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Thread: Migrants in Europe

  1. #21
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    Thanks Levenspiel, to a large degree agree on the topic, while I have to add that the world is trully lucky, without realising it, that Slovenia doesn't have some bigger geopolitical weight out there you'd be astonished by the enormous brain capacities of or foreign affairs minister, I'm pretty sure of it. And lack of geopolitical weight is the only reason we are spared from such actions and criticism.


    MZT Skopje, I haven't paid much attention to that situation, however stopped paying attention to whole balkan media and their versions as it's basicaly just a partisanship, apart from basketball I ussualy go there for some good laughs now and than, even limited reading Slovenian media to the upmost possible. However how the wars actualy start has alway been a fascination and a horror at the same time to me and I've gone a long way in my youth trying to grasp it all, how exactly do those wars start. I've never come to a reasonable conclusions that could be grasped within one sentence solutions. Iraq and Syria included.

    You see, I actualy do love US media. Here are the reasons why. I get to read far-left, far-right, left, right, neutral, smart, dumb, expert, amateur, emotional, rational, apologetic, confesional... just about any point of view I'd like to hear, am interested in and I get to pick the stuff I read freely, even if there is no safe place from some histerias lately. Hell, as far as I am concerned some of those might actualy be "oil-lobby related" news and their agenda might slip against my firewall, but there is such a quantity of those, they will rarely manage to impose an oneminded view unless I let them to. Interestingly enough the US Oil interest is big, however don't resent me for my scepticism when being told about US oil interests from RT or Al-Jazeera, for example

    If you prefer allignment to Russia, feel free to do so. I, 1/16th of a Russian (even if that's not really some big deal), actually been Russophile for my whole life, would on the other hand prefer choosing not to, as history of their leaders could by my opinion use some significantly duller people in charge out there and I'd prefer to wait untill Russia gets a collection of those, even if those will deprive me for some really good documentary films later on.


    Democracy? The best reason against democracy is a conversation with an average voter (Churchill), I forgot who said that the Democracy is flawed at so many levels, yet do tell of a better solution. And even if democracy is sometimes portrayed as 2 wolfes and a sheep voting for what they're supposed to eat for a dinner, I kind of prefer the sheep getting to vote even if that might not help all that much
    If you dislike it, the beauty of democracy is that you're free to do so. I'm not going to try to dissuade you, do as you wish. Untill someone is trying to take that away from me, I've got no troubles whatsoever on how other people prefer to live.

    Changing/supporting goverment in South Korea worked great for example, some others didn't. No news. US playing a world cop and choosing a democracy can go one without the other. I have never been in favour of armed interventions abroad, unless absolutely neccesary. However I also believe that's the only tool to keep the world in order and am sure a whole lot of country leaders would prefer to have US play as a world cop actualy, the recents Obama's shift in foreign policies certanly gives some clues about that, if you're willing to google criticisms on those.

    People won't aknowledge it though that US lack of intervention is largey what's fueling the Syrian war out there! People believed that as soon as US stopped interfering with those poor countries there would be peace... only to realise that a whole bunch of other countries got in that game when they realised they can pursue their interest without facing against US. And here we go, welcome to 21st century geopolitics. Just as many reknowned individuals predicted it would happen.
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 09-20-2015 at 04:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  2. #22
    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Did read a book by Churchill not long ago, at least I agree when he say that history is changed every 50th year or so not to serve the past but to serve what is today. Greece is best exampel. Macedonian sun with blue color hehe even small kids know is false. Even small kid know that Aleksandar noor Filip who murdered 50% of the athenians could not stand Atenians, he would jump out of his grave if he knew that athenians 1 milon of them moved to Thesalonika 1913.

    Media in america are free, com on mate you know is not true. Only media that is free in USA are small one who no one care about. CNN, etc, all are owned by huge companys that rule USA, why did you think they bought every big media in USA ??? OIL companys also own.

