Migrants in Europe

[macleopard13]

As you've probably heard, there's a mass immigration problem in countries like Italy, England, Greece, Austria, Germany and Hungary. Migrants are coming in huge swarms from Middle Eastern countries and are trying to settle in rich European (and North American) countries. I'm just trying to see what the sentiment is among Europeans here. I'm definitely not happy about this mess, especially if the migrants will refuse to integrate, and will expect to be supported on welfare. I'd certainly be ticked off if the migrants came to Lithuania, refused to integrate and tried to change our culture or religion. I don't know how rooted is the concept of globalism in different European cultures, but Lithuania isn't on top of it. Thoughts?

[slice me nice]

Even though I understand why those people want to migrate through Europe, I don't approve what has been happening since the last three years. The migration policy against Syrian people are incredible terrible in Turkey. As you have heard, many Syrian refugees want to move Central Europe from Turkey. This is unfortunately the outcome of wrong policy of Turkish government, European Union and United Nations. When the Syrian civil war started, there were activation in Turkish-Syrian border just because of the people who had to leave their homes because of ISIS threat and other terrorist groups. At first, due to my moral values, I found okay the decision of accepting those migrants. The government built some refugee camps inside of Turkey and we placed a lot of Syrian refugees here. Everybody thought that the war should had finished around maximum three years but as you see the civil war in Syria hasn't finished yet and looks like never end until a determined action will come from United Nations. In the first wave, there were 250.000 Syrian refugees in Turkey who have place to stay in refugee camps but day by day these number has been increasing. Now according to official statements, there are almost 2 million Arabian refugees in Turkey and they are keeping to come here every day. Turkish-Syrian border is joke right now.

Since we have 2 million refugees, it is hard to keep them in camps. They are in every city of Turkey right now and the situation is terrible. They are homeless and the anger towards this refugees is increasing. Even in holiday villages there are lots of refugees which decreases the popularity of Turkey as a tourism country. Since we can't keep them in order, the crime rate has increased rapidly here. People are completely against of these people. They are working like slaves in order to find some money. I know some Syrians who work 15 hours in a day without social insurance and get minimum money. There is a social tragedy in Turkey. Though I understand these people's situations, their behaviors against us are terrible us. Once, they tried to haul down the Turkish flag in refugee camp just because they didn't like ''foods'' and ''pillows''. That's quite funny. Those behaviors trigger to hatred toward refugees. The government doesn't take any action. People seriously worry about this situation. The worse is thing is that having 2 million people who don't contribute anything to economy, is a big imposition for us. They even spread some illness here that we haven't encountered. You know, it is hard to control these people. We get interaction with them every day and we can't know these people's real face. Since we have been trying to get rid of radical thoughts in Turkey, having 2 million people with Arabian culture, damage the society.

I am not against of refugees however when you can't control them, they ''bite'' you. I do understand your concern. In order to avoid from this situation, we should establish a buffer zone in Syria. Otherwise things will go worse. In buffer zone, we can build camps and those people can continue to live in their own country. Every kind of economical help should be provided by EU because this is not the concern of just Turkey but EU. Today, the Turkish parliament will vote Syrian compass which can be considered as the first step of establish buffer zone. Even though this is not our war, unfortunately Turkish army will involve in the situation where there is no other option since everybody hides somewhere else.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

I'm extremely conflicted.
At the very least there is no way refugees from war torn areas should be left for themselves, but I'm not at all fond of extreme-left media calling every division between refugees and migrants, or the need of security clearance and movement restrictions or quota's as a homophobia. The term looses it's meaning for people that actualy are homophobes and with this crisis it looks like they're not as few as I first thought. In fact I consider that sticker used for anyone with reservations as a extremely short sighted psychological manipulation where people don't consider themselves good persons due to their good deeds anymore, but by their "good and righteous" beliefs instead. Believing all migrants and refugees should come to europe doesn't make you a good person, helping ONE SINGLE out of them, does! And I'm not talking those 10 € to give away to clear the conscience. That's the part that got way too many people confused lately.

