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Thread: FIBA vs ULEB

  1. #1221
    Senior Member vivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    bump.
    anyone noticed how attendance this year is is 9% less in comparison with last season.
    in the third of 10 years plan.
    Real Madrid, a last year winner with 2,4% less.
    first season winner Fenerbahce with 9,2% less.
    CSKA over 10% less.
    so when the trend should be up it is actually down.
    didn't they promise a complete turnaround for european basketball?
    they have turned it around allright. in their favour.
    scum league project is turning out to be great. for Bertomeu and his followers.
    %9 means 1000 people on average. It says something, but I'd care much more about TV/online viewership and social media interaction. This is the way to make money, if they will be able to do so.
    Dilimde şarkıların gündüz gece
    Deli gibi aşığız Fenerbahçe
    Bu dünyayı yakarız senin için
    Şampiyonluk gelince

  2. #1222
    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    Do you have the full figures of each team?
    Pos Team Total High Low Average Change
    1 Lithuania Žalgiris 221,048 15,205 13,569 14,737 +8.7%
    2 Greece Panathinaikos OPAP 168,979 18,003 7,487 12,070 −7.2%
    3 Spain Kirolbet Baskonia 164,266 12,657 9,743 10,951 −3.5%
    4 Israel Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv 157,826 11,060 9,476 10,522 −1.9%
    5 Turkey Fenerbahçe Beko 146,959 12,821 7,380 10,497 −9.2%
    6 Spain Real Madrid 137,110 12,749 7,328 9,794 −2.4%
    7 Italy AX Armani Exchange Olimpia 127,778 12,227 6,343 8,519 +14.0%2
    8 Greece Olympiacos 118,379 11,107 5,846 8,456 −5.1%
    9 Russia CSKA Moscow 103,168 12,341 4,473 7,369 −10.3%
    10 Turkey Anadolu Efes 97,232 14,258 3,153 6,945 +78.1%
    11 Spain FC Barcelona Lassa 79,729 7,311 4,372 5,695 +0.3%
    12 Russia Khimki 82,529 7,151 3,259 5,502 −8.6%
    13 Spain Herbalife Gran Canaria 72,348 7,430 3,648 4,823 +18.9%1
    14 Montenegro Budućnost VOLI 71,877 5,260 4,081 4,792 +67.2%1
    15 Germany Bayern Munich 61,196 5,809 3,259 4,371 −20.0%1
    16 Turkey Darüşşafaka Tekfen 40,370 4,204 1,011 2,691 +3.1%1
    League total 1,850,794 18,003 1,011 7,978 −9.1%

    you can find it here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E...319_EuroLeague
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

  3. #1223
    Senior Member janketa's Avatar
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    10 Turkey Anadolu Efes 97,232 14,258 3,153 6,945 +78.1%

    Impressive

    As I see Russians, Greeks and Germans fucked the whole thing

  4. #1224
    Senior Member Efesdxb's Avatar
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    Red Star - Buducnost change has an impact on overall number.
    Gran Canaria - Unicaja also had an impact.
    Go Efes Pilsen - Go Turkey

  5. #1225
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    Pos Team Total High Low Average Change
    1 Lithuania Žalgiris 221,048 15,205 13,569 14,737 +8.7%
    2 Greece Panathinaikos OPAP 168,979 18,003 7,487 12,070 −7.2%
    3 Spain Kirolbet Baskonia 164,266 12,657 9,743 10,951 −3.5%
    4 Israel Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv 157,826 11,060 9,476 10,522 −1.9%
    5 Turkey Fenerbahçe Beko 146,959 12,821 7,380 10,497 −9.2%
    6 Spain Real Madrid 137,110 12,749 7,328 9,794 −2.4%
    7 Italy AX Armani Exchange Olimpia 127,778 12,227 6,343 8,519 +14.0%2
    8 Greece Olympiacos 118,379 11,107 5,846 8,456 −5.1%
    9 Russia CSKA Moscow 103,168 12,341 4,473 7,369 −10.3%
    10 Turkey Anadolu Efes 97,232 14,258 3,153 6,945 +78.1%
    11 Spain FC Barcelona Lassa 79,729 7,311 4,372 5,695 +0.3%
    12 Russia Khimki 82,529 7,151 3,259 5,502 −8.6%
    13 Spain Herbalife Gran Canaria 72,348 7,430 3,648 4,823 +18.9%1
    14 Montenegro Budućnost VOLI 71,877 5,260 4,081 4,792 +67.2%1
    15 Germany Bayern Munich 61,196 5,809 3,259 4,371 −20.0%1
    16 Turkey Darüşşafaka Tekfen 40,370 4,204 1,011 2,691 +3.1%1
    League total 1,850,794 18,003 1,011 7,978 −9.1%

    you can find it here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E...319_EuroLeague
    Thanks.

