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Thread: Lithuania to bounce back?

  1. #121

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    Let's speculate a little bit on upcoming decades' best scenario for Lith NT:

    - Sirvydis pans out to a role NBA player and a star scorer for the NT. ESPN puts him at 33 2019 drafts.
    - Ignas Bradeikis becomes a solid NBA role player and decides to play for Lith NT. He's ranked among 25-30 picks of 2019 drafts usually.
    - Marciulionis evolves into a beast. I won't speculate on his upside, would it be Euroleague or even NBA, but I see him as star potential PG in terms of NT standards.
    - Jokubaitis will turn into fine PG, becoming a creative force for the NT.
    - Sedekerskis will find ways to catch up his upside. IMO, he still can be one of the keys in upcoming decade. His Youth NT performance was dominant and he looked like the next big thing after Domas. He has been struggling as a PRO (even though showed some glimpses of greatness in LKL), but he can potentially be the best defensive forward and a hardworker of NT, IMO. His Youth performance was more impressive than Maciulis and Ulanovas in the comparison.
    - Talented 20yo wings in Jogela and Kulboka will develop into good players.
    - M. Kancleris will develop into a beast PF.
    - Blazevic become the best big after Sabonis.

    Here's how I would like turning a next page with 2021 EB:

    PG Lekavicius (27), Jokubaitis (21)
    SG Grigonis (27), Sirvydis (21), Jogela (23) (or Giedraitis 29)
    SF Ulanovas (29), Bradeikis (23), Sedekerskis (23)
    PF Sabonis (25), Motiejunas (31) Kuzminskas (31)
    C Valanciunas (29), Gudaitis (28)

    That would be a nicely balanced team with some young and great veteran players. Very well balanced. Sure, we might want to incorporate one pure guard at section 2 if some stud will prevail as all of SGs here are wings, but overall I think this team would be roaring with potential compared to what we had in the mid of 10's. Interesting fact, marked players are lefties, so this would be a lefties team, harder to guard probably. Also I would probably see Kulboka at 4 with his 208cm. Deadly stretch 4 with improved body.

    And here's how I see the peak of the next decade (at the moment) at 2025. Wild guess though:

    Marciulionis, Jokubaitis
    Sirvydis, Grigonis 31, Jogela
    Brazdeikis, Sedekerskis
    Kancleris, Kulboka, (unknown yet)
    Sabonis 30, Valanciunas 34 (or Blazevic 24)

    I see 5-6 players with legit NBA potential (marked) and three with borderline NBA potential (Sedekerskis, Jogela, Kulboka).

    Would some-one disagree that we are getting closer to next decade with much bigger upside compared to the previous decade (around 2009)?

    Back than we seen Janavicius, Gecevicius, Vasiliauskas (Seibutis, Pocius, Kalnietis already were 22-23yo already so they kinda fall out, much like now we don't really see Lekavicius and Grigonis, or Sabonis as prospects anymore) as strong prospects (so not even a smell of NBA basically), than some hopes on Ulanovas, Cizauskas, while the only real free studs where JV, D-Mo, Kuzminskas. OK, JV and D-Mo looked like huge trump cards back than and JV pan out to expectations pretty much, D-Mo failed.

    I really believe that Sabonis + bunch of the prospects with the shadow of NBA (+extremely talented backourt prospects in Sirvydis, Marciulionis and Jokubaitis) will be the better generation. And overall our talent pool will improve. Since the next decade I pretty much see an all EL quality team. We won't have Eurocup level fillers most likely, IMO.

