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  • #31
    Interesting, if I understood correctly ACB isn't unanimous in their support but their representative (Francisco Roca) is pro-euroleague. In any case, ACB isn't enough for Bertomeu, it's the biggest portion to chew, it might be a good start to have the support of their main man, but I personaly still expect almost a fanatic opposition to euroleague by some of their clubs.
    If I had to guess the 2nd league supporting euroleague is Israeli, I don't feel like bugging people that might be up to date with it and confirm it, after 5+ years of not talking to them. But if I had to guess my bets would be on them, as an idea of a closed league is way more popular in Israel than in most other states (could be an interesting subject why so, but maybee some other time).
    The third is a questionmark, afterall the ACB case above shows it's president might be sideing with euroleague without the unanimous backup by it's members, but I'm pretty sure those aren't likely to be Italians that lost too much in last decade to back euroleague without considering alternatives or Germans, due to the feeling I got paying attention to their BBL-chief Pommer.
    Russia with a stance to try to compromise with Fiba is an interesting development, I've got no idea where they might be headed. Terrorizer, you seem to be fluent with Russian bball politics? Will this fold out as who pays more as with majority with european leagues or are there some other potential interests involved? resentment due to euroleague acting so slow adapting the number of Russian teams to the strenght-realities?
    In any case, both Demirel and Bertomeu must be preparing daily right now trying to increase their tolerance of Vodka.

    I'm still not clear with the Greek, I mean Aris and PAOK's answers are known prior to asking and both of these are proportionaly stronger with influence than with money compared to Pao, Oly

    Turkey missing from that group, don't want to point out anything, could be a coincidence or the fact Bertomeu considers them worth of special attention


    @Peace - yup! there might be some more... however I am certain if for example Baskonia hypotheticaly dropped out of ACB and play euroleague only they'd have to drop the prices of their season tickets along that (and some other clubs as well, some others wouldn't). And, repeating myself, I just can't stress enough how difficult it is to play on 3 fronts in the week - Maccabi fans know that, playing in Israeli championship, adriatic league and euroleague at the same time and they've been visibly suffering at those periods (interestingly enough both times dissapointed in euroleague while playing in ABA, and winning it the season after if I am not mistaken ).
    I can hardly believe that Friday - Tuesday thing can be true as it makes so little sense either way, puts clubs in a lose-lose situation and they're smart enough to calculate that in.

    @Terrorizer, I agree. I am far from being enthusiastic about Fiba's state of mind, however they at least don't drive me nuts with their proposals and as much as I don't neccesarily agree with their november and february NT-timetable I can understand they're trying to spread the interest for national teams in bball more evenly through the year, I disagree with it but at least it has some sense I can disagree with to begin with.
    Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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    • #32
      I am sure, that FIBA will lose this battle.

      1) Joining the FIBA Project for all clubs (and their leagues) would mean to accept the new calendar with open windows for national team games in Sep, Nov, Feb and June. Not only for the Euroleague, but also for most national leagues this is unacceptable! Most leagues would have to reduce their size and their number of games, which automatically would reduce the incomes of the clubs. FIBA so far denied all compromises and instead pressures now national federations to down the opposition of the leagues and the clubs. This also is the one and only reason, why FIBA now launches their own Euroleague project (which, of course, will have these open windows).

      2) Remember the season 2000-01? Most big clubs were sick by seeing their investments governed by amateur, if not corrupt officials from the federations and decided to launch their own league. Only a few teams like Maccabi, CSKA, Panathinaikos, Efes, Ulker, Partizan or Alba stayed with FIBA, but the "SuproLeague" went bankrupt after only one year. All these clubs then had to knock on the door in Barcelona: "Sorry, Jordi! We made big mistake by staying with FIBA. Might we still join the Euroleague, please?" I cannot imagine, that these clubs now are ready to join the the FIBA Euroleague at the first chance - only to see their money governed again by the federations.

      All other arguments like A-licenses, Jordi's new pyramid system, etc are secondary important. Before Bertomeu loses his clubs, he will fulfill all their wishes. That's, what the struggle in this moment is all about. It's a good chance to change something. How could FIBA threaten or punish the clubs? By not accepting their players for national teams any longer? I know enough players, who would not care about that. This would go back to FIBA like a boomerang with a World Cup missing many big players. By instructing the national leagues not to accept the clubs any longer? Then there will be enough strong clubs to establish a European NBA-like competition - of course, with smaller money, but that still would have more glamour than the FIBA EuroChallenge (then probably called FIBA Champions League). And what would ACB look like without Real and Barcelona?
      Last edited by Hot Spot; 04-16-2015, 11:55 AM.