    Speaking about PAO, our poor run for over two months contributed as well as the price increase for the cheapest ticket going from 15 euros to 22 euros did not help.

    Season ticket sales went from 8.500 to 10.000 but single ticket sales dropped it seems.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
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  6. #1226
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    To be honest, CSKA, Khimki, Real and Milano f.e. improved a lot from few years ago. Not to mention Efes that used to have really good teams with 2000-3000 attendance in some seasons...

    However the long term attendance is pretty much predictable, unless some teams move to a notably bigger arenas and some others get crazed about basketball all of a sudden. When the format is based on maximising the short term revenues, those will naturaly increase short term, but we all know the dangers when acting so.

    TV revenue aren't neccesarily linear with TV ratings. That's how a french team could represent a notable increase, considering their league's TV rights represent a higher benchmark for euroleague compared to some others.

    Ultimately, well... euroleague will likely not entirely fail, but euroleague's attendance and TV ratings will eventualy hit a steep wall. And the longer euroleague will stay abducted by those few individual clubs, the more will european basketball move towards becoming a 3rd string european club competition, with two weeks of relative attention continent wise, when NBAers will represent their countries at eurobasket. Considering the promise it had in 90ies, that's an underdevelopment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  7. #1227
    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    ULEB statement on 2019-20 Euroleague calendar

    Official statement from ULEB

    On april 8th 2019 ULEB and its member leagues were informed by Euroleague Basketball (ECA) about its calendar changes for the season 2019-2020.

    On December 19th 2018 all leagues received a “draft calendar” for the 2019-2020 Euroleague season from ECA that served as the base to plan their respective domestic leagues, as it was in previous years. On March 13th 2019 ECA invited all shareholder leagues for a meeting at its offices in Barcelona. At this meeting ULEB and its member leagues requested ECA for better dialogue and transparency in order to be able to collaborate in a positive way, as can be expected with shareholders. No concrete potential calendar changes were addressed at the meeting, except for the information that the final calendar had to be confirmed by the ECA Board on April 3rd 2019. After this meeting nor ULEB, nor its member leagues were consulted in any way regarding the significant modifications.

    These late and impacting calendar changes, including an earlier start and later end of the Euroleague regular season and postponing the Euroleague Final 4 by a week compared to previous seasons, make it extremely difficult for the domestic leagues to schedule their 2019-2020 season. National schedules of most leagues had already been finalized, based on arena availabilities, and had been sent out to the respective clubs.

    Unfortunately, these late changes are another incident in the relationship between ECA and the domestic leagues that damages the interests of the domestic leagues and European basketball.

    It is ULEB’s conviction that all parties can benefit from an integrated and balanced model where local basketball, European basketball and national team basketball all have their place. ULEB, for the good of basketball, believes in the basic values of the European sport model, based on sporting merits, with an open access pyramid structure.

    ULEB and its members expect to be consulted by ECA and its co-shareholders for future decisions that impact the interest of basketball in Europe in general and in the national leagues in particular.
    https://sportando.basketball/en/uleb...ague-calendar/

    In european basketball everyone is against everyone at the moment, or at least everyone acting on their own. Jordi Scum doing a fine good job of destroying what's left of european basketball.
    a real trojan horse of european basketball.
    first it was FIBA against ULEB, then it was FIBA against ECA, now it is domestic leagues against ECA and even ULEB as one of the ECA shareholders is also not 100% behind ECA.
    wtf?
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

  8. #1228
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    The LNB president is not impressed with the EuroLeague either.

    https://sportando.basketball/en/alai...ional-leagues/

  9. #1229
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    The NBA is doing a fine "job" killing quality European basketball. The same from China.

    Back in the 90's you had about 10 European players in the NBA..today probably 70-80. Back in the 90's European clubs could afford contracts of ex-NBA stars of 32-33 years of age because of the minimum contract in the Nba being $250K. It's so much more now.

    The homegrown European quality has left, American quality isn't coming since the NBA can offer much more money for a player to be a 12th man scrub on their team, or that player going to China for more money.