    In my opinion we will have a very good chances to go far high goals in 2021- 2016 period and probably later on. I predict that 2024 Olympics will be the first Olympics when we will be back on track since 2008, that is being a legitimate contenders.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 02-05-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Let's speculate a little bit on upcoming decades' best scenario for Lith NT:

    - Sirvydis pans out to a role NBA player and a star scorer for the NT. ESPN puts him at 33 2019 drafts.
    - Ignas Bradeikis becomes a solid NBA role player and decides to play for Lith NT. He's ranked among 25-30 picks of 2019 drafts usually.
    - Marciulionis evolves into a beast. I won't speculate on his upside, would it be Euroleague or even NBA, but I see him as star potential PG in terms of NT standards.
    - Jokubaitis will turn into fine PG, becoming a creative force for the NT.
    - Sedekerskis will find ways to catch up his upside. IMO, he still can be one of the keys in upcoming decade. His Youth NT performance was dominant and he looked like the next big thing after Domas. He has been struggling as a PRO (even though showed some glimpses of greatness in LKL), but he can potentially be the best defensive forward and a hardworker of NT, IMO. His Youth performance was more impressive than Maciulis and Ulanovas in the comparison.
    - Talented 20yo wings in Jogela and Kulboka will develop into good players.
    - M. Kancleris will develop into a beast PF.
    - Blazevic become the best big after Sabonis.


    In my opinion we will have a very good chances to go far high goals in 2021- 2026 period and probably later on.
    Well I hope you're right. But there's many a slip twixt cup and lip.


  3. #123
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    stf you missing one very important point in 2009.There were very hard nose,strong character type 85 generation players were upcoming ( they were 23-24 at that time) and becoming real profesionals that our nt team was holding on for next 6-7 years till 2016...2009 we had Valanciunas,Motiejunas,Kuzminskas prospects +85 golden medal generation with leader Kleiza ( all under 25)...I dont see big upgrade in 2021 in your prospects.

    85 Generation Kleiza,Maciulis,Jankunas,Kalnietis,Seibutis,Pocius and to lesser degree Kavaliauskas was key contributers what we got in 2009-2016 years.

    In that 7 year run by that group leading our nt team made 4 semifinals and won 3 medals.That will not be so easy to repeat .In 2010-2016 we always were in top8.Maybe they werent most tallented group,but they had true fight and winners mentality in them starting from youth competions.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 02-09-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    stf you missing one very important point in 2009.There were very hard nose,strong character type 85 generation players were upcoming ( they were 23-24 at that time) and becoming real profesionals that our nt team was holding on for next 6-7 years till 2016...2009 we had Valanciunas,Motiejunas,Kuzminskas prospects +85 golden medal generation with leader Kleiza ( all under 25)...I dont see big upgrade in 2021 in your prospects.

    85 Generation Kleiza,Maciulis,Jankunas,Kalnietis,Seibutis,Pocius and to lesser degree Kavaliauskas was key contributers what we got in 2009-2016 years.

    In that 7 year run by that group leading our nt team made 4 semifinals and won 3 medals.That will not be so easy to repeat .In 2010-2016 we always were in top8.Maybe they werent most tallented group,but they had true fight and winners mentality in them starting from youth competions.
    Look, I have a huge respect to "85" generation as you say. I think they were super pros, super united, super team, system players and I thank them a lot. Yet, your mentioned generation - Kleiza, Kalnietis, Maciulis, Seibutis, jankunas, Pocius is the the weakest generation since 1992. It sounds harsh knowing how much they done and how cool people they are, but that's true. We had Sabas/Marciulionis generation in 90's, we had Saras/Siska generation in 00's and we had Kalnietis/Maciulis generation in 10s (Kleiza was big only in 2010 as an absolute leader and I think Maciulis had even bigger impact overall in 10's). That's three major generations and the latter is by far the weakest. Now you say we won three medals and so on, but it was in second tier tournaments. 2010WC was weak, declining Argentina, young Serbia, Pauless Spain and so on...2013 was a weak Eurobasket and a perfect draw for us (besides we almost blew it in the group stage). We manhandled unpredictable and shaky Italy and semi-talented young Croatia to get to the finals and got badly schooled by France in finals. 2015EB was hero time Eurobasket, it was a strong Eurobasket, but we needed a miracle from Maciulis in 16finals against Georgia. Surely the win against Serbia in semis was sensational and historical, but we again got badly swept in finals against Spain. Our Olympic performance in 2012 was nearly shameful, and it was indeed shameful in 2016. So despite team coherence and medals in second rate tournaments, we witnessed the saddest days of Lithuanian basketball. In terms of medals we won't get much of them next decade because the system is different now, but I have little doubt we will ripen more talented and superior generation than Kalnietis/Maciulis generation.
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  5. #125
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    1985 generation was so bigly weak, you could tell them apart from 1986 generation