Some european countries have their share of responsibilities as far as Arab spring, it's consequences and ISIS is concerned (Lybia!? yup, let's just put the head back in the sand), ignoring the refugee question Turkey and Lebanon have to put up with and now it has spilled over (Slice Me Nice - good read, have been reading extensively on the matter but didn't come up with one article about a problem in Turkey, just shows how we europeans love to keep our heads in the sand untill the topic becomes popular). Extreme right parties through europe are to a large degree financed by Putin, that is a mass supporter of Assad, extreme right loosing all credibility regarding any of their potential "solutions" accordingly and extreme left was naively encouraging the arab spring and demanded for US army to get out of Iraq (wasn't a fan of them invading, although it's far from simple, but ffs getting out of there than shouldn't be just a matter of sucking up to voters) and is failing some common sense by some supposed dogma's.
US foreign affairs is letting the embargo on the Iran which Turkey and Saudi Arabia will of course "love" , great timing, I don't think anyone is actualy sure what exactly could that mean for stability in Iraq, Syria and through Arab countries, Russia doesn't wan't Assad to fail, which will inevitably prolongue the war in Syria, Lebanon is rioting atm due to some at first sight not as dangerous stuff, but whoever is deeply interested in history knows how little it takes for things to spil over and on top of it all, with already really messed situations there's a branch of people that just can't live without the crazy conspiracy theories out there that will confuse even more people that don't want to put their time into it. So they'll pursue their ussual sionist, NWO, vatican, US, mean capitalist, chemtrails agenda.

I already had a nervous breakdown on the arab spring topic on this forum, when Slavoj freaking Žižek (one of greatest modern thinkers my ass) was quoted and it seems now that I actualy got it right 5 years ago. Sadly. People in europe had no freaking idea what they're cheering for. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely against any kind of authoritarian regime especialy given my country's past, but consider those neccesary to keep peace at some points and circumstances and prefer evolution to democracy instead of the street taking over without the common consensus (if that's even possible in some ethnicaly diverse countries those are rapidly forced into ethnic arguements). When there is a consensus and people know what they're fighting for, those regimes will collapse like a house of cards. Increase trade, decrease trade limitations, encourage student exchange and finance the non-radicals and trully independent media, that's the way to succesfully crush the authoritarian regimes, not by supporting moraly or financialy the first uprise that comes along (thank you al-jazeera among others), when protesters alone aren't exactly sure and unified what they stand for and some lunatic profesors from Europe suddenly imagening they somehow understand it perfectly instead?!
Untill than, angry mob becoming somewhat of a role model, causing their neighbours to uprise as well isn't going to make anything for the better. Now the differences by Tunisia when it all started iirc and some other uprises are damn visible, dissapointing for sure, but to a large degree predictable, sadly. Let alone the costs of that dissent if all things combined develop into a prolongued civil war as it happened in Syria. That's how I saw that large support for the arab spring movement back than, hoped to be wrong but not surprised to be right.


There is a difference between families running from war, people running due to their beliefs and migrants due to economic reasons.
During the war in Bosnia about 70.000 refugees came to Slovenia, representing aprox. 3% of inhabitants back than, mostly muslim Bosniaks. In my class we got two of them, Amir and Edna. Amir is one of the nicest guys out there, finished school, college, created family, works in Slovenia and got citizenship. Edna was constantly crying, couldn't socialize, didn't understand it back than, few years later her cousin explained what she has been through, some serious shit. As far as the refugees go, I always remember both of them and consider an asylum the only proper way to go. If some right-wing nutcrack insists to deport Amir now due to at one point being a refugee, I wouldn't have many reservations beating the man up. But this utter all immigrants accepted, liberal agenda is just as primitive and only helps the rise of the extreme right-wing parties which I don't expect much good from. I don't think we need the immigrants and refugees in europe to create problems for us, as we're obviously completely capable of creating and multiplying those by ourself in the name of our ideologies.

[INTEGRAL]

Yes please Syrians go to Germany, Sweden, England, France instead of Turkey. I don't want to see a Syrian begging for money on the streets anymore in Istanbul.

[CoachZ]

Serbia in general has been the most receptive country to refugees/migrants (or whatever people want to call them) in the region. We have went through 3 waves of refugees in the recent past (we got 300-400k from Croatia, as much from Bosnia a little bit later, then came Kosovo conflict and another wave) and as a country we have learned how to live with them. Sure a lot of them are still far from very well off and there is an advantage in terms that they speak the same language, and have similar customs, religion etc. Still that does not change the face of human tragedy.

People have in general been very generous in donating to them, getting them food and shelter and making them feel welcome. Most of them are quite grateful, even though they can see that Serbia is very far from being well off. Maybe the tension is not there since they do not see Serbia as their final destination, but rather as a transit to the west but still they appreciate being treated humanely. No cops bothering them, no detainment, no public shaming be people living in the cities they are in now etc. Sure there was a slight spike in crime but not on their side, rather criminals in Serbia trying to take advantage of those people and rob them. But that we have seen with previous waves as well.

