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Thread: All time NT

  1. #141
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    If we are choosing best lithuanian national team players of all time Kalnietis should be higher than Chomicius no doubt.But as player individually Chomicius in his prime or Kalnietis is his prime i have to say i would choose Chomicius.But saying that how Mantas ir playing for our national team i would find a place for him in top 12 players of all time.Something with Mantas and NT ,when he is with Lietuva jersey he is playing basketball as one of the best pg in entire Europe.And it happend not once,not twice so he would have my vote in making all time LTU nt team over Chomicius.Mantas would be my backup up PG.

    But in clubs competions Valdemaras was better player and fantastic defender,maybe even the best lithuanias perimeter defender of all time.
    These criterias are really hard to measure. I mean some players made little impact in national team like such, but some made huge impact on our basketball overall, but never really had a chance to play for NT due to occupation or played very little. The same Modestas Paulauskas was one of the best players of his generation, had NBA offer in 19-20yo. Then we had Stepas Butautas, another legendary player, who was huge in his time, leader of Soviet NT. Both of them made huge impact on our basketball overall, were idols of upcoming generation, lot of kids started to play bball thnx to them, also both coached. Before WWII we had players like Feliksas Kriauciunas, who not only was among the best players in Europe during his days, twice European champ, even coach of 1937 NT, but he made so much for our bball to be alive at all. He was one of the pioneers of bball in our country. The same legendary Pranas Lubinas came later. Judging on how good they were during their playin' time, all of them should be easily in our all-time roster. But again, it's hard to evaluate the talent, while game itself made enormous step forward, so current generation has huge advantage here


  2. #142
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Games
    1 1 Jasikevicius
    2 2 Javtokas
    4 3 Maciulis
    3 4 Ksystof
    8 5 Kalnietis
    15 13 Valanciunas
    23 20 Kuzminskas

    Minutes
    1 1 Jasikevicius
    2 2 Kalnietis
    7 3 Maciulis
    3 4 Stombergas
    4 5 Karnisovas
    15 11 Valanciunas
    28 24 Kuzmisnkas

    Points
    1 1 Jasikevicius
    2 2 Karnisovas
    5 3 Kalnietis
    3 4 Kleiza
    4 5 Stombergas
    11 8 Valanciunas
    10 10 Maciulis
    26 24 Kuzminskas

    Rebounds
    4 1 Valanciunas
    1 2 A.Sabonis
    2 3 Kleiza
    3 4 Javtokas
    5 5 Ksystof
    11 8 Maciulis
    18 18 Kuzminskas

    Assists
    1 1 Jasikevicius
    2 2 Kalnietis
    3 3 Marciulionis
    4 4 Karnisovas
    5 5 Siskauskas
    9 8 Maciulis

    Steals
    2 1 Maciulis
    1 2 Jasikevicius
    3 3 Siskauskas
    4 4 Stombergas
    5 5 Karnisovas
    41 11 9 Kalnietis
    22 28 22 Valanciunas

    3pointers made
    1 1 Jasikevicius
    2 2 Jasaitis
    3 3 Siskauskas
    4 4 Kalnietis
    6 5 Kalnietis
    23 18 Kuzminskas
    24 21 Juskevicius

  3. #143
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    2p% (need to be in top half (36 out of 73) among all players in attempts)
    1 66.7 Adomaitis
    2 61.5 Petravicius
    3 60.3 Valanciunas
    4 59.6 Macijauskas
    5 59.5 Karnisovas
    (all time % 52.9)
    34 43.6 D.Sabonis
    35 42.5 Maciulis
    36 41.6 Lukminas

    3p% (37/73)
    1 48.4 Kaukenas
    2 48.2 Juskevicius
    3 46.8 Darjus
    4 45.3 Macijauskas
    5 44.8 Jasaitis
    (all time % 37.5)
    35 27.0 Motiejunas
    36 23.8 Gustas
    37 16.1 Grigonis

    1p% (37/73)
    1 86.9 Macijauskas
    2 86.3 Seibutis
    3 85.9 Songaila
    4 83.3 Jankunas
    5 83.3 Adomaitis
    (all time % 73.8)
    35 E.Zukauskas 53.8
    36 Maskoliunas 50.0
    37 Javtokas 41.3