  6. #126
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Look, I have a huge respect to "85" generation as you say. I think they were super pros, super united, super team, system players and I thank them a lot. Yet, your mentioned generation - Kleiza, Kalnietis, Maciulis, Seibutis, jankunas, Pocius is the the weakest generation since 1992. It sounds harsh knowing how much they done and how cool people they are, but that's true. We had Sabas/Marciulionis generation in 90's, we had Saras/Siska generation in 00's and we had Kalnietis/Maciulis generation in 10s (Kleiza was big only in 2010 as an absolute leader and I think Maciulis had even bigger impact overall in 10's). That's three major generations and the latter is by far the weakest. Now you say we won three medals and so on, but it was in second tier tournaments. 2010WC was weak, declining Argentina, young Serbia, Pauless Spain and so on...2013 was a weak Eurobasket and a perfect draw for us (besides we almost blew it in the group stage). We manhandled unpredictable and shaky Italy and semi-talented young Croatia to get to the finals and got badly schooled by France in finals. 2015EB was hero time Eurobasket, it was a strong Eurobasket, but we needed a miracle from Maciulis in 16finals against Georgia. Surely the win against Serbia in semis was sensational and historical, but we again got badly swept in finals against Spain. Our Olympic performance in 2012 was nearly shameful, and it was indeed shameful in 2016. So despite team coherence and medals in second rate tournaments, we witnessed the saddest days of Lithuanian basketball. In terms of medals we won't get much of them next decade because the system is different now, but I have little doubt we will ripen more talented and superior generation than Kalnietis/Maciulis generation.
    Tallent wise maybe they were weakest one generation (because we need to compare them to star loaded generation).That you want to believe that 20s generation will be better,that doesnt mean it will be like that.10s didnt have superstars (Kleiza was very close to that and stop erasing him from 85gen,he was still very good in 2012,2013 compared to 95% of our players).But do not mentione them in 2009 observation is ridiculous that was my point.Without them no medals what so ever .Im saying that next generation can be even weaker,atleast that what i see on paper.I dont see true winners even i youth competions now.That generation 85 compensated lack of tallent with others things,good luck atleast repeat what they did.Nobody cares now what situations was in tournamnets back then, when you look now from history stands point results is most important thing .1985 leaded team was in elite period.

    I dont care how lucky you got,to win playoofs game after game (year after year) you have to be mentaly really strong ,just tallent wont save you everytime without character and heart.

    in 90s 3 semifinals,3 medals
    in 00s 5 semifinals,3 medals
    in 10s 4 semifinals,3 medals and 2019 championship left to play

    i dont see big diffrence between those 3 generations you compared results wise

    you can remember 1985 generation as luckiest ever,i will remember them as generation with biggest balls and biggest hearts.2015 playoofs run is my favorite from this generation that shown all the best sides of that group.

    If luck is repeating over and over again it this really just luck or some other things hiding behind that ?
    Last edited by Shawshank; 02-10-2019 at 07:27 PM.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    in 90s 3 semifinals,3 medals
    in 00s 5 semifinals,3 medals
    in 10s 4 semifinals,3 medals and 2019 championship left to play
    The quality of these medals differ highly (besides 90's for us started in 92 and it's unfair because we could rock in 90 and 91). We sucked in Olympics in 10's, 2 horrible performances and that clearly shows we simply were not the part of elite in 10s.
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  8. #128
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    So in light of this past weekend's LKL action, have both Rytas and Neptūnas jelled as teams and gotten their games together just in time for the quarterfinals in their respective European leagues? How do their chances for victory in the quarters look?

    Last edited by Hepcat; 03-04-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    The quality of these medals differ highly (besides 90's for us started in 92 and it's unfair because we could rock in 90 and 91). We sucked in Olympics in 10's, 2 horrible performances and that clearly shows we simply were not the part of elite in 10s.
    Clearly not elite? You don't understand what is elite... Or you ranking elite as only medalist... Because for me elite is top 5-6 that all decade were near medal or won medals.