    Sponsors like teams with great players to push their products. Not many if any left in Europe. This means less revenue for teams.
    Mi imamo svoga boga, on se zove Bodiroga.
    Demetrious "Primo Gavrorum Malleus" Diamantidis

    Thank you for all you have given me. 6*
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bxh4eYMxw

    Panathinaikos is not just a club. It's a religion.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtWbTZbfkI8

    When the OAKA foundations moved a couple metres
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbFl2mO8E0

  10. #1230
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    Quote Originally Posted by EverGreen View Post
    The NBA is doing a fine "job" killing quality European basketball. The same from China.

    Back in the 90's you had about 10 European players in the NBA..today probably 70-80. Back in the 90's European clubs could afford contracts of ex-NBA stars of 32-33 years of age because of the minimum contract in the Nba being $250K. It's so much more now.

    The homegrown European quality has left, American quality isn't coming since the NBA can offer much more money for a player to be a 12th man scrub on their team, or that player going to China for more money.

    Sponsors like teams with great players to push their products. Not many if any left in Europe. This means less revenue for teams.
    Definately. However you can remember the days when NBA teams had something like 30 M $ budget, with top european ones 5 M $ in the 90ies those differences grew and while NBA's revenues consist of probably 95% revenue earned through market, I'd be surprised, with 2-3 exceptions and euro top club gets to 50%.
    It's all about creating the revenue, not overall budgets. And that's something european basketball managed to screw up by themselves.

    Everybody are saying that european basketball can't be compared to football, however the differences were notably smaller 3 decades ago. Football grew, basketball stubournly does it all to stay the same. As UEFA's president said (something in the lines of): "if we could buy european basketball as some sort of entity, that would be a great deal, considering all the potential that this sport isn't using..."


    @Stevnsgade, thanks for the interview. I am glad that at least some people are able to recognise the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  11. #1231
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    The absolute disaster for European basketball and national leagues is that Euroleague and Mr President, Bertomeu.Of course Bertomeu will not punish Olympiacos if will compete in second Greek division,even in third or fourth division is a no problem at all for him.In reality he is very happy with what is happening to the national leagues and he will support with every cost the rebels,now and in the future.

    https://www.eurohoops.net/en/eurolea...league-at-all/

  12. #1232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joško Poljak Fan View Post
    Definately. However you can remember the days when NBA teams had something like 30 M $ budget, with top european ones 5 M $ in the 90ies those differences grew and while NBA's revenues consist of probably 95% revenue earned through market, I'd be surprised, with 2-3 exceptions and euro top club gets to 50%.
    It's all about creating the revenue, not overall budgets. And that's something european basketball managed to screw up by themselves.

    Everybody are saying that european basketball can't be compared to football, however the differences were notably smaller 3 decades ago. Football grew, basketball stubournly does it all to stay the same. As UEFA's president said (something in the lines of): "if we could buy european basketball as some sort of entity, that would be a great deal, considering all the potential that this sport isn't using..."
    I am at awe how all of you are so pessimistic. I'm somewhat pessimistic right now, with recent IMG takeover and the way Jordi&Co's traditional swindle, corruption and fraud got totally out of hand as of lately. But still I do remember European basketball in the 90s. And, for me, it was a far, far cry from what we have now. I'm slightly nostalgic about it because there was something naive and fresh back then. And also that was a time when I fell in love with this game. But still back then random Murcans come to Europe and score 20+ for top clubs, a mediocre team with four guys playing 35+ minutes per game could won it all and as a whole basketball was much more amateurish, much less tactical, much less nuanced, much more sluggish, much more random and, to tell you the whole truth, much more plain and even stupid. Generally, what is needed from a player to prosper on the level of the best European national leagues in terms of his abilities changed dramatically. And this change was a steep upwards one. European basketball progressed an awful lot since 90s, even since early 2000s.

    And, hell no, NBA doesn't steal "all the European quality". There is a great degree of randomness about who will prosper in NBA and who won't but NBA generally steals individually gifted players who don't feel themselves as comfortable in tactically-minded European basketball. I mean, someone like Fournier or Schroeder are great examples to that. Well, both would be successful in Europe on a sheer offensive firepower factor but, most probably, not as much as their NBA stats should suggest. And the whole "those who play in NBA are the best Euro players" bullshit needs a serious reality check. Yes, some of the best European players, whose style is suitable towards typical continental style, are playing in NBA right now with no realistic prospects about getting back in a near future (for instance, guys like Marc Gasol, Nikola Jokic or Bogdan Bogdanovic) but there are countless examples of players whose style ain't fit for our standards (the "other" Bogdanovic, for example, or laughable clown Bricky, or someone like Gortat, or M-me Ilyasova or the ultimate retard Bellinelli) or, even worse, of those who are just mediocre (for example, aside from Shroeder, German "legion" in NBA consist of lumberjack Dani Theis and totally lacklustre "jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none" Maxi Kleber - there are many, many dozens of better players in Europe, even including some German ones). Continuing to talk about Germans, only recently Paul Zipser (a poor man's Kleber) also played in NBA and a couple of years ago it seemed that his future there is bright. Now he's back in Europe. Did you all even noticed that?

