeah right, what exactly isn't american fault?
And pretty much Iran and Russia have absolutely nothing to do with it. How would they, right?


The issue with these kind of reports is that when you're reading the western media, there are tons of reporters wondering if it might actualy be western/US fault and if the west does something wrong they're quite harsh on that, withut anyone even being warned let alone fired, while in the east, especialy Russia you don't see many of such attempts yet alone conclusions, some of those attempting those end up dead on a surprisingly high rate (with the utmost bizzaire explanations such as, "streets aren't safe you know" as in Nemtsov's case), to look up into their own goverment and it's influence on the outcome of all this, it would be a good time for that evaluation with Syria nowadays, let along eastern Ukraine, while the media in the east is surprisingly unanimous on agreeing it actualy is all western fault
Now, you can take that as if the western fault is that obvious that even the corrupted west can't cover their eyes, or that in the west people are actualy allowed to think and talk in that direction without being accidentaly stabbed by an umbrella with a poisonouss point by a stranger on a bus stop, with an commonly excepted explanation such as: damn! those street robbers are becoming really innovative nowadays!!! miracles keep happening...

Thanks but, you can allign with Russia all you want, the last time my folks did that, it didn't work all that well and hopefully EU will prefer skipping that part as it did throughout history.

[MZT Skopje]

You live in a deferant reality.Where is OK to steal oil everywhere since efect your daylie life in slovenia to if oil prize go up so west just keep silance.

Its prity fuck much deferant if you taste the american democracy in reality like Macedonia did few months ago. all that wos about Russian gas.

Look at this: you most watch this 8 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb0j0VcpvdM

Is this democracy black mail and say you most do as we say ? is not democracy to do what ever you want ? as exampel build Russian pipeline in Macedonia.

In how many nations USA changed goverments, 40 ? 50 ? is this normal to you ? put american torped in every goverment in the world.

In Macedonia people are supposed to vote who will be prime minister, not USA. Poeple back him up Gruevski and he love Russia and Russian gas. President Ivanov wos in Moscow not long ago at military parade.

[Levenspiel]

As a worker of oil & gas industry, I find blaming the USA for many things is justified . but not for everything.

We also screw up a lot ourselves without the US's (or Russia's or British's, etc) push. Because we have little horizons, petty goals, and disgusting moral values. Turkish government has blood in their hands. And those fucked up country rulers like Qatar's and Saudi Arabia's as well. I don't feel I'm disrespecting as they're truly fucked up puppets. Rulers of these 3 arranged transportation of truck loads of guns to ISIS, in an idiotic dream of dethroning Assad, who is not sunni but shia. They most probably didn't know what they were creating, especially the least related of them, the Turkish, who suffers the most now. As you know, those uber-rich Arabic counties with golden toilets accepts no refugees.

What Europe is facing is a tiny little fraction of ours (and Lebanon's I heard). Living in Hungary, I find their concerns too naive... little country syndrome I call it to annoy my good friends. We have millions. 3 millions. of completely unrelated people. Last time I went to Istanbul, I felt like I was transported to a parallel universe, where Istanbul is an Arabic-spoken beggar town. and it's not going to change anytime soon I'm afraid. It may not change forever.

Somebody please bring the Turkish rulers (and others) in front of justice. They're guilty of creating this tragedy for all Syrians, who obviously are only ones actually suffering, and messing up the good mood of all other happy little fragile Euro counties.

[Khalid80]

As a worker of oil & gas industry, I find blaming the USA for many things is justified . but not for everything.

We also screw up a lot ourselves without the US's (or Russia's or British's, etc) push. Because we have little horizons, petty goals, and disgusting moral values. Turkish government has blood in their hands. And those fucked up country rulers like Qatar's and Saudi Arabia's as well. I don't feel I'm disrespecting as they're truly fucked up puppets. Rulers of these 3 arranged transportation of truck loads of guns to ISIS, in an idiotic dream of dethroning Assad, who is not sunni but shia. They most probably didn't know what they were creating, especially the least related of them, the Turkish, who suffers the most now. As you know, those uber-rich Arabic counties with golden toilets accepts no refugees.

What Europe is facing is a tiny little fraction of ours (and Lebanon's I heard). Living in Hungary, I find their concerns too naive... little country syndrome I call it to annoy my good friends. We have millions. 3 millions. of completely unrelated people. Last time I went to Istanbul, I felt like I was transported to a parallel universe, where Istanbul is an Arabic-spoken beggar town. and it's not going to change anytime soon I'm afraid. It may not change forever.