    I see only 4 teams that arguably did better than Lithuania in 10s and thats my friend is elite world team that was 5th team. Results is same as in other decades, but you are trying so hard and still cand find seriuos arguments...

    All decades had fiasco 1993 and 2001 happend you liked or not with marciulionis and jasikevicius teams... Bad tournaments is part of the sport.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 03-04-2019 at 02:04 PM.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Clearly not elite? You don't understand what is elite... Or you ranking elite as only medalist... Because for me elite is top 5-6 that all decade were near medal or won medals.

    I see only 4 teams that arguably did better than Lithuania in 10s and thats my friend is elite world team that was 5th team. Results is same as in other decades, but you are trying so hard and still cand find seriuos arguments...

    All decades had fiasco 1993 and 2001 happend you liked or not with marciulionis and jasikevicius teams... Bad tournaments is part of the sport.
    I mean, you're seriously going to pretend that our NT was at the same level in 90's, 00's and 10's? For me, it's more than obvious, in 90's and 10's we could get into the Olympic semifinals (and even grab bronze models) and in 10's we couldn't. That has nothing to do with fiasco. 10's teams where simply too weak to do that in 2012 and 2016. And it's not like we lacked some bunch of key players. We were going with full rosters.

    2 major and most important tournaments in 10's were Olympic games in 2012 and 2016. We finished at 8th spot and 7th. That wasn't a fluke, we didn't have more talented teams than teams above us.

    How how the heck you decided that elite is exactly 5-6 teams? Why not than say 7-8, or 8-10? Being among top 4 teams is elite, IMO.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 03-04-2019 at 03:05 PM.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    I mean, you're seriously going to pretend that our NT was at the same level in 90's, 00's and 10's? For me, it's more than obvious, in 90's and 10's we could get into the Olympic semifinals (and even grab bronze models) and in 10's we couldn't. That has nothing to do with fiasco. 10's teams where simply too weak to do that in 2012 and 2016. And it's not like we lacked some bunch of key players. We were going with full rosters.

    2 major and most important tournaments in 10's were Olympic games in 2012 and 2016. We finished at 8th spot and 7th. That wasn't a fluke, we didn't have more talented teams than teams above us.
    It's interesting how time changed your view on our achievements in these tournaments


  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    It's interesting how time changed your view on our achievements in these tournaments
    View changes, basketball understanding changes. In 2012 I was thinking Kemzura made mistakes roster wise, I was thinking Kemzura had to go with young team like in 2010. Now I don't have any criticism to Kemzura and generally Kazlauskas also (even if he made it bunch of smaller and bigger mistakes in 2016 season). At the end of the day, we simply didn't have elite teams in those Olympic cycles...
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  13. #133

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    What's with all lefties coming up all of the sudden? Look at this "hypothetical" team:

    Lekavicius, Jokubautis (janavicius)
    Sirvydis, Jarumbauskas
    Ulanovas, Brazdeikis (...),
    Sabonis, (Motiejunas, Jankunas)
    Birutis, Tubelis

    Did we ever had so many quality young and established lefties?
    Last edited by Straight forward; 03-13-2019 at 01:13 PM.
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  14. #134
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    So Žalgiris I see is still hanging on for dear life in the hunt for a Euroleague playoff position.


  15. #135

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    Aside few wins we got in 10's, let's compare 10's with 00's in terms of NBA players (at least once stepped into the court, OK, aside Andriuskevicius):

    00's Sabonis, Ilgauskas, Songaila, Kleiza, Jasikavicius, Macijauskas, Praskevicius

    10's Valanciunas, Kuzminskas, Sabonis

    Now elite EL's players:

    00's Siskauskas, Stombergas

    10's ...none

    If there's some poster who think out basketball hasn't badly declined he is absolutely delusional. It has been a shitty decade to sum up. I have little doubt that we should have much better next decade. I mean we can't be so super mediocre in terms of individual talent. It has been deserts basically...Even now we have only 2 true world class players in JV and Sabonis and I think we sort of on a rise compared to 2013-2017. Realisticly in 2013 we didn't have single world class player. Crippled Kleiza was dropping 11pts with crappy shooting % (The fact that we got that year to the final is pretty ridiculous).