    On the contrary, often it is the best international players who either fail in NBA (Spanoulis, de Colo, Tavares, Nedovic, the list goes on and on) or even never go there (like Llull, Tomic, Printezis and many other drafted but less revered quality players, I mean, all those Koponens and Dubljevics). This deification of NBA and anyone who play there is an indication of some slave-like mentality when bowing to the master is a constant paradigm which should not be questioned.

    I suppose that the main problems of European basketball lie in the way it is overrun with strife, incompetent, corrupt organization (especially from IMG/Jordi unholy alliance) and totally disastrous methods of presenting itself to the world. The talent is here, the problem is not in the lack of it but in the way competitions these talented ballers play in are organized and presented, especially the international ones which should serve as cream of the crop a la football Champions League.

    Talking about "profitable football", I have a great degree of doubt about financial stats which says that a team paying tens of millions each year only for transfers is really profitable. Probably there is some shadowy financial accounting involved. And on a level lower than those "grands" we generally see financially lossmaking endeavors.

    P.S. I watch a lot of basketball and maybe I have a different definition of talent (maybe, it's only Curry, Durant, Harden and LBJ who are talented and all the others are not) but, from my point of view, right now only NCAA produces something like 150-200 players of remarkably high quality each year. And maybe Europe generates slightly less but still we are talking about dozens of players each year (many of these talented players don't bloom like they should but that's another question). The level of players in Bundesliga or LNB (both of which I watch a lot) is surprisingly high and even some Belgian league definitely has some quality among its ranks. Moreover, there is no big difference between someone like Jonathon Simmons who is successful in NBA and some of the American guys who shred somewhere in the Finnish league. Just look at PJ Tucker's career path and you'll see that sticking in NBA is very often just a matter of luck (the way they play in NBA, "unluck" suits more but we shouldn't forget about the salaries paid there) and good timing.
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  13. #1233
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    I don’t know why I haven’t commented on this before, but in my opinion it is a huge blow that Virtus Bologna as the reigning champion of the Champions League have decided to play in the Eurocup. I would have been able to understand (though I wouldn’t have agreed) if they had been given a wildcard to the Euroleague, but I cannot understand why they want to play in Jordi2? The money is worse and so is the attending (that crowd in Belgium for F4 was amazing!!).

    Anyway, huge win in my opinion for the Euroleague organisation. Since they are able to get Virtus to switch, they must do something right.

    Here is an article from Sportanso about how the Italian federation sees Virtus’ switch.

    https://sportando.basketball/en/fip-...ketball-world/

  14. #1234
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    I don't see anything surprising here. Better league, better teams, chance to qualify to EL, I'm not a Jordi fan, but his organization looks simply more professional, while FIBA tries to move forward, but basically is still stuck in 20th century and all that can offer is a bit more money. So IMO it was basically a matter of time when Italian top teams would have courage to change position and go against federation. Btw it's not only Virtus, but Venezia, which is one of the best Italian clubs lately, current finalists of Lega and 2017 champs, also plans to leave BCL and move to EC


  15. #1235
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    It's called Stockholm syndrome

  16. #1236
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    Pos Team Total High Low Average Change
    1 Lithuania Žalgiris 221,048 15,205 13,569 14,737 +8.7%
    2 Greece Panathinaikos OPAP 168,979 18,003 7,487 12,070 −7.2%
    3 Spain Kirolbet Baskonia 164,266 12,657 9,743 10,951 −3.5%
    4 Israel Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv 157,826 11,060 9,476 10,522 −1.9%
    5 Turkey Fenerbahçe Beko 146,959 12,821 7,380 10,497 −9.2%
    6 Spain Real Madrid 137,110 12,749 7,328 9,794 −2.4%
    7 Italy AX Armani Exchange Olimpia 127,778 12,227 6,343 8,519 +14.0%2
    8 Greece Olympiacos 118,379 11,107 5,846 8,456 −5.1%
    9 Russia CSKA Moscow 103,168 12,341 4,473 7,369 −10.3%
    10 Turkey Anadolu Efes 97,232 14,258 3,153 6,945 +78.1%
    11 Spain FC Barcelona Lassa 79,729 7,311 4,372 5,695 +0.3%
    12 Russia Khimki 82,529 7,151 3,259 5,502 −8.6%
    13 Spain Herbalife Gran Canaria 72,348 7,430 3,648 4,823 +18.9%1
    14 Montenegro Budućnost VOLI 71,877 5,260 4,081 4,792 +67.2%1
    15 Germany Bayern Munich 61,196 5,809 3,259 4,371 −20.0%1
    16 Turkey Darüşşafaka Tekfen 40,370 4,204 1,011 2,691 +3.1%1
    League total 1,850,794 18,003 1,011 7,978 −9.1%