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      • #33
        I think that new calendar will be negotionable, Fiba already failed with NBA on that subject and there is a talk they accepted some other compromise there, other than that yeah the stance with the new calendar hurts Fiba, insisting on that would mean they'd worsen their negotiation stance and they are likely to do the same as euroleague will in regards to their shortcomings, stay silent and take it away from the table untill they're strong enough and not challenged in an euroleague-war.

        2001? Well, suproleague went bankrupt along with the company that managed their TV rights, but it's not like euroleague's Telefonica didn't do the same just few months later? They promised more money to euroleague participants than they could realisticaly provide (rang a bell these days reading about their new financial proposal), but Fiba was gone by than and Uleb won as the last surviver. Looking at the results of the so called incapable Fiba running the TV rights, there are clubs in 2015, 15 years since the great schism, that received less money from TV rights than under FIBA, won't state their number as I honestly don't have the comparison, but wouldn't be surprised if those were actualy a majority.
        Yeah Stanković did screw up back than, but what does that make of the euroleague's pathetic financial improvements in recent years?
        Back than euroleague was set differently and was much more lovable, untill those licences appeared and pretentions to make it a closed league crystalised. With all these licences there aren't as many EL-loyal clubs, that would for some reason feel as ashamed for their bending of the knee in 2001 as some others are enraged for being put in a secondary position from the very start. That's the catch. It might be a secondary topic for some Žalgiris, Real or Maccabi fan, but most definately isn't for supporters of other clubs that are stagnating with the every new attempt to make a feasible EL system for the past decade and those fans ammount few times the number of the elite 12 clubs fanbase.


        All about the punishment has been explained above. In case Fiba starts winning the battle (if they don't they'd supposedly withraw as soon as possible), they can easily afford punishing those few federations by excluding them from eurobasket unless they exclude the clubs sideing with euroleague from their competitions... a bit more complicated when the league is in the hand of the clubs, however doable and that's a small price federations would easily and willingly pay, but won't have to as I don't think lots of clubs can afford that stance in the first place and if euroleague has been hypotheticaly left with 3-4 countries only that probably means they've lost the battle anyway. Euroleague answered with a model where their clubs wouldn't have to be dependend on their national league exclusively, but has holes all over even if we did have all the data there is to have.
        You missed the point, it's not banning players, it's banning federations, meaning national teams. Good luck with establishing a new Fiba-like organisation, of course Fiba's reputation would suffer if an open-fight would occur but than again, calculation is so simple there should never even come to this. Some call that extortion, but it's not really like pretending that 12 clubs represent whole european basketball ignoring complaints of all the rest, which euroleague has been doing for years now, is something entirely different.

        Yeah, Jordi will grant all of their wishes, but you don't get the fact those are the wishes of 10-12 clubs that have no right to be as arogant to believe they can monopolyse over the right to dictate the course of european club basketball - medieval ages are gone and right to rule set by a divine hand is supposed to be considered backward by now. Bayern is supposed to tell me what they want and what they don't want in top euro-bball competitions? thanks, but no. Neither they'd done anything to earn that priviledge, neither I want Virtus Bologna, Hapoel, Zadar, Aris, Tofas, or Honka freaking Playboys to be excluded from that discussion.
        ACB would be competitive without Barcelona and Real, harmed of course, but the harm would go both ways ACB as well as both clubs, I'm sure they'll calculate it prior to making a decision.
        Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 04-16-2015, 12:49 PM.
        Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
        That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
          Russia with a stance to try to compromise with Fiba is an interesting development, I've got no idea where they might be headed. Terrorizer, you seem to be fluent with Russian bball politics? Will this fold out as who pays more as with majority with european leagues or are there some other potential interests involved? resentment due to euroleague acting so slow adapting the number of Russian teams to the strenght-realities?
          Well, I'm not the one who knows every behind-the-curtains move and hidden agenda in Russian basketball community. But as far as I can judge there are two different poles in Russian basketball community - one is personified by current CSKA's management and their patrons and the other, more traditional and conservative, which ruled federation for years, is still heftily represented in many clubs, regional basketball federations and coaches&ex-players community as well.