In general, it seems to be true that those who have less are more willing to share and lend a helping hand cause they understand the suffering. I think it's an absolute disgrace how well off countries are treating those people. You can call it immigration policy-control, planned exodus and asylum etc. I don't care what they name it, the bottom line is that in these cases you need to help first, and ask questions and solve problems and causes later.

[macleopard13]

In general, it seems to be true that those who have less are more willing to share and lend a helping hand cause they understand the suffering. I think it's an absolute disgrace how well off countries are treating those people. You can call it immigration policy-control, planned exodus and asylum etc. I don't care what they name it, the bottom line is that in these cases you need to help first, and ask questions and solve problems and causes later.

However, there's a free-rider problem associated with that solution; if you help people too much, they'll expect that help later and instead of bettering their situation, will expect someone else to help them out. That's what's happening with Latinos coming to the states illegally; many of the aliens are put on welfare and cost a lot of tax dollars for the average, middle and upper class American. What's more, some refuse to integrate into the mainstream culture. I know that in America it's okay, because we're "a nation of immigrants," but in Europe, where each nation has its own unique history, traditions and language, that is unacceptable. If you live in another country, you MUST follow the customs of that country, in my opinion, and the government should encourage that behavior by not allowing groups that refuse to integrate to move up the economic ladder. I think that's what European countries fear the most about these migrants, that they'll flood them, live off of welfare and refuse to integrate into the mainstream society. Those fears, in my opinion, are not unreasonable.

In general, I don't understand the left-wing politicians' "globalist" perspective that we're all humans and that it's okay to disintegrate borders and mix cultures. What happens to our individuality, our identity, once we're all similar, once we become a bland mix of different nationalities? I understand that we're all human, but why can't we retain our culture, our uniqueness? I think that the pervasiveness of globalist perspective is also a contributing factor to this mess. If each country set up strict rules for migrants regarding mandatory integration to the host society, we wouldn't have problems such as Muslims refusing to integrate in Britain or France.

[MZT Skopje]

About 5.000 cross Macedonia every day (Mostly form Syria) with a hope for a better life in the west. Rute to wets is GR-MKD-SRB-HUN-WEST. Or TUR-BUL-HUN-WEST.

Very ugly picture make the news from tyime to time. Macedonia plans to build a big wall. Not to stop them just to controle the situation our train and buss capacity aint that large, 1000 a days is the plan.

Greeks do not much to help so the wall is a most.

[Khalid80]

About 5.000 cross Macedonia every day (Mostly form Syria) with a hope for a better life in the west. Rute to wets is GR-MKD-SRB-HUN-WEST. Or TUR-BUL-HUN-WEST.

Very ugly picture make the news from tyime to time. Macedonia plans to build a big wall. Not to stop them just to controle the situation our train and buss capacity aint that large, 1000 a days is the plan.

Greeks do not much to help so the wall is a most.

I remember reading recently that Syrian refugees are so desperate to reach Western Europe that they're even going through the Arctic circle route through Russia and across to Norway.

Here's an article about this that I found

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/29/syrian-refugees-europe-arctic-circle-russia-norway

As with regards to their living conditions in both Greece and Lebanon since I got to witness it in person I must say that their living conditions are quite dismal... It's sad to see them going through this and I hope a drastic solution can be found really soon

[MZT Skopje]

Personaly I think that the only solution is to bring peace in Syria and the only way to do that is force west to be more active both diplomatic and with force. I can not see any other way. When I see all this humans kidds, old person, cross Macedonia, this is a disaster similar the one during second WW.

[Joško Poljak Fan]

Peace in Syria?
With Assad winning expect reprecussions against majority of Syrian population and whichever country will support him will be held moraly responsible
ISIS winning is out of the question
The rebel coalition will very likely get into a new civil war for power as soon as they'd get close to victory, they're fighting for such different ideals I don't think they'll make it without that, the result will mostlikely be an Islamic republic and once again, any country military supporting it will be held accountable for all the sh*t that'll happen in that case.

I don't see an obvious solution military wise and refuse to see my buddies being sent there and risk their lives to fight for something most natives don't consider worth fighting for, just to be later on welcomed home worse than some pieces of sh*t in service of the imperial forces, the cause of all bad that'll going on there, blah blah blah typical far-leftist agenda that will inevitably be promoted through too many chanels. It's a lose-lose situation to get involved there.
This is a showcase how not getting involved in a military conflict can be just as harmfull as getting involved in one, however I don't have any belief that lesson won't be forgotten on the very next occasion out there...