    I think that's the time of crisis, we should speak openly. Luckily I see us rising. But seriously Špokas should quite joking talking about Lithuanian Youth basketball being a No.1 in FIBA ranking. They are, but who pan out into NT material since 2013? Grigonis, Lekavicius and Sabonis? OK, one world class player in 6 years? Our individual talent development is crappy, out coaching is crappy and Špokas should stop dreaming. The stretch he has been ruling federation was the most crappy in the Lith basketball history since 1992. We should be looking to new federation after 2020, IMO. There should be rotation. 7 years is enough.
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  16. #136
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    You know it's easier to find young tallent in 3,7mil people instead of 2,8mln and decreasing.

    How it looks now this generation of 20s will be lucky if they will achieve what NT did in 2010-2015 - 3 medals 4 semifinal performance's that was fantastic years results wise + 2 very close 1/4 looses those games could go either way.

    Which 5- years streach results wise was better for ltu NT ? Even in those years we didn't win,our team was very close.

    Stop complaining about tallent,but start respect what our players achieve in 10s with not the best tallent.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    You know it's easier to find young tallent in 3,7mil people instead of 2,8mln and decreasing.

    How it looks now this generation of 20s will be lucky if they will achieve what NT did in 2010-2015 - 3 medals 4 semifinal performance's that was fantastic years results wise + 2 very close 1/4 looses those games could go either way.Which 5- years streach results wise was better for ltu NT ?

    Stop complaining about tallent,but start respect what our players achieve in 10s with not the best tallent.
    Medals is not what only counts. Basically I would even say I don't give a f...about medals if I have to pick between medals and performance level. I mean you would ever literally compare our 2004 team with freakin' 2013 or 2015? I mean, come shawn, I know you have that fetish on your 83 or whatever generation, but medals don't say all story. The only true big time victory that I could recall this mediocre generation achieved was beating Serbia in the semifinal 2015. That was absolutely elite win against elite opponent! (even if now Serbia is even at another level). Other than that 2010 was B level tournament, our knock out stage opponents in 2013 was pretty much a joke. Our team was badly swept in both finals 2013 and 2015 which was pretty shameful to be honest. And most importantly failed in both Olympic games in 10s so you can save your glory stories of 10's for kids...

    When we'll get to the semis again in the OG, I will say we're good. Now you're telling me the same fairy tale over and over again. We sucked in 10's compared to 90's and 00's, period. Nothing less than that. We might suck in 20's as well, but surely not the medals will decide that (different system, basically no B level tournaments as well). I take 2012 and 2016 Olympic games at the level of 2000 or 2004, or even 2008 for all the medals we got in 10's. It's the ultimate stage, it's the elite stage and if we balling there, we are balling for real. Also we never been swept in the EB final in 90s and 00's, never! And we got that glory 2 times in 10s and Spaniards trashed us by freakin' 40pts in OGs, it was more shameful than us trashing Greece in their home in 2004. You can praise few overachievements, or you can point it out at most important A tournaments. I go with the latter.
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  18. #138
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    That Spanish team from 06-16 would beat any Lithuanian team from any era.Only USA can beat that team.

    I don't give a shit about performance in playing style if we lose,it's not beauty contest who plays more beautiful,it's sport you need to win that's what counts period!


    We played more beautifull in 2017 than in Kazlauskas years, but who cares if he didn't have balls to win playoofs game againts weaker team ? Answer Nobody.

    Nobody will give rat ass about 2004 or 1999 teams that lost playoffs game to weaker teams...people remember winning teams.

    In 2010-2016 we lost only one playoofs game againts weaker team and beat bunch of them in those years.

    That shows me that group of people come to play hard everyday most if the decade you can't buy that and you can't teach that ,you have it or you don't.


    I will not listen to your tastefull basketball bullshit and try to picture that our NT 10s as some kind of nobodies...no those people won multiple medals on highest level because they were really good !

    It's not shamefull to lose to better team in finals,its way more worse lose 1/4 or 1/2 to weaker team and underachieve...