          Recently the first group (I would call it a 'clique' in fact) prevailed on a massive scale despite meeting fierce resistance from former federation's officials. Getting federation-independent VTB league instead of federation-managed PBL (Professional Basketball League) and putting Ivanov's protege Yulia Anikeeva, a young woman with no background in basketball, as a president of RFB (Russian Federation of Basketball) were final nails in the coffin. There was a mess after that with legal litigation in civic court from one of our regional basketball federation which demanded to annul Anikeeva's election due to extreme voting irregularities (these irregularities really had place), Lithuanian teams leaving VTB league due to political pressure in their home country and bizarre sudden disintegration of our NT where in the summer before the last Eurobasket there were three head coaches changes and which played with a roster as far from optimal as one can imagine. The fact that FIBA gave one of its 'wild cards' for WC-2014 to Finland ignoring Russia was justly seen as a severe humiliation of Russian basketball.

          But this 'CSKA clique' can trust on an unanimous backing from the very top of state, economic and political elite in Russia which sadly became a big factor recently. Ivanov's personal connections in top echelons of political power are more than enough to give what we call 'an administrative resource' help to implementation of any basketball-related idea generated in his moronic mind. There are some good aspects stemming from state support and (positive) state interference in some branches of sport in Russia but in basketball such an interference proved to be grossly negative and destructive.

          Talking about Russia's role in this FIBA/ULEB rift v. 2.0 I'm not even sure that 'CSKA top dogs' would be the first to jump on Jordi's bandwagon but certainly inner logic of their position make them willing to back Jordi. These bastards would like to end all national teams competitions altogether and have a shameful history of pressuring CSKA's Russian players not to show up for NT camps and tournaments, so those 'windows' for international competitions surely grate on CSKA crooks' nerves. Overall, they are not interested in Russian league and should certainly be ecstatic about CSKA leaving domestic competition in order to take part in 'European NBA'. So it seems highly logical if this clique which currently holds the power in Russian basketball (including most of the top spots in RFB structures) will back closed 16 teams Euroleague.

          Yet there are powerful clubs in Russia, whose top management is often closer to that 'conservative' fraction, and the main question mark is how they will behave in such a situation. They are much more interested in Russian championship than CSKA (and some of these persons tend to be much more patriotic than CSKA managers and care about Russian basketball as a whole, including national team's interests) and there is a sense of deep resentment with the fact that Russia is underpresented in Euroleague, so these top Russian clubs (Khimki, UNICS, Loko, potentially NN and Zenit) are not crazed about all things ULEB and their retarded perspectives of closed league. But there is one aspect which can entice these clubs into pro-ULEB camp. If ULEB would give Russia a guaranteed second spot in this league and will implement a proposed qualification system with 'two worst EL teams out - two EuroCup finalists in' each season, then it can actually increase Russian representation in Euroleague to 3 or even 4 teams (as Russia has a very successful EuroCup history and it would hardly be a subject to change if EL outsiders would be put in EC) and that would be an improvement over current situation. These big clubs know it, so how benevolent Jordi and Co would be towards these mid-major teams is crucial if there would be any other proponents of this retarded 'European NBA" among Russian powerhouses except for CSKA.

          That's how I see this situation but most probably there is more than meets an eye (of mine) as I don't know many details of the 'inner kitchen' in Russian basketball.
          2013/2014 IBN Euroleague Prediction Game Winner

          Thrash 'till Death!

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          • #35
            After this report: mundodeportivo.com/baloncesto/euroliga/20150416/102848640405/la-euroliga-se-plantea-jugar-dos-partidos-por-semana.html
            the Spanish clubs are against playing Tuesday and Friday. The article mentions the clubs from Israel and Greece as positive on the idea, but for a strong league like the spanish one, the idea fails. Another problem mentioned is the possible overlapping with dates from soccer champions league on Tuesdays, so that the Bball-clubs would have to play on Wednesday, another worsening of the situation.

