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Thread: Player naturalisations

  1. #41

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    You are misinformed.

    Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.

    As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.

  2. #42
    Senior Member BiHBasket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auris1 View Post
    More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
    Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
    Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
    Croatia - 3.
    France -1
    GB -3
    Greece- 1
    Israel -4
    Italy-1
    Lithuania -2
    Russia-1
    Serbia -2
    Slovenia-1
    Spain-1
    One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
    So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
    How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination
    Those three players are:

    Lakić is born in Serbia just because his Bosnian hometown is close to Serbian border and they had better hospital than his hometown. Same situation with Milanović, just his hometown is near Montenegro border. So they were just born there and immediately came back. As for Polutak, his family moved to Swiss from Bosnia as war refugees, so that's why he was born there.

    So none of them is naturalized There are a lot of Bosnians in other national teams(especially Slovenia), but as for me they are not Bosnians anymore anyway, just a bunch of pathetic traitors

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    You are misinformed.

    Eetu Selänne has not played for Finland in any IIHF-sanctionned tournament, only in an u-18 friendly tournament to which IIHF rules do not apply.
    And everything I stated still stands.

    As for the Korean players, all of them have played two years in the Korean league prior to being selected to the NT, see http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=13507 or http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=11107 for example, so their case is different from McCalebb's.
    Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upi View Post
    And everything I stated still stands.
    No, you stated that Eetu petitioned to the IIHF and the IIHF granted him the right to play for Finland. The IIHF did not grant him that right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Upi View Post
    Still does not change the fact that they got fast tracked naturalizations only in order to play ice hockey for S.Korea and it looks like IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalized players.
    The IIHF does not put any limit on the number of naturalizations, you got that part correct.

    However, you said the Korean players' case was similar to that of McCalebb's, and that therefore McCalebb would have been allowed by the IIHF as well.

    That is obviously incorrect: McCalebb did not play the two seasons in Macedonia that are mandatory according to IIHF rules, and would therefore be deemed ineligible for that country's national team, as is every hockey player in the same situation.

  5. #45
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storžievis View Post
    But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

    All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.
    I am personally not sure if FIBA wants to avoid McCalebb-like cases. They've seemed to encourage it actually. Maybe to help boosting the level of bball in those counties.

    In women competitions especially, almost all (maybe all?) NTs, even the best bball countries, add an American WNBA player in their roster, and it's like a norm now. it's actually ridiculous, just like the old days when we had "club" teams with 1 American.
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  6. #46
    Efes fan Levenspiel's Avatar
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    Bball nations and bball community in general are fine with ethnic-based justifications for now, and to me it has also been the case (Koufos, Calathes, Sabonis, etc). I actually never considered Sabonis case, as it would be no-brainer.

    At least in football, Turkey benefited hugely from Europe-born Turkish players, and we were upset for a while because Mesut Ozil, Hakan Yakin, Gokhan Inler, etc did not choose Turkish NT. It felt like they should have, even if they did not grow up.

    But, I see boz74's point. Maybe not to that extend to prevent Sabonis's eligibility, but there should be a more strict limit. 2-years time in domestic league it could be or FIBA can limit the depth of ethic-ties (max 1 generation deep, maybe?). Otherwise, we will all start complaining when German, England, Ireland, etc NT's start bringing NBA stars and suddenly become bball powerhouses . It's theoretically possible (and could be justified in the same logic).
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  7. #47
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    The question really becomes, what is being evaluated in international sporting competition? Is it the ability of a certain ethnic group or a particular country's citizens? Or is it a country's sporting culture and the expertise/resources to develop young athletes to play a certain sport? Different governing bodies of particular sports place differing emphasis on these various factors.

    Culture clearly influences people in these matters. People from more ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries tend to identify along those lines and have no issues welcoming members of their diaspora who've learned the game abroad. People from more ethnically/culturally diverse countries are less influenced by such matters. Neither side is "wrong", but the emphasis on ethnicity/culture does have an issue in my eyes.