[Defke]

Syrian war is such a complicated mess my brain hurts when I read about it. Theres like a hundred of factions there...

I work near a park in Belgrade which now serves as a refugee camp now and their main transit point. For the last four months I haven't experienced anything negative with them, and can only praise them for staying calm and dignified through their suffering. One thing I noted though that not all are from Syria. There are many speaking some turkic languages, as far as my non-expert ear can understand. It seems to me that Syrian wave picked up many more people on their way.

[MZT Skopje]

Unfortunately many people aint from Syria, poeple who just seek better economy life in the west. But this people should be sent back immediately. I know that a lot of Albanians tray to make the west by using this Syrian wave but they are also very fast sent back. Since Albania and Kosovo are no war zone.

[MZT Skopje]

Peace in Syria?
With Assad winning expect reprecussions against majority of Syrian population and whichever country will support him will be held moraly responsible
ISIS winning is out of the question
The rebel coalition will very likely get into a new civil war for power as soon as they'd get close to victory, they're fighting for such different ideals I don't think they'll make it without that, the result will mostlikely be an Islamic republic and once again, any country military supporting it will be held accountable for all the sh*t that'll happen in that case.

I don't see an obvious solution military wise and refuse to see my buddies being sent there and risk their lives to fight for something most natives don't consider worth fighting for, just to be later on welcomed home worse than some pieces of sh*t in service of the imperial forces, the cause of all bad that'll going on there, blah blah blah typical far-leftist agenda that will inevitably be promoted through too many chanels. It's a lose-lose situation to get involved there.
This is a showcase how not getting involved in a military conflict can be just as harmfull as getting involved in one, however I don't have any belief that lesson won't be forgotten on the very next occasion out there...

This is all American fault and now europe has to pay the prize for licking the American ass. America is the one who are
responsible, they made the talibans, al kejda and IS. They made Saudia Arabia into a fundamentalist state, they give them oil and gett american protection. And europe is the one who pay the prize with refugees.

Is time for europe to end the joke relationship with america and look at Russia insteed. Russia is europe anyway.

[turk-jugoslav]

At the moment, Turkey's home to 2.2 millions Syrian refugees, according to officials. Real number must be about 2.8 millions with unregistered ones. With other refugees, especially from Iraq, the official number increases to 3 milions, which makes us the home to biggest number of refugees in the world. It's very usual to see Syrians going around in the İstanbul streets. In some parts of Istanbul, they are becoming majority and very hard to hear Turkish words
Like my parents did in the past, coming to Turkey as an immigrant, Turkey never said ''no'' to guests. The great state tradition, that's why I love this country despite so many negative things. Arab countries except Lebanon just watching...

Syrian war is such a complicated mess my brain hurts when I read about it. Theres like a hundred of factions there...

I work near a park in Belgrade which now serves as a refugee camp now and their main transit point. For the last four months I haven't experienced anything negative with them, and can only praise them for staying calm and dignified through their suffering. One thing I noted though that not all are from Syria. There are many speaking some turkic languages, as far as my non-expert ear can understand. It seems to me that Syrian wave picked up many more people on their way.

Turkic speakers must be from Syria or Afghanstan. Approx., there are 1 million Syrian who have Turkish ethnicity and the most of them took shelter in Turkey. I saw one of them in the local tv when I was in Adana, where is located southern part of Turkey, whose name is Cuma Türkmen and allegedly 2.28 m tall . Other Turkic speakers must be ethic Uzbeks from Afghanistan. I don't think there are so many Syrian-Turkmens in Europe because they are easily being adopted in Turkey as Turkish speakers, one of them is my friends and earn 700 dollars per a month which is good money in Turkey. Of course, I know so many suffer from poverty but it's easier to adopt Turkey than ethnic Arabs.

The solution is peace in Syria. Destroying Assad and radical islamists could bring the peace to Syria but seems like Western States don't care about it.

[Defke]

I think there are radical islamists fighting on all three sides (Assad, opposition and of course ISIS). In fact, Assad mght be leaning in that direction the least. That's why the war goes on so long and why is it so hard to find a solution. There are no clear good and bad guys ( ok, ISIS are clear bad guys), just three factions composed of many loosely connected smaller factions.

And yeah, lots of turkic speaking ones look like Uzbeks (mongol like, as far as I remember from the documentaries that's how the Uzbeks look like).