    Did it so no one will get real information why USA moved to Iraq, etc. Did it to make sure that no one will ever know that they help Albanians cuz of money they get from narkotics, black budget money.

    They even told very open 1986, we lost Vietnam war cuz of our media at home, media who changed opinion among people. We will never again lose controle of our media. Aint that scary.
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  3. #23
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    Vietnam war is one of my favourite reads. The list of reasons why US lost that:
    -failed strategy that didn't comply with the political goals (political goals = eliminate Vietkong; military goal = ussualy nothing more than bodycount)
    -that military strategy was deprimental to the soldiers morale (win the "burger hill" with big casualties just to leave it unguarded 2 days later and repeat all over at the next site)
    -US military believed they're the ones picking the fights, yet later reports aknowledged Vietkong only confronted them in a battle when and where they wanted to in 75% cases
    -they have fought for a corrupt South Vietnamese regime
    -the inteligence was cherry-picked to serve political interest (simmilar as prior to Iraq under Bush and right now regarding ISIS under Obama: hot topic)
    -military inteligence was falsified to a large degree as conscripts prefered laying down somewhere and falsifying the report to actual recon operations
    -conscripts didn't match the morale of their Vietkong counterparts, which led to development of a professional army after the war
    = all those reasons couldn't be circumvented even with full cooperation with the media, some of those actualy had a big role in media turning them against the war, along with such novelties such as a war-reporters being on the battlefields for the first time, while the media did play a role and especialy prevented US to support the South again 3 years after the armstice was signed and Vietkong struck again.
    If someone says to me that US will want to control the media because they've lost the Vietnam was due to it, accordingly with the above points, don't resent me for being sceptical about that.
    Afterall... didn't they just retreat from Iraq due to media pressure evolving into political decisions, while numerous generals were quite vocal about the need to stay there in a limited but battle capable number, just a few years ago? if they're controlling the media, americans must trully be incompetent to fail at that!? I mean, look at "all the oil money they're loosing in Iraq as of now"...

    The answer is, with the media under control as in some other countries, US wouldn't almost completely leave Iraq and with the US oil companies driving their foreign policies, they sure as hell wouldn't let ISIS disrupt their financial earns. Not to mention with the current situation in US oil industry, with those dropping prices, I'm sure as hell they wouldn't be standing still about it and should bomb the hell out of everyone to make those prices rise again, by that conspiracy theory logic. Somehow, doesn't add up.

    (I could go on and on with the not that distant urges to save the US automoto industry that go unheard for all these years, it's kind of weird the US goverment doesn't do so considering they are run by oil industry...)


    Just as I've mentioned "chery picking" the inteligence. I am most definately sure that you share this feeling, in ex-Yugoslavia we would never ever ever in some crazy dreams have someone claiming political establishing is re-writting the inteligence reports to suit their political agenda, now wouldn't we? Hell, most of ex-Yu citizens even nowadays don't know Yugoslavia actualy bankrupted in 1983, because noone ever dared mentioning it That's a sign of a free press and when I see a self-criticism in the media, they gain my trust. US media might be influenced with oil industry to some extent, but most of people I talk to ussualy quote either RT or Al Jazeera in the very next sentence. That makes it kind of simmilar with US role in Syria: I'm sure they've made mistakes, but blaming US for what's happening in Syria right now is simmilar as saying US media is controlled by Oil dependant companies and offering the two companies I've mentioned above as an alternative source of information. Doesn't add up a bit

    And quite a noticable share of conspiracy theories fail at such or at simmilar levels, if you'll pay attention to it. US being run by some multicoorporations is one of them. US annual GDP is 16.770 billion $. Forbes top400, list of the richest 400 americans evaluates their wealth (wealth and GDP are a different matter though) at 2.000 billion $.
    I'm sure you can guess which country actualy has a 110 individuals controlling 35% of the whole economy, most of those individuals were actually pretty much poor in 1990. In comparison a big portion of those 400 US billionaires either took a lot longer to build that or invented some of the stuff you're probably using daily? That proportions lead to the highest inequality indexes in that regard out there, with the exception of some Carribean states with their resident billionaire tax policies?
    It's the country you say EU should be alligning to, since US is corrupted and run by a handfull of oligarchs... and oil companies... gas ones probably as well.


