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Thread: Player naturalisations

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Great logic. Thnx to it, I just found out that Domantas Sabonis is not Lithuanian, but Spanish-American. He was born in US, grew up in Spain, so the country of his parents is not important, he must play for US or Spain, not Lithuania, it's national, not ethnic teams
    You are correct: he should only be allowed to play for Spain or the USA, unless he is not a citizen of either country.

    The country of his parents should indeed make no difference (see Tony Parker).

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by mchale View Post
    Not incidentally.That his two parents were greek citizens it's a fact not incident and according to FIBA rules he is eligible to play as greek(not naturalized) in the Greek NT.Also according to the laws of the greek state he is a greek citizen.So I don't see the point.
    Of course he's eligible according to FIBA rules. The point is that he shouldn't be.

    Also according to the laws of the greek state Batiste is a Greek citizen (I'm assuming he did indeed get his citizenship) and so too are plenty of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by mchale View Post
    So you discovered that people can have multiple citizenships. That's great. And your point is?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious View Post
    There is no player in the Greek NT who bypassed this legal mainframe.
    No one claimed that there was.

    The point is that merely being a Greek citizen shouldn't be enough to be eligible for the national team. Indeed you yourself have argued that naturalized players shouldn't be eligible, so quite obviously you agree that a mere citizenship isn't enough.

  4. #24
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    You are correct: he should only be allowed to play for Spain or the USA, unless he is not a citizen of either country.

    The country of his parents should indeed make no difference (see Tony Parker).
    Unless... he is a child born in Lithuanian family... but in US, cause his father was not that bad bball player and played in NBA, but kid was raised as Lithuanian with all the traditions/language, but not in Lithuania, cause again, his father played in USA and decided to live in Spain after that for some time to keep his family away from all the sick attention coming from Lith media. So kid grew up as Lithuanian, feels himself Lithuanian and can't play for his country cause his father played abroad and kept his family with him? Do you realise how ridiculous it sounds? I could agree that grandparents shouldn't count as some connection to country, but to say that parents should make no difference is insane, especially in current times with open borders, European Union and etc. when so many people are looking for the better living abroad, raising childs there and etc.


  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Unless... he is a child born in Lithuanian family...
    No, that shouldn't make him eligible for the Lithuanian national team. Again: see Tony Parker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    but in US, cause his father was not that bad bball player and played in NBA, but kid was raised as Lithuanian with all the traditions/language, but not in Lithuania, cause again, his father played in USA and decided to live in Spain after that for some time to keep his family away from all the sick attention coming from Lith media. So kid grew up as Lithuanian, feels himself Lithuanian and can't play for his country cause his father played abroad and kept his family with him?
    None of the above is even remotely relevant to the Lithuanian basketball national team. He's not a product of Lith bball, there is nohing Lithuanian about him as a basketball player. The reasons why make no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Do you realise how ridiculous it sounds?
    That's not ridiculous at all. For the record, these are the rules used by the IIHF, an equally respectable organization.

    What is ridiculous is the idea that someone should be allowed in a country's national sports team just because he has learned the language or has a parent from there or likes that country's cuisine and god knows what other irrelevant trivia you might come up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    I could agree that grandparents shouldn't count as some connection to country, but to say that parents should make no difference is insane, especially in current times with open borders, European Union and etc. when so many people are looking for the better living abroad, raising childs there and etc.
    The children raised in Germany should embrace the idea of joining the German national team.

    That the borders are open is exactly why the parents' nationality will become increasingly irrelevant. The funny idea that your parents' nationality define you in any way will die out eventually as more and more people will realise they are defined by the country they grew up in, not the country of their parents.

    See Adetokoumbo and Parker as examples. Parker's father went looking for the better living abroad, as you put it, and as a result his son is a French bb player, not an American one, as much as you might hate to admit it. There's absolutely nothing "insane" about that.