    you can find it here.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E...319_EuroLeague
    Reverse Angle --> If we look at the list from a crowd utilization perspective. (I dont know the full capacities, so I used average crowd as a percentage of maximum crowd)

    1. Zalgiris @ 97%
    2. Maccabi @ 95%
    3. Buducnost @ 91%
    4. Baskonia @ 87%
    5. Fenerbahçe @ 82%
    6. Barcelona @ 78%
    7. Khimki & Real @ 77%
    9. Olympiakos @ 76%
    10. Bayern @ 75%
    11. Armani @ 70%
    12. Pao @ 67%
    13. Gran Canaria @ 65%
    14. Dacka @ 64%
    15. Cska @ 60%
    16. Efes @ 49%

  17. #1237
    Senior Member Efesdxb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Reverse Angle --> If we look at the list from a crowd utilization perspective. (I dont know the full capacities, so I used average crowd as a percentage of maximum crowd)

    1. Zalgiris @ 97%
    2. Maccabi @ 95%
    3. Buducnost @ 91%
    4. Baskonia @ 87%
    5. Fenerbahçe @ 82%
    6. Barcelona @ 78%
    7. Khimki & Real @ 77%
    9. Olympiakos @ 76%
    10. Bayern @ 75%
    11. Armani @ 70%
    12. Pao @ 67%
    13. Gran Canaria @ 65%
    14. Dacka @ 64%
    15. Cska @ 60%
    16. Efes @ 49%
    Efes didn't sell tickets for upper tiers of the arena for most part of the season. On regular season they sold these tickets for Real Madrid, Olympiacos, CSKA and Barcelona games. Later play off it was almost sold out for every game. Therefore %49 is not a realistic number.
    Go Efes Pilsen - Go Turkey

  18. #1238
    Senior Member Cuneyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Efesdxb View Post
    Efes didn't sell tickets for upper tiers of the arena for most part of the season. On regular season they sold these tickets for Real Madrid, Olympiacos, CSKA and Barcelona games. Later play off it was almost sold out for every game. Therefore %49 is not a realistic number.
    Dear Efesdxb,

    I simply offered another angle. It was not an attempt to undermine Efes, Cska, Pao etc.
    It is a bit unfair especially for Pao with an 18000 capacity arena, BUT they have filled it a few times and when they do fill it, it positively impacts average crowds.
    So the negative must come with the positive.
    In any case, kudos to Zalgiris and Maccabi for having a large arena and a high percentage to fill it.

  19. #1239
    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuneyt View Post
    Reverse Angle --> If we look at the list from a crowd utilization perspective. (I dont know the full capacities, so I used average crowd as a percentage of maximum crowd)

    1. Zalgiris @ 97%
    2. Maccabi @ 95%
    Žalgiris and Maccabi will probably always be a 90+%.
    at the end the average attendance for entire 2018/2019 season is 5.7% lower then in 2017/2018 season and 1.8% lower then in 2016/2017 season.
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

  20. #1240
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Picek View Post
    Žalgiris and Maccabi will probably always be a 90+%.
    at the end the average attendance for entire 2018/2019 season is 5.7% lower then in 2017/2018 season and 1.8% lower then in 2016/2017 season.
    It depends on teams which are playing, when you have Dacka, Buducnost, Gran Canaria, Bayern as newcomers instead of Valencia, Unicaja, Bamberg, Crvena Zvezda, obviously that attendance will go down. But if you'll take only 11 licensed clubs, average attendance is going up bit by bit. One season one club increases it, others goes down and vice versa, depends on results. Now with Zvezda back, with Alba, Valencia there too, with Asvel usually having close to full arena in Eurocup overall attendance should go up either and we still have one incognito club


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