    And in my opinion history is rarely changed, but most often oversimplified so the kids can learn some of it in school without having to make a PhD out of it. When the history gets "changed" there was probably someone at some point teaching you the history with his agenda.
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 09-20-2015 at 07:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by MZT Skopje View Post
    Did read a book by Churchill not long ago, at least I agree when he say that history is changed every 50th year or so not to serve the past but to serve what is today. Greece is best exampel. Macedonian sun with blue color hehe even small kids know is false. Even small kid know that Aleksandar noor Filip who murdered 50% of the athenians could not stand Atenians, he would jump out of his grave if he knew that athenians 1 milon of them moved to Thesalonika 1913.
    How does this concern this topic?
    And i would hate to point out that since Josko, who is well acquainted with this issue expanding to multiple topics, posted right after you, a little favoritism is undeniably being exhibited.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NESTOR View Post
    How does this concern this topic?
    And i would hate to point out that since Josko, who is well acquainted with this issue expanding to multiple topics, posted right after you, a little favoritism is undeniably being exhibited.
    Great, we've come to a point when a guy with 88 posts will preach on favoritism on the topic based on his lack of knowledge about how much Macedonians and Slovenians actualy have in common. One of my best friends is half macedonian, too bad I didn't remember that whenever banning any of the Macedonian guys here.

    If you'll pay a little more attention, you'll realise this sub-forum is rarely moderated unless things go really to far, I don't remember one single occurance of any post being edited here for OT. But if you're disturbed by that fact, report the post, I'm sure we can work something out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  6. #26

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    Good thing that the validity and the essence of my posts is associated with the number of them...I' ll be sure to post more in order to attain credibility. As for the rest, i can't understand what the relationship of Slovenians and FYROMians has to do with anything...Good job, i guess, for overcoming your personal sympathies while moderating. This topic is entitled "Migrants in Europe" and a FYROMian oh-so-innocently gives an example of falsity by evoking the "macedonian sun with blue color" and "Filip killing 50% of Athenians" as arguments that "even small kids know is false". I guess that it would be equally permissible for me to explain how untrue the belief that Greece plays good p'n'r by giving an example of how false "the red and yellow macedonian sun" is, as even "small kids know this".

    I believe you should be strict when you see a provocative or derailing post concerning a sensitive matter, let alone this particular one. If you think that the afore mentioned digression of the post of MZT was justifiable, fine. Btw, i' m not disturbed by anything, i'm just trying to abide by some formalities, in all of my 88 posts. Now 89.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    I will quote you but in GR MKD topic.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NESTOR View Post
    Good thing that the validity and the essence of my posts is associated with the number of them...I' ll be sure to post more in order to attain credibility. As for the rest, i can't understand what the relationship of Slovenians and FYROMians has to do with anything...Good job, i guess, for overcoming your personal sympathies while moderating. This topic is entitled "Migrants in Europe" and a FYROMian oh-so-innocently gives an example of falsity by evoking the "macedonian sun with blue color" and "Filip killing 50% of Athenians" as arguments that "even small kids know is false". I guess that it would be equally permissible for me to explain how untrue the belief that Greece plays good p'n'r by giving an example of how false "the red and yellow macedonian sun" is, as even "small kids know this".