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            • #36
              Expected, that's the dilema I wrote about above, national championship incomes are still very relevant for most of those teams (CSKA, Efes among exceptions), while this tempo of 3 games in a week, guarantees unnecesary loses on both fronts unless there is a huge quality gap between euroleague participants and the rest of the league, as in Greece (although not all that big as some imagine) and Israel. That will be a problem for Spanish and Turkish teams, while some other teams won't have exactly an easy path either. This model might work in case the clubs would leave the national championships, however I find that highly unlikely. That's why I said I believe this is more of a desperation move to strenghten up support before Fiba strikes with all they have, than a serious attempt to improve the competition.
              Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
              That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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              • #37
                Fuck FIBA! Fuck ULEB!

                I hate fucking Jordi for destroying competitive basketball over the years and destroying all basketball, sportsman spirit but don't be NAIVE, this FIBA leaders are no difrent then ULEB greedy crooks

                When we tallk about A, B, C, D, ŽNJ licsense don't forget FUCKING INVITATIONS for WC inputed by FIBA, made for RICH ONLY!!! Or how they broke their own rules in Preldzic case, Ilyasov case, Vujcic case etc...

                Basketball and sport needs new independent ogranisation that is only sport oriented, but that's utopia just like world without wars lead by power and money interst only. To many sheeps with no balls and character around
                Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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                • #38
                  I agree with all of the criticism directed at Fiba. I'm by no means trying to say Fiba unlike Bertomeu's euroleague is perfect. Far from it. Am also worried they might at the end succumb and wouldn't copy the champions league model but replace it with some hybrid mess. However changing what euroleague has screwed up in the past decade is neccesary, someone has to do it and whoever does has my support for that particular part.
                  Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
                  That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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                  • #39
                    Open letter by Euroleague and main national leagues to FIBA rejecting the new World Cup Calendar:

                    http://www.euroleaguebasketball.net/...ia3ook7ohno3qf

                    Interesting is, which which of the leagues, that are represented in the Euroleague, have not signed the letter - VTB Unites League, Turkish League and Polish League. Does that mean, that these three would go with FIBA?

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                    • #40
                      eurohoops kind of points in that direction, that TBL owned by federation would stick with Fiba in that case.

                      I think club demands are reasonable and justified and Fiba should definately take care of insurance of the players under contract playing for the national teams. It was mentioned somewhere above Fiba is supposed to be planning on doing so, so this article kind of got me confused at first. If they do so, they do get a bit of a leverage in negotiations.
                      I'm not a particular fan of 2 time-windows for national competitions during the season, while 1 month, should imo be doable. Clubs rightfully see it as a threat, potentialy loosing players to injuries, leagues are in a tough position shortening their available time and potentialy incomes, while Fiba want's to prolongue the attention national teams get, just like it's in football and marketing-wise it's actually a viable logic. Both sides meeting half-way is imo doable here.

                      The fact alone that the letter has been sent is an indication Fiba's intentions are being taken seriously now. I hope their intention wasn't only to steer things up, just to get their national team's time window and withraw later, but they still intend to make a champions league model competiton.
                      Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
                      That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        one more article by eurohoops/

                        FIBA prepares its counter attack in order to get back the control of the top basketball league in the world after the NBA and at this point two things have happened. The first meeting between national federation in Geneva and some informal meetings between FIBA officials and representatives of big European clubs.

                        FIBA promises that if the clubs decide to leave the current Euroleague business structure, the financial data will be much more lucratives and they are presenting as examples the revenues from the last two national teams competitions, Eurobasket 2013 and FIBA World Cup 2014. The verbal proposals are so far the following:

                        In total the clubs participating in the “new” Euroleague will share the sum of 150 m. euros, a number which is five times bigger than the revenues from the current Euroleague.
                        The Euroleague games will be held again on Wednesday and Thursday and not on Friday. Despite the fact that Friday’s game have proved to be a lucrative innovation, many domestic leagues don’t want to arrange their schedule according to Friday’s games, like it happens in Spain with Liga Endesa.
                        FIBA also wants to include more countries in the “new” Euroleague, probably by “locking” the number of clubs each country can have in the league and not taking into account the achievements of each club, no matter its country of origin, like it happened so far with Euroleague. However, also a change in the way berths are given in the current Euroleague is expected.
                        It’s obvious that the “war” is far from over and only time will tell who will prevail in the end. The next two seasons are going to be more than interesting for the future of European basketball and the bottom line will be financial. However gives more money, specially when the salary cup of the NBA will go over the roof, will prevail.