    If a country with no heritage in a particular sport either "imports" players from, or sends a large amount of young citizens to, a country that's world renown for developing players in that sport, then becomes a world power without any domestic ability to develop those players, is there much to be proud of? Conversely, if that country works hard on their own to develop the methods to create those players, wouldn't it be that much more satisfying and prove that much more about that country if they could find success?

    Of course, most sports were historically created in one country and at some point, for the game to grow, require the influence of that country on others to foment interest/enthusiasm for the sport. Success is the best way to breed interest/enthusiasm in any given country for a sport, so if at some point, using players that were not developed domestically leads to the growth of the game in that country, the ends might justify the means.

    It's not an entirely clear issue but, given the passage of time since many of the worlds popular sports were created, I think the emphasis really needs to move towards development over ethnicity/culture. I don't expect there will ever be an entirely "pure" system in this heavily globalized world but it raises the value of the competition in any given sport to continue working towards such a system. At the very least, I think it makes perfect sense for an athlete to spend some amount of time in the country they wish to represent before they're eligible to do so.

  8. #48
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiHBasket View Post
    Those three players are:

    Lakić is born in Serbia just because his Bosnian hometown is close to Serbian border and they had better hospital than his hometown. Same situation with Milanović, just his hometown is near Montenegro border. So they were just born there and immediately came back. As for Polutak, his family moved to Swiss from Bosnia as war refugees, so that's why he was born there.

    So none of them is naturalized There are a lot of Bosnians in other national teams(especially Slovenia), but as for me they are not Bosnians anymore anyway, just a bunch of pathetic traitors
    Look, I was just pointing to the fact that some players were born away from the country they represent . No big deal,right?
    But I am kind of thrown back with you calling some people pathetic traitors just because they chose to represent different country . There' is such a term as freedom of choice and you have to respect that whether you like or not.

  9. #49
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    I don,t like the current situation with Anton Gavel. Fuc..ing dangerous precedent could be once again. He played for Slovak NT in FIBA EuroBasket 2007,2009,2011 division B and also played for Slovak NT at the FIBA EuroBasket 2013 qualification tournament. He played in 4(!!!!!!!!!!!) OFFICIAL FIBA tournaments for his native NT and now this clown hopes to play at Eurobasket with German NT! He has german passport since 2012. He said "I,ve played in the past for my native country but now i would like to play for Germany, the country that become a second home for me"..... IMHO, there are no words to express how sad this is. If eventually FIBA europe will allow him to play for German NT, it will be complete collapse of the entire FIBA Europe system.... Yes, we know precedents with Evtimov,Preldzic, but still..... What a shame actually.......

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by vaslover View Post
    I don,t like the current situation with Anton Gavel. Fuc..ing dangerous precedent could be once again. He played for Slovak NT in FIBA EuroBasket 2007,2009,2011 division B and also played for Slovak NT at the FIBA EuroBasket 2013 qualification tournament. He played in 4(!!!!!!!!!!!) OFFICIAL FIBA tournaments for his native NT and now this clown hopes to play at Eurobasket with German NT! He has german passport since 2012. He said "I,ve played in the past for my native country but now i would like to play for Germany, the country that become a second home for me"..... IMHO, there are no words to express how sad this is. If eventually FIBA europe will allow him to play for German NT, it will be complete collapse of the entire FIBA Europe system.... Yes, we know precedents with Evtimov,Preldzic, but still..... What a shame actually.......
    I think Gavel stands no chance of playing for Germany. We have a similar situation here with Sasha Vezenkov. Both his parents are Bulgarian, but he grew up in Cyprus and Greece, he spent his hole career with Aris, and he only speaks Greek. Nevertheless, he chose to represent Bulgaria, and he even played with them in major official tournaments, including the senior NT (although he's just 19). Should he be eligible for Greece, too? By some fans' logic, here, he shouldn't even be eligible for Bulgaria. By the way, he has signed for Barcelona for next season.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Svoura View Post
    I think Gavel stands no chance of playing for Germany. We have a similar situation here with Sasha Vezenkov. Both his parents are Bulgarian, but he grew up in Cyprus and Greece, he spent his hole career with Aris, and he only speaks Greek. Nevertheless, he chose to represent Bulgaria, and he even played with them in major official tournaments, including the senior NT (although he's just 19). Should he be eligible for Greece, too? By some fans' logic, here, he shouldn't even be eligible for Bulgaria. By the way, he has signed for Barcelona for next season.
    That's exactly what came my mind as well. I once listened to an interview by Vezenkov, and he sounded like he really wanted to represent Bulgaria, even if he has not lived over there as you mentioned. I think we should also respect that.