    I believe you should be strict when you see a provocative or derailing post concerning a sensitive matter, let alone this particular one. If you think that the afore mentioned digression of the post of MZT was justifiable, fine. Btw, i' m not disturbed by anything, i'm just trying to abide by some formalities, in all of my 88 posts. Now 89.
    Well you might have guessed but there are times I am not all that enthusiastic about coming here, just to spend half an hour of my time just solving issues other posters create out of immaturity or pure idiotism and later get called biased by a poster with 90 posts - yeah, feel offended all you like, but as far as I am concerned you actually might be reading the forum and not posting a lot, but you could also be checking it out once per 4 months and than expect me to take your opinion about moderation of this forum seriously. You can't be for real.
    FYI I skipped the segment of the post you were most disturbed with since I failed to understand the point altogether and I am answering in a broad sense with seemingly lots of OT because the "it's US fault" for everything is actualy a big part of Syrian debate as well, to the upmost joy of FSB, Dugin and friends...

    As I keep saying, I refuse to read every single post out there, as I don't intend to spend as much time here, so in case you believe some thread has seriously gone OT and some posts are nothing but provocations and derailing, use the report button. If it's the Macedonian-Greek issue I have honestly not read a single post of it since that thread was created. If it's the above OT post, feel free to report it, I don't edit stuff where I'm involved in a debate, actualy trying to stay impartial, other mods the same, but I'm sure someone will take a look at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  9. #29

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    I think that the only solution is to bring peace in Syria
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  10. #30
    Senior Member MZT Skopje's Avatar
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    Because Hungary,Slovakia,and the rest including you,refuse to put immigrants inside the country,Greece is the one to blame?Do you even have any idea of how many and when I say many,I mean MANY immigrants and refugees Greece has received?From all over the Balkans,to Asia,Africa and Middle East.Regarding our population the number is huge.Better think about it again,before judging Greece for the immigration problem.Sorry for OT.
    First of all we have no money to help immigrants and you know it so why do you even mention us... Only west have the economic resources to help...

    Macedonian aint any destenations immigrants are looking for it is the west who is the target.... They only want to make it through Macedonia.

    But since Hungary, Serbia closed the border we do not have any choice other than closing the border with Greece.

    Even the west is closing. So what are you doing in Greece ? since when did your heart get bigger ???? or is it to mess with us ???. Thats why we closed the border so good luck.....
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  11. #31
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    Personally, i think the government should implement some programs that support other underdeveloped or developing countries to decrease the need of migration and be more strict with immigration issue: publish new law with higher requirements. I guess almost all of those people love their countries by nature, leaving for another country is just due to they can't face with domestic issue anymore.

  12. #32
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    Completely agree with you. Those people don't have another option when we speak about Syria, for example.
    Recently I wrote a short review with my thoughts on a related topic for academized. com reviews website.
    And must admit, the situation with refugees remains hopeless so far. For too long EU ignored the fact that conflict will inevitably ensue when young, poor neighboring states compare themselves to prosperous Europe.
    There are crises that cannot be only survived — and the refugee crisis is one of them.
    Last edited by Tabut1985; 04-03-2019 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Typing mistake

  13. #33
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    Migration theme like in politics principally is intertwining between human and pragmatic subject .Europe with 500 millions of people can hold out few million of migrants .Of course,probably some countries arent in situation to help ,like Moldova or Bosnia and Herzegovina ,but there no excuse for Scandinavian countries, or United Kingdom or France .

    Contries like Hungary,Poland,untill recently Italy ,who is disgraced .Not even Italy isnt give asylum,even they didnt save life of refugees which illegally come in Italy and experince accident and endangering their life .Orban with walls and wires presents civilization level few centuries ago .

    Outburst of far-right political options through Europe on the edge of fascism with phraesology ,they are keepers of culture in their country ,they are not racists just they think culturaly mixture is wrong .That is insult for my inteligence ,but isnt insult for moral of their voters .That is one of the indicator picture of World isnt so ugly due polical oligarchy,than also because of mostly people which isnt ready sacrifice minimum of their comfort to help someone .

    Interesting is level conscious of people predominantly wide Europe and World . They are victims of oligarchical capitalistic system ,but oligarchs success to manipulate and convince this people,that main problem are some refugees,which float through Mediterranean .

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