Somebody please bring the Turkish rulers (and others) in front of justice. They're guilty of creating this tragedy for all Syrians, who obviously are only ones actually suffering, and messing up the good mood of all other happy little fragile Euro counties.

True the GCC (Gulf countries) did not offer to help taking any of the refugees from Syria which is really a shame considering they have the wealth and resources to do so...
There are more than 1.5 million Syrian refugees now in Lebanon but their conditions aren't that good cuz the country can't handle such a big amount... Moreover Lebanon is quite a small country and limited...

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Thanks Levenspiel, to a large degree agree on the topic, while I have to add that the world is trully lucky, without realising it, that Slovenia doesn't have some bigger geopolitical weight out there you'd be astonished by the enormous brain capacities of or foreign affairs minister, I'm pretty sure of it. And lack of geopolitical weight is the only reason we are spared from such actions and criticism.


MZT Skopje, I haven't paid much attention to that situation, however stopped paying attention to whole balkan media and their versions as it's basicaly just a partisanship, apart from basketball I ussualy go there for some good laughs now and than, even limited reading Slovenian media to the upmost possible. However how the wars actualy start has alway been a fascination and a horror at the same time to me and I've gone a long way in my youth trying to grasp it all, how exactly do those wars start. I've never come to a reasonable conclusions that could be grasped within one sentence solutions. Iraq and Syria included.

You see, I actualy do love US media. Here are the reasons why. I get to read far-left, far-right, left, right, neutral, smart, dumb, expert, amateur, emotional, rational, apologetic, confesional... just about any point of view I'd like to hear, am interested in and I get to pick the stuff I read freely, even if there is no safe place from some histerias lately. Hell, as far as I am concerned some of those might actualy be "oil-lobby related" news and their agenda might slip against my firewall, but there is such a quantity of those, they will rarely manage to impose an oneminded view unless I let them to. Interestingly enough the US Oil interest is big, however don't resent me for my scepticism when being told about US oil interests from RT or Al-Jazeera, for example

If you prefer allignment to Russia, feel free to do so. I, 1/16th of a Russian (even if that's not really some big deal), actually been Russophile for my whole life, would on the other hand prefer choosing not to, as history of their leaders could by my opinion use some significantly duller people in charge out there and I'd prefer to wait untill Russia gets a collection of those, even if those will deprive me for some really good documentary films later on.


Democracy? The best reason against democracy is a conversation with an average voter (Churchill), I forgot who said that the Democracy is flawed at so many levels, yet do tell of a better solution. And even if democracy is sometimes portrayed as 2 wolfes and a sheep voting for what they're supposed to eat for a dinner, I kind of prefer the sheep getting to vote even if that might not help all that much
If you dislike it, the beauty of democracy is that you're free to do so. I'm not going to try to dissuade you, do as you wish. Untill someone is trying to take that away from me, I've got no troubles whatsoever on how other people prefer to live.

Changing/supporting goverment in South Korea worked great for example, some others didn't. No news. US playing a world cop and choosing a democracy can go one without the other. I have never been in favour of armed interventions abroad, unless absolutely neccesary. However I also believe that's the only tool to keep the world in order and am sure a whole lot of country leaders would prefer to have US play as a world cop actualy, the recents Obama's shift in foreign policies certanly gives some clues about that, if you're willing to google criticisms on those.

People won't aknowledge it though that US lack of intervention is largey what's fueling the Syrian war out there! People believed that as soon as US stopped interfering with those poor countries there would be peace... only to realise that a whole bunch of other countries got in that game when they realised they can pursue their interest without facing against US. And here we go, welcome to 21st century geopolitics. Just as many reknowned individuals predicted it would happen.

[MZT Skopje]

Did read a book by Churchill not long ago, at least I agree when he say that history is changed every 50th year or so not to serve the past but to serve what is today. Greece is best exampel. Macedonian sun with blue color hehe even small kids know is false. Even small kid know that Aleksandar noor Filip who murdered 50% of the athenians could not stand Atenians, he would jump out of his grave if he knew that athenians 1 milon of them moved to Thesalonika 1913.

Media in america are free, com on mate you know is not true. Only media that is free in USA are small one who no one care about. CNN, etc, all are owned by huge companys that rule USA, why did you think they bought every big media in USA ??? OIL companys also own.

Did it so no one will get real information why USA moved to Iraq, etc. Did it to make sure that no one will ever know that they help Albanians cuz of money they get from narkotics, black budget money.