  6. #26
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose? with which country he had the biggest conection? Obviously it was France. What the hell IIHF has to do with it? Is it some ministery of truth or right decisions or smth? It isn't. They has good rule to forbid McCalebb cases, that's all. Overall it's plain and simple sane logic - kid of Lithuanian parents must be allowed to play for Lithuanian NT. The same goes for any such case. Period. Kid might choose differently, like the same Parker did, if he doesn't feel any connections with country of his birth or with countries of his parents, but there must be no restrictions in cases like Domantas, thankfully there are not and atleast FIBA makes smth sane. Hopefully someday they will kick all the McCalebbs from NTs either


  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    What the hell Parker has to do with it? His father was who - American, mother Dutch, he was born in Belgium and raised in France... what did you expect him to choose? with which country he had the biggest conection? Obviously it was France.
    I don't think it takes a genius to see what Parker has to do with this discussion: his situation is similar to Koufos and Sabonis Jr.

    Parker chose the country he grew up in (where he wasn't even born as you noted), not the country of his parents. Not that he should even have been allowed to choose, mind you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    What the hell IIHF has to do with it?
    They have implemented the rules that you find "insane".

    Last time I checked, they are not any more "insane" than FIBA.

    Their rules make perfect sense, and I for one think their rules are much better than FIBA's, or any other international body for that matter.

    They have done a great job eliminating most of the "oriundi" that populated the national teams of Italy, France or Britain, and these countries are much better off for it.

    All the oriundi (like Koufos) have to do is go play two seasons in the country they wish to represent. If they are such patriots that shouldn't be too much to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    They has good rule to forbid McCalebb cases, that's all. Overall it's plain and simple sane logic - kid of Lithuanian parents must be allowed to play for Lithuanian NT.
    Whether or not a kid of Lithuanian parents should be allowed to play for the Lithuanian national team has absolutely nothing to do with "logic", it is merely a matter of opinion.

    Indeed you have failed to come up with any rational argument one way or the other, all you have done is repeating that disagreeing with you is "insane" or "ridiculous"; thats is: you're merely stating your opinion.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    Indeed you have failed to come up with any rational argument one way or the other, all you have done is repeating that disagreeing with you is "insane" or "ridiculous"; thats is: you're merely stating your opinion.
    And you feel you did smth different? And Of course, it looks irrational when kid of Lith parents is allowed to play in LT NT... I rest my case here, felt that it might be time wasting since first post - approved


  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    And you feel you did smth different? And Of course, it looks irrational when kid of Lith parents is allowed to play in LT NT... I rest my case here, felt that it might be time wasting since first post - approved
    We both have been stating our opinions, since the disagreement is about opinions, and not "logic". Thanks for making my point.

    And of course, it looks perfectly rational to disallow a kid of Lith parents to play for the Lith NT if he never actually played there. Just because you disagree with something does not make it "irrational".

    It is indeed a waste of time discussing with someone like you who is so utterly unable to distinguish his mere opinions from "facts" or "logic".

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    We both have been stating our opinions, since the disagreement is about opinions, and not "logic". Thanks for making my point.

    And of course, it looks perfectly rational to disallow a kid of Lith parents to play for the Lith NT if he never actually played there. Just because you disagree with something does not make it "irrational".

    It is indeed a waste of time discussing with someone like you who is so utterly unable to distinguish his mere opinions from "facts" or "logic".
    If I may interject, there are many reasons why there is nothing irrational that Sabonis would play for Lithuania.
    1) He was born to Lithuanian parents
    2) His name is Lithuanian
    3) He speaks in Lithuanian
    4) He has represented Lithuanian youth teams since 16 years old = he feels Lithuanian

    He is not product of Lithuanian basketball system but so is national team member Pocius, Songaila, Jasikevicius and so on other players who plaid in USA high school and college system. So your argument is not valid.

    Yes, Lithuania basketball federation could be asses and not allow Sabonis to play but FIBA on reason 4 above will not be able to stop Sabonis from participation. He has American and Lithuanian citizenship, not Spanish afaik.