                        The clubs are waiting to see the money and their choice will be simple. That been said, the number of 150 m. euros which FIBA says that can provide in the first season of its league, seem to be out of any current market logic. Only if a company, or even a country for its own reasons, which can be even political, wants to invest this number, without expecting any financial gains, one may assume that the 150 millions can be found.
                        150 millions is a lot. For example eurobasket 2013 only earned 700.000€ for Fiba europe from Italy as far as TV rights go, sure there must've been other much more lucrative TV deals from some other countries, but far from those insane numbers such as 150M. I'm pretty much sure Fiba Europe doesn't have that money itself. 50 millions would be pretty stretched out (yet believable), let alone 150 millions. I don't buy that NBA financial help to Fiba euroleague rumour that appeared a while back and Fiba world helping can't really ammount to such numbers imo.
                        Originally posted by Jon_Koncak
                        That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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                        • #42
                          The NBA is not known for throwing their money away. If they would believe, that you could earn money with a club competition in Europe, they would run a European division by themselves and not let FIBA nor Euroleague do it.

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                          • #43
                            Two-three comments here and sorry for my bad english.First of all the king of the sports is Football.....Basketball is more than a sport,it is religion.The God s sign which leave back on the earth and our effort is to understand and reach Him.
                            About our topic now....I remember in the mid 80s how innovative was Fiba about the European Champions Cup and about structure of it.Every time fiba was one step in front of uefa.Group stage basketball Champions cup...group stage uefa champions cup after 2-3 years.More than one team partecipation of a country in Basketball champions cup ....more than one team partecipation of a country in Uefa champions cup after 2-3 years.Everytime one step in front was Fiba... and football just copy-paste.Every succesful change football just followed.So the champions league model it is nothing more than this that create Fiba first.(qualifing rounds and Group stages with partecipation of the champions team and runners up of all the countries of Europe.From that point any new change was unsuccesful and simply Uefa not followed.So European basketball has to go back in its creation that was so succeful.It is obvious that dictatorship of Bertomeu has to finish as soon as possible.
                            Let s see another one fact.Basketball had an ubelievable increasing popularity because of Nba Magic Johnson -Larry Bird and later Jordan....Fiba take this opporunity and with National teams competitions (world cup and eurobasket) and with Club international competitions(Fiba champions cup -Fiba European Cup and Korac) OPEN FOR ALL... started to put new countries in the Basketball world map.Apart from traditional powers Italy Spain Yugoslavia and ex Soviet .....many new countries appeared and basketball was about to grow....Let take one by one all the examples....My country Greece with the victory of Eurobasket 1987 and the games every Thursday of Aris in Fiba Champions cup everyone here was talking for basketball.I can not forget the empty roads of the city Thursday nights for many years when all people stuck in televisions to watch Aris in the Champions cup(my team is Panathinaikos and i am really Proud but i if i don t recognize what Aris and the OPEN FOR ALL Fiba Champions Cup give to basketball popularity i would be fool.
                            Lets continue ....Germany with the victory of Eurobasket 1993.suddenly Germans learn for a sport named basketball..... Turkey with the partecipation of Efes Pilsen in the final of European Cup and later in Final 4....France with Limoges with the victory of European Champion cup(it was the first ever Live Broadcast Basketball game in France!!! It seemed that an exploition was about to come for more and more countries but suddenly mr Bertomeu said Stop here.It is unbelievable that from that point no new country have entered in the basketball map and The most bad is that some countries like Belgium Portugal Holland Chech Sweden Bulgaria every time played a second role.. in Bertomeu mind these countries not even exist...
                            One another good example is Finland.With the partecipation and some amazing victories in Eurobasket and Fiba word cup all people start a intensive interest for basketball but if they have to wait 3-4 years or maybe more for a new good appearance of their national team better to do something another...is it correct Mr Bertomeu? because you are not allowed them to partecipate not only in the Euroleague but neither to Eurocup!!!!
                            This man is more than a joke
                            Basketball is more than a gameJesusBasketball.jpg

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                            • #44
                              ^
                              Great post.

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                              • #45
                                Republic of CRVENA ZVEZDA

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