    "True Shooting" (need to be in top half among all players in points scored)
    1 69.3 Adomaitis
    2 68.0 Macijauskas
    3 66.1 Juskevicius
    4 65.4 Karnisovas
    5 63.6 Valanciunas.
    (all time % 57.2)
    34 51.8 Einikis
    35 49.7 Gustas
    36 46.9 Lukauskis

  4. #144

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    Boy, watching highlights of 1995EB final and that zone defence of Lith was horrible Kurtinaitis was sleeping at D all the time And overall it's hard to imagine such unorganized defence these days, it would just be impossible. BB really progressed in terms of preparation, tactics and discipline.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaUmPukFffU
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  5. #145
    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    The overall play of Team Lietuva and other European teams has improved enormously since the mid-nineties. Not only are players much faster and more athletic these days, but they're far more disciplined and sophisticated defensively.

    Moreover Team Lietuva in particular had very little depth back in the 1992 to 1995 period. There wasn't much help on the bench for the starters. That's why I raised the question in this thread six years ago:

    https://www.interbasket.net/forums/s...m-Lietuva-2012!

    I suspect that only four players from the 1995 team could crack next summer's lineup for the World Championship. Arvydas Sabonis and Šarūnas Marčiulionis would still be part of the starting lineup, with Rimas Kurtinaitis and Artūras Karnišovas being the only other players good enough to crack the present lineup.

    Last edited by Hepcat; 12-10-2018 at 07:15 PM.

  6. #146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hepcat View Post
    I suspect that only four players from the 1995 team could crack next summer's lineup for the World Championship. Arvydas Sabonis and Šarūnas Marčiulionis would still be part of the starting lineup, with Rimas Kurtinaitis and Artūras Karnišovas being the only other players good enough to crack the present lineup.

    Nope. Disagree. Those fellows were badly coached and NT really went for very unorganized zone defence just to keep Sabonis stand in the middle, but overall those teams were waaaaaayyyyyyy more talented than today. Aside those 4 studs you mention there was veteran Chomicius and we already discussed that he may belong to all time NT, than peaking Krapikas wasn't worse player than some Juskevicius for example, he was a good defender, all around player, than young Timinskas and young Einikis. That 1995 EB team was way better than today's team is a no brainer. I mean come on...Marciulionis alone would tear apart all our current backourt with one hand and there's also Kurtinaitis next to him. Now we have Kalnieitis as our best guard? I take 1995EB roster anytime.
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  7. #147

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    Watched 1998 WC USA-Lithuania a little bit and I'm changing my all time NT starting 5. I was surprised how athletic, agile and aggressive Karnisovas was, and how tall and big he was. He surely could play PF today, even in 90's could. At 204cm he had no problem penetrating against USA athletic players. I'm thinking peaking Karnisovas was surely NBA material. Also he was even more explosive scorer than Kleiza, and much more smarter and all around off course. So here's my 5, with all high IQ and versatile players. Best of all time, IMO:

    Jasikevicius
    Marciulionis
    Siskauskas
    Karnisovas
    Sabonis
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  8. #148
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    @Straight Forward

    I saw a lot of Karnishovas in his NCAA days being a Big East fan. He was a phenomenal long range shooter a really good player. The problem was that in the early ‘90’s only the best of the best in European prospects really got a legitimate opportunity to make it in the NBA. So it was a lot harder for him.
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  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    @Straight Forward

    I saw a lot of Karnishovas in his NCAA days being a Big East fan. He was a phenomenal long range shooter a really good player. The problem was that in the early ‘90’s only the best of the best in European prospects really got a legitimate opportunity to make it in the NBA. So it was a lot harder for him.
    Good point. And also he was a bit soft and hated contact as a prospect I read which also influenced leaving him undrafted. But watching prime Karnisovas at 1998, there's a complete player, even physically.
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  10. #150
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usagre View Post
    @Straight Forward

    I saw a lot of Karnishovas in his NCAA days being a Big East fan. He was a phenomenal long range shooter a really good player. The problem was that in the early ‘90’s only the best of the best in European prospects really got a legitimate opportunity to make it in the NBA. So it was a lot harder for him.
    I think I saw his debut with Statyba on TV. The way I remember their uniforms were bright yellow and his face was bright red. Also his head looked disproportionately small compared to long legs and arms. I think he missed dunk. So basically I remember spidery yellow figure with red head hanging on the rim

  11. #151
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Some random stat: Kalnietis now leads NT in minutes played
    Kalnietis 1972
    Saras 1945
    Maciulis 1640
    Stombergas 1532
    Karnisovas 1507

    Kleiza 1459
    Siskauskas 1423
    Jasaitis 1354
    Einikis 1298
    Valanciunas 1270

  12. #152

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    Here's another exercise. Which position is all time deepest and witch shallowest (well, we know that one, lol)? Since 1992.