They even told very open 1986, we lost Vietnam war cuz of our media at home, media who changed opinion among people. We will never again lose controle of our media. Aint that scary.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Vietnam war is one of my favourite reads. The list of reasons why US lost that:
-failed strategy that didn't comply with the political goals (political goals = eliminate Vietkong; military goal = ussualy nothing more than bodycount)
-that military strategy was deprimental to the soldiers morale (win the "burger hill" with big casualties just to leave it unguarded 2 days later and repeat all over at the next site)
-US military believed they're the ones picking the fights, yet later reports aknowledged Vietkong only confronted them in a battle when and where they wanted to in 75% cases
-they have fought for a corrupt South Vietnamese regime
-the inteligence was cherry-picked to serve political interest (simmilar as prior to Iraq under Bush and right now regarding ISIS under Obama: hot topic)
-military inteligence was falsified to a large degree as conscripts prefered laying down somewhere and falsifying the report to actual recon operations
-conscripts didn't match the morale of their Vietkong counterparts, which led to development of a professional army after the war
= all those reasons couldn't be circumvented even with full cooperation with the media, some of those actualy had a big role in media turning them against the war, along with such novelties such as a war-reporters being on the battlefields for the first time, while the media did play a role and especialy prevented US to support the South again 3 years after the armstice was signed and Vietkong struck again.
If someone says to me that US will want to control the media because they've lost the Vietnam was due to it, accordingly with the above points, don't resent me for being sceptical about that.
Afterall... didn't they just retreat from Iraq due to media pressure evolving into political decisions, while numerous generals were quite vocal about the need to stay there in a limited but battle capable number, just a few years ago? if they're controlling the media, americans must trully be incompetent to fail at that!? I mean, look at "all the oil money they're loosing in Iraq as of now"...

The answer is, with the media under control as in some other countries, US wouldn't almost completely leave Iraq and with the US oil companies driving their foreign policies, they sure as hell wouldn't let ISIS disrupt their financial earns. Not to mention with the current situation in US oil industry, with those dropping prices, I'm sure as hell they wouldn't be standing still about it and should bomb the hell out of everyone to make those prices rise again, by that conspiracy theory logic. Somehow, doesn't add up.

(I could go on and on with the not that distant urges to save the US automoto industry that go unheard for all these years, it's kind of weird the US goverment doesn't do so considering they are run by oil industry...)


Just as I've mentioned "chery picking" the inteligence. I am most definately sure that you share this feeling, in ex-Yugoslavia we would never ever ever in some crazy dreams have someone claiming political establishing is re-writting the inteligence reports to suit their political agenda, now wouldn't we? Hell, most of ex-Yu citizens even nowadays don't know Yugoslavia actualy bankrupted in 1983, because noone ever dared mentioning it That's a sign of a free press and when I see a self-criticism in the media, they gain my trust. US media might be influenced with oil industry to some extent, but most of people I talk to ussualy quote either RT or Al Jazeera in the very next sentence. That makes it kind of simmilar with US role in Syria: I'm sure they've made mistakes, but blaming US for what's happening in Syria right now is simmilar as saying US media is controlled by Oil dependant companies and offering the two companies I've mentioned above as an alternative source of information. Doesn't add up a bit

And quite a noticable share of conspiracy theories fail at such or at simmilar levels, if you'll pay attention to it. US being run by some multicoorporations is one of them. US annual GDP is 16.770 billion $. Forbes top400, list of the richest 400 americans evaluates their wealth (wealth and GDP are a different matter though) at 2.000 billion $.
I'm sure you can guess which country actualy has a 110 individuals controlling 35% of the whole economy, most of those individuals were actually pretty much poor in 1990. In comparison a big portion of those 400 US billionaires either took a lot longer to build that or invented some of the stuff you're probably using daily? That proportions lead to the highest inequality indexes in that regard out there, with the exception of some Carribean states with their resident billionaire tax policies?
It's the country you say EU should be alligning to, since US is corrupted and run by a handfull of oligarchs... and oil companies... gas ones probably as well.


And in my opinion history is rarely changed, but most often oversimplified so the kids can learn some of it in school without having to make a PhD out of it. When the history gets "changed" there was probably someone at some point teaching you the history with his agenda.

[NESTOR]

Did read a book by Churchill not long ago, at least I agree when he say that history is changed every 50th year or so not to serve the past but to serve what is today. Greece is best exampel. Macedonian sun with blue color hehe even small kids know is false. Even small kid know that Aleksandar noor Filip who murdered 50% of the athenians could not stand Atenians, he would jump out of his grave if he knew that athenians 1 milon of them moved to Thesalonika 1913.

How does this concern this topic?
And i would hate to point out that since Josko, who is well acquainted with this issue expanding to multiple topics, posted right after you, a little favoritism is undeniably being exhibited.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

How does this concern this topic?
And i would hate to point out that since Josko, who is well acquainted with this issue expanding to multiple topics, posted right after you, a little favoritism is undeniably being exhibited.