    Naturalised players should not be allowed when they have no connection to country that they playing for. Example: Langford, Rice, Jeter, McCalebb and other Americans. Sabonis is much closer to homeland than any of those players.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storžievis View Post
    If I may interject, there are many reasons why there is nothing irrational that Sabonis would play for Lithuania.
    1) He was born to Lithuanian parents
    2) His name is Lithuanian
    3) He speaks in Lithuanian
    4) He has represented Lithuanian youth teams since 16 years old = he feels Lithuanian
    I never said it was "irrational".

    I simply disagree that points 1 to 3 should be enough for someone to become eligible to a country's national team, especially points 2 and 3: should someone learning a foreign language become eligible to whichever countries speak that language? Of course not.

    Also if he has Lithuanian parents, I don't see what his Lithuanian name adds to that: you make it sound like having Lithuanian parents but no Lithuanian name makes someone less Lithuanian. That's gross.

    As for point 4, you're basically arguing that he should be allowed to the NT because he was allowed in the NT. That's circular logic ! Of course I'm arguing he shoulnd't have been allowed in the youth teams in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storžievis View Post
    He is not product of Lithuanian basketball system but so is national team member Pocius, Songaila, Jasikevicius and so on other players who plaid in USA high school and college system. So your argument is not valid.
    All of them did play in Lithuania and are thus products of the Lithuanian basketball system, so the point stands.

    You might also want to realise that (to my knowledge) none of them hold any other citizenship.

    But regardless, assuming there was indeed another player who did play in the NT without having played in the country before, it obviously does not invalidate the argument that such players shouldn't be allowed in the NT. That's just poor logic on your part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Storžievis View Post
    Naturalised players should not be allowed when they have no connection to country that they playing for. Example: Langford, Rice, Jeter, McCalebb and other Americans. Sabonis is much closer to homeland than any of those players.
    While I agree Sabonis is probably closer to his country, that's a moot point: none of them should be allowed anyway.

  12. #32
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    I ......felt that it might be time wasting since first post -
    Indeed you were.
    Anyways ,I was thinking about it and came to realise that we indeed had a few players who ,judging by the citizenship standards Lithuania as a country has nowadays ,were a bit off.
    If Alijevas case is pretty straightforward,were his dad was foreign and his mum native to Lithuania ,plus he was born in Kaunas ,then Anisimov's case is completely opposite - he came to Lithuania just because for opportunistic reasons as far as I am aware. Indeed he became world under 21 champion ,had a decent career in Klaipeda and lrytas before he moved back to Ukraine for good. Both of them ,although very talented at junior level, never progressed far enough to be playing for our NT team. Even if it happened , I do not think that there would had been any opposition from Lithuanian public .
    Regarding the players born abroad to Lithuanian parents but without citizenship nothing much changed since 1992 when players like Joe Arlauckas or Leo Rautins were more than welcome to come and join our team up till Nick Stauskas saga .
    I have no issues with players like Koufos or Calathes representing Greece as well.
    But, as many people here ,I have to draw the line where favours are exchanging hands when player gets EU passport for them to represent Nt team.

  13. #33
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    More and more players representing one country were born away abroad . And that is a trend that will increase in a future. Some of thEm will be/ are born to parent with different nationalities .
    Let's see how many cases I can find for current under 20 u teams who were born away from the country they are representing.
    Bosnia and Hercegovina - 3.
    Croatia - 3.
    France -1
    GB -3
    Greece- 1
    Israel -4
    Italy-1
    Lithuania -2
    Russia-1
    Serbia -2
    Slovenia-1
    Spain-1
    One or two or perhaps more players were born were born in the country they represent ,but have dual nationality parents.
    So that is that. And this trend is going to increase with time.
    How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination

  14. #34

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    Country of birth should make no difference.