    in additon to vaslover's examples, Ermal Kuqo also have represented two different NTs; Turkish and Albanian.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cagney View Post
    The question really becomes, what is being evaluated in international sporting competition? Is it the ability of a certain ethnic group or a particular country's citizens? Or is it a country's sporting culture and the expertise/resources to develop young athletes to play a certain sport? Different governing bodies of particular sports place differing emphasis on these various factors.

    Culture clearly influences people in these matters. People from more ethnically/culturally homogeneous countries tend to identify along those lines and have no issues welcoming members of their diaspora who've learned the game abroad. People from more ethnically/culturally diverse countries are less influenced by such matters. Neither side is "wrong", but the emphasis on ethnicity/culture does have an issue in my eyes.

    If a country with no heritage in a particular sport either "imports" players from, or sends a large amount of young citizens to, a country that's world renown for developing players in that sport, then becomes a world power without any domestic ability to develop those players, is there much to be proud of? Conversely, if that country works hard on their own to develop the methods to create those players, wouldn't it be that much more satisfying and prove that much more about that country if they could find success?

    Of course, most sports were historically created in one country and at some point, for the game to grow, require the influence of that country on others to foment interest/enthusiasm for the sport. Success is the best way to breed interest/enthusiasm in any given country for a sport, so if at some point, using players that were not developed domestically leads to the growth of the game in that country, the ends might justify the means.

    It's not an entirely clear issue but, given the passage of time since many of the worlds popular sports were created, I think the emphasis really needs to move towards development over ethnicity/culture. I don't expect there will ever be an entirely "pure" system in this heavily globalized world but it raises the value of the competition in any given sport to continue working towards such a system. At the very least, I think it makes perfect sense for an athlete to spend some amount of time in the country they wish to represent before they're eligible to do so.
    Very good questions.

    I think things are a bit ethnic/culture oriented in Europe, as most nations still consider the sports competitions as modern versions of field battles. At least in Eastern Europe, particularly in Balkans. Any game between politically conflicting nations is usually very intense, and for many people this is what makes Euro competitions special; that is more emotional for players and the spectators.

    When looked from this ("primitive") perspective, in a war, Cedi Osman for example (Turkish kid born in Macedonia) is supposedly gonna fight harder for Turkey than he would for the FYROM, or he'd sacrifice more for Turkey than Preldzic would. Same things could be said for Koufos vs Vezenkov maybe, but I don't really know that.

    This are all assumptions, of course, but I think this is how "most" people see the sports in Balkans.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    Very good questions.

    I think things are a bit ethnic/culture oriented in Europe, as most nations still consider the sports competitions as modern versions of field battles. At least in Eastern Europe, particularly in Balkans. Any game between politically conflicting nations is usually very intense, and for many people this is what makes Euro competitions special; that is more emotional for players and the spectators.

    When looked from this ("primitive") perspective, in a war, Cedi Osman for example (Turkish kid born in Macedonia) is supposedly gonna fight harder for Turkey than he would for the FYROM, or he'd sacrifice more for Turkey than Preldzic would. Same things could be said for Koufos vs Vezenkov maybe, but I don't really know that.