Great, we've come to a point when a guy with 88 posts will preach on favoritism on the topic based on his lack of knowledge about how much Macedonians and Slovenians actualy have in common. One of my best friends is half macedonian, too bad I didn't remember that whenever banning any of the Macedonian guys here.

If you'll pay a little more attention, you'll realise this sub-forum is rarely moderated unless things go really to far, I don't remember one single occurance of any post being edited here for OT. But if you're disturbed by that fact, report the post, I'm sure we can work something out.

[NESTOR]

Good thing that the validity and the essence of my posts is associated with the number of them...I' ll be sure to post more in order to attain credibility. As for the rest, i can't understand what the relationship of Slovenians and FYROMians has to do with anything...Good job, i guess, for overcoming your personal sympathies while moderating. This topic is entitled "Migrants in Europe" and a FYROMian oh-so-innocently gives an example of falsity by evoking the "macedonian sun with blue color" and "Filip killing 50% of Athenians" as arguments that "even small kids know is false". I guess that it would be equally permissible for me to explain how untrue the belief that Greece plays good p'n'r by giving an example of how false "the red and yellow macedonian sun" is, as even "small kids know this".

I believe you should be strict when you see a provocative or derailing post concerning a sensitive matter, let alone this particular one. If you think that the afore mentioned digression of the post of MZT was justifiable, fine. Btw, i' m not disturbed by anything, i'm just trying to abide by some formalities, in all of my 88 posts. Now 89.

[MZT Skopje]

I will quote you but in GR MKD topic.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Good thing that the validity and the essence of my posts is associated with the number of them...I' ll be sure to post more in order to attain credibility. As for the rest, i can't understand what the relationship of Slovenians and FYROMians has to do with anything...Good job, i guess, for overcoming your personal sympathies while moderating. This topic is entitled "Migrants in Europe" and a FYROMian oh-so-innocently gives an example of falsity by evoking the "macedonian sun with blue color" and "Filip killing 50% of Athenians" as arguments that "even small kids know is false". I guess that it would be equally permissible for me to explain how untrue the belief that Greece plays good p'n'r by giving an example of how false "the red and yellow macedonian sun" is, as even "small kids know this".

I believe you should be strict when you see a provocative or derailing post concerning a sensitive matter, let alone this particular one. If you think that the afore mentioned digression of the post of MZT was justifiable, fine. Btw, i' m not disturbed by anything, i'm just trying to abide by some formalities, in all of my 88 posts. Now 89.

Well you might have guessed but there are times I am not all that enthusiastic about coming here, just to spend half an hour of my time just solving issues other posters create out of immaturity or pure idiotism and later get called biased by a poster with 90 posts - yeah, feel offended all you like, but as far as I am concerned you actually might be reading the forum and not posting a lot, but you could also be checking it out once per 4 months and than expect me to take your opinion about moderation of this forum seriously. You can't be for real.
FYI I skipped the segment of the post you were most disturbed with since I failed to understand the point altogether and I am answering in a broad sense with seemingly lots of OT because the "it's US fault" for everything is actualy a big part of Syrian debate as well, to the upmost joy of FSB, Dugin and friends...

As I keep saying, I refuse to read every single post out there, as I don't intend to spend as much time here, so in case you believe some thread has seriously gone OT and some posts are nothing but provocations and derailing, use the report button. If it's the Macedonian-Greek issue I have honestly not read a single post of it since that thread was created. If it's the above OT post, feel free to report it, I don't edit stuff where I'm involved in a debate, actualy trying to stay impartial, other mods the same, but I'm sure someone will take a look at it.

[ngoclinhtran]

I think that the only solution is to bring peace in Syria

[MZT Skopje]

Because Hungary,Slovakia,and the rest including you,refuse to put immigrants inside the country,Greece is the one to blame?Do you even have any idea of how many and when I say many,I mean MANY immigrants and refugees Greece has received?From all over the Balkans,to Asia,Africa and Middle East.Regarding our population the number is huge.Better think about it again,before judging Greece for the immigration problem.Sorry for OT.

First of all we have no money to help immigrants and you know it so why do you even mention us... Only west have the economic resources to help...

Macedonian aint any destenations immigrants are looking for it is the west who is the target.... They only want to make it through Macedonia.

But since Hungary, Serbia closed the border we do not have any choice other than closing the border with Greece.

Even the west is closing. So what are you doing in Greece ? since when did your heart get bigger ???? or is it to mess with us ???. Thats why we closed the border so good luck.....