    Praskevicius in NBA? He didn't even played a single game there and yeah he was in preparation but in 90s nba...

    Kleiza also played in 10s

    That one leg Kleiza averaged 14 pts in Olympic games 2012, put two 20 pts performance in both semifinal and final eurobasket 2013

    When Grigonis puts 7 pts in 1/8 EuroBasket game and fauls out in 20min you praised him like best ltu player in that game interesting standarts

    For you it's seems basketball it's just tallent all what it counts, but exactly those 10s teams proved you it's not only that.There is strong character,champions heart ,togetherness and big balls that can overcome pure tallent in most cases.

    If you want to play ale that beautifull basketball you must have pg and sg world class level like Slovenia did.

    What we will have in pg and sg positions after Tokyo Grigonis and bunch of uleb level guards.

    Repeating sport is about winning,not who plays tastefull basketball...) If we will need to play slowly like in 90s with all those bigs we have and win games 62-60 .I don't care it what style it is done, until it's working and gives LTU NT best chance to win it's fine to me.

    Those teams 10s had their style and it really worked and they have medals to show to prove that.That is not tastefull for you eyes, that is your problem.
    Last edited by Shawshank; 08-20-2019 at 03:39 AM.

  19. #139
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    SKY IS FALLING
    it's raindrops
    In what form sky is falling is not what only counts

  20. #140

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    You making mistakes thinking it's not about wins to me. I'm all about the wins. In 2004 we trashed elite Greece, we took down freakin' USA, we beat PR which took down USA and was balling big time, we trashed Australia, we contested USA in the small finals till last minutes. That's why people remember 2004 and actually they are damn more high, like it's not even close, on 2004 than on 2013 or 2015. It's a bit different you know that struggling in the group big time and than beating non-elite teams in QF and SF. The only elite win was against Serbia in 2015 in entire decade thus far (maybe beating Argentina in 2010 was also basically elite, but Argentina was depleted, just as Spain as well). Were you miss the point that we were rolling over absolute elite teams in 2000, we even almost managed to take down very talented USA team in semis, and we beat the crap of Serbia and already great Spain in 2003. If you don't feel the difference and you think i'm talking only about beauty of BB, I won't hire you a teacher, sorry.

    One moment you jump on talent, other you claim we are fucked up with only Grigonis, one man standing after OG So you're good with less talent emphasizing team and fighting spirit, or you complain that we will have even less talent in the future? Be straight with your points. BTW, Lekavicius is EL material. If you can't deal with that, go and tell fairy tales how he's "uleb" level player to some-one else. Jasikevičius picked Lekavičius to play in his TOP 10 Euroleague club and he already proved he can ball, being one of the most efficient role PGs in entire EL playing for Zalgiris. Just stick with facts. Slow down with your interpretations. Even if we stick with facts, Jokubaitis is playing in EL already. For a 18yo it's pretty nice. Be it 6 minutes in the court, none of our best guards had such luxury. You're not good projecting prospects, you even said Marciulionis will be as scrub and failure as Tautvydas Sabonis, I mean you can't get worse at evaluating players than that.

    Speaking about facts, yes, Kleiza played in 10s in NBA, I missed that, but also it was pretty much one meaningless season or so (in 3 seaosn in 10's, Kleiza played 110 games, it's like 1,4 season, he was collapsing after that injury in 2010). And maybe we can cut Praskevicius, I'm to lazy to chuck this, he was no big deal anyway. But the fact is we really struggled to develop standouts in 10's. I have little doubt we'll have more stand-outs overall in 20's, potentially much more. Have in mind that basically only JV is a true world class standout in 10's. Kleiza fall out early in 10's. That's all. Sabonis is more of 20's players, he's just warming up.

    And lastly. I always supported NT, hell or high water, just don't put on this sentimental bullshit here. If I say our BB level dropped and we sucked compared to 90's and 00's, it's a fact, deal with it. It absolutely doesn't have anything to do with being disrespectful to 10's players. Do I disrespect Kalnietis, when I say Jasikevicius or Marciulionis was better than him? Cut the sentimental bullsh...
    Last edited by Straight forward; 08-20-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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