    This are all assumptions, of course, but I think this is how "most" people see the sports in Balkans.
    It is not exclusively about desire, bigger basketball nations offer players better perspectives for their future. This clouds players judgement. Vezenkov may be an exception. But I am not sure how passionate he is for representing Bulgaria rather than Greece. I don't think he ever had that option. He was never invited to play for Greece. He was born in Cyprus from ethnic Bulgarian parents. So for Greece he is thus a recent immigrant without Greek roots, which means that he has to choose to represent either Cyprus or Bulgaria. And he went for Bulgaria. If he would have been born and raised in Greece, like Antetokoumpo, then I'm quite sure he would have played for Greece.
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Levenspiel View Post
    That's exactly what came my mind as well. I once listened to an interview by Vezenkov, and he sounded like he really wanted to represent Bulgaria, even if he has not lived over there as you mentioned. I think we should also respect that.
    What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

    That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".

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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

    That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".
    I think two parties have to agree, the player and government. If player wants to play in national team for country, that is okey, but government has to set rules for citizenship - test language, carry out the interview for why he wants to become citizen - it has to be unselfish reason that shows patriotism to country.

    Macedonia government was too much liberal giveing out citizenship to McCalebb, he wanted and he got it, with no language, no patriotism and no connection. It was a slap in the face of true Macedonian people. Shame to government for allowing this.

    FIBA should fine those countries by banning country participation in turnament or something, because if there are no fines, countries are being encouraged to have more naturalised players and think it is okey to do that.

  16. #56

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    Wait a minute, you are proposing that FIBA keep rules that allow players like McCalebb to play for Macedonia, only to fine or ban their country once they have played?

    Surely it would make a lot more sense if FIBA simply had it in their rules that such players are not allowed in the NT. This way, you have no need to fine anyone any more, you simply have a player who doesn't get to play for that NT.

    The advantage is also that it completely eliminates the need for any scrutiny over the way the various countries give citizenships.

    I mean, while I can agree that it's a slap to the face of the Macedonian people that individuals that never set foot in the country can get a citizenship, while I can agree with that, that's not particularly relevant to bball national teams, and it's obviously not FIBA's business to decide who is a Macedonian citizen and who isn't.

    That's why the requirement that the players have to have played at least two seasons in the country they wish to represent makes the most sense: it is an efficient, practical, easily verifiable, bball-related criteria, as opposed to completely abstract concepts like "patriotism" that are by nature impossible to verify and have little to do with bball national teams anyway. Of course the same requirement would also apply to Koufos or Sabonis. Surely if they are such patriots that's not too much to ask.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    What if he really wanted to represent Finland instead, should we also repect that? And didn't McCalebb really want to represent Macedonia?

    That's opening a huge can of worms if national team eligibility is governed by what the players "really want".
    Vezenkov is an ethnic Bulgarian who wanted to play for Bulgaria. Under Bulgarian law he had every right to become a Bulgarian national. He had no right to get a Finnish passport, because he is not an ethnic Fin. So, even if he wanted to play for Finland it would have been impossible. Unless a naturalization procedure was invoked such as the case of McCalebb.
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  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    Vezenkov is an ethnic Bulgarian who wanted to play for Bulgaria. Under Bulgarian law he had every right to become a Bulgarian national. He had no right to get a Finnish passport, because he is not an ethnic Fin. So, even if he wanted to play for Finland it would have been impossible. Unless a naturalization procedure was invoked such as the case of McCalebb.
    So the bottom line is that it would have been possible.

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    boz74, you knew very well what I meant.

    The disagreement stands. You argue that ethnic ties should not be a justification to represent a country, while I and a few other members think otherwise; it should/could be, at least for the 1st generation. Vezenkov's desire to play for Bulgaria should be respected because he's Bulgarian through his parents. McCalebb doesn't satisfy the first criteria, so it doesn't matter if he really wants to represent FYRoM or not.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    So the bottom line is that it would have been possible.
    Under FIBA's rules, yes. I am all in favor of reversing the rules which allow for naturalization.

    But cases such as Vezenkov, Sabonis and the like are perfectly legit. And there is nothing FIBA can do about that. Nor should they.
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