    The issue with a player like Koufos is not where he was born, it is where he grew up and, more specifically, where he played his basketball.


    Quote Originally Posted by auris1 View Post
    How about if one parent is from country A ,mother is from country B, child is born in C , but they resided ever after in country D ? And that is not far fetch combination
    If they have only ever played basketball in country D, then of course they should only be allowed to play for that country, unless for some reason they have not gained citizenship in that country.

  15. #35
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    So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
    I think I already know the answer to that one

    Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    So by those standards Kobe Bryant could've technicaly selected to play for Italy. Born in the States, moved to Italy when 6 or something like that and moved back to the states at the age of 13 when his dad retired, let's say his dad would play 2 more years, would that make it natural for Kobe to play for Italian U15 by your standards?
    I think I already know the answer to that one
    I'm pretty sure he's not an Italian citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Some people might dislike the whole concept of nationality or citizenship, while I understand some parts of those arguements I still tend to disagree with them, while that philosophy applies to this topic terribly as we could just abolish national teams alltogether in that case.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

    If FIBA were to alter eligibility rules so that either McCalebb or Koufos or both would become ineligible, then we could just abolish national teams altogether? Is that what you're saying?

  17. #37
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    A 'national team' seems to mean different things to different people. I don't really see a national team as some all-star representation of a national league, as it seems some (boz74?) would like it to be. I think there can be other competition formats for that purpose. I also DON'T (edit) think that if and where a person practiced and played basketball has much to do with a given person's nationality and eligilbility to represent a national team, but may play a part in someone's citizenship. I just think that a member of any national team should play in the team for other reasons than money and a player with a dual citizenship should at least not be able to hop back and forth between national teams.

    IIHF rules aren't very clear cut by the way when it comes to naturalized players (there are all sorts of exceptions).
    Last edited by Upi; 07-18-2015 at 05:51 AM.

  18. #38

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    It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

    And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.

  19. #39
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    The IIFH rules are logical, but they are ineficient. There would be players who feel connected to their homeland trough parents but not able to play because they grew up at another country because parents decide to move there. Players should be able to play in whichever country they feels most attached - that would be eficient from society view.

    But problem is, that people like Langford, Rice, Jeter, they have no shame in taking citizenship of another country to which they have no connections. They do not valuing another countrys culture, language and meaning of citizenship. And countrys have no shame giving citizenship to aliens just to be strong and do better in international turnaments.

    All deals for automatic naturalisation of any player who do not try to assimilate to country they want to play in should be made illegal in first place, with heavy fines to countrys federation to discourage behavior. Marriage or no marriage, if player does not know meaning of citizenship of country and not even trying to learn language, he does not simply play in that country.

    Second, players who grown up in another country but feeling more attachment to homeland country should be allowed to play in homeland country (Sabonis case). Players who grown up in another country and feeling attachment to that country should play in that country also (Tony Parker case).

    That is my opinion, most fellow Lithuanians will have similar opinion about this topic.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by boz74 View Post
    It does not seem to me that the ice hockey national teams are even remotely close to being some all-star representation of a national league, surely as a Finn you know that.

    And IIHF rules are very clear when it comes to players like Koufos or McCalebb: neither would be eligible.
    Actually I agree with you about the IIHF rules (being better than the bastketball naturalization rules), but I also think that IIHF rules would allow Storzievis' Sabonis case and would allow him to represent Lithuania. He would have to petition for the right, but it would be clear-cut case (unless he had already chosen to play in e.g. a US or Spanish national team), like it was e.g. in the case of Teemu Selänne's 18y old son who has a dual citizenship and who just represented Finland in U18 tournament, although he has lived all his life abroad in the US/Canada where his father worked. Looking into Koufos' case, I'm 100% he could have represented Greece in ice hockey also, but what comes to McCaleb and Macedonia, IIHF rules would have allowed that too, just take a look at the South Korean's national team in ice hockey with several naturalized players.

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