    PG: Jasikevicius, Kalnietis, Maskoliunas, Lekavicius (Ginevicius, Pacesas, Gustas)

    SG: Marciulionis, Macijauskas, Kurtinaitis, Kaukenas, Seibutis, Grigonis (should I mention Lukminas, Vaisvila, Adomaitis, Slanina, Lukauskis, Jsukevicius, Delininkaitis? Nah, all below Seibutis and Grigonis. Oh, and Pocius)

    SF: Karnisovas, Siskauskas, Stombergas, Maciulis, Kuzminskas, Timinskas, M.Zukauskas, S.Jasaitis (Sorry Salenga, R.Giedratis and Butkevicius)

    PF: D. Sabonis, Kleiza, Songaila, K.Lavrinovic, Jankunas, T. Masiulis (Domas here to avoid JV vs Domas controversy, also Praskevicius)

    C: A. Sabonis, Valanciunas, Ilgauskas, Einikis, Javtokas, D. Lavrinovic, E.Zukauskas, Gudaitis (Petravicius, Motiejunas)



    SF position is (crazy) deepest along with C, PG is shallowest.

    What did i miss?

    PS: I missed Kaukenas, T. Masiulis, D. Lavrinovic, Pocius, got them only with additional research in my mind.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 12-05-2019 at 03:24 PM.
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  13. #153
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Obviously PG was the most problematic, we had only Saras, Kalnietis and then Chomicius in 1992, in 1995 he already wasn't that vital. Maybe we could add Marciulionis to some extent as PG too. All other were just position fillers. Not that they were bad or smth, but previously mentioned trio are just standouts out of crew

    The least problems probably were with C, or maybe SF, but going down to even deeper history, I'd pick C, cause in 1937 and 1939 we had amazing Cs in Talzunas (1937) and Lubinas (1939)


  14. #154

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    yeah, I decided to exclude Chomicius basically because it's not fair to him, just as with Jovaisa and some others. Even in 1992, the last relevant tournament with NT basically, he wasn't much with 6.6pts and 2.2 assists. He was a great player, so I sort of leave him to 80's and not even include him here.

    And Paulauskas was sort of SF, so SF and C positions are by far the best historically.
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  15. #155

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    I realised I missed Ulanovas at SF.
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  16. #156
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    yeah, I decided to exclude Chomicius basically because it's not fair to him, just as with Jovaisa and some others. Even in 1992, the last relevant tournament with NT basically, he wasn't much with 6.6pts and 2.2 assists. He was a great player, so I sort of leave him to 80's and not even include him here.
    Hold on, hold on here don't put Chomicius and Jovaisa into the same sentence regarding 1992. Jovaisa, true, was there more out of respect and his huge input in Zalgiris and Lith bball all through the years. But Chomicius was far from done. He was non factor in 1995, but in 1992 he had very important role and was among key players in NT. Putting his stats as some criteria, thats what is really not fair to him Scoring was not his primary task there, we had 4 great scorers in that team, but nonetheless Chomicius contributed when it mattered the most - vs Australia, vs Brazil, vs CIS. I mean not just offense, but defense too, he was just great at it in most occasions


  17. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Hold on, hold on here don't put Chomicius and Jovaisa into the same sentence regarding 1992. Jovaisa, true, was there more out of respect and his huge input in Zalgiris and Lith bball all through the years. But Chomicius was far from done. He was non factor in 1995, but in 1992 he had very important role and was among key players in NT. Putting his stats as some criteria, thats what is really not fair to him Scoring was not his primary task there, we had 4 great scorers in that team, but nonetheless Chomicius contributed when it mattered the most - vs Australia, vs Brazil, vs CIS. I mean not just offense, but defense too, he was just great at it in most occasions
    Indeed, going to deeper into it, I even remember now that he was still tough nose guard. So maybe he deserves to be included even more than some Maskoliunas or Lekavicius. My point however was that both already contributed very little (specially Jovaisa, just symbolically as you say) so it's not even fair to judge them in the perspective of 90's, it should be 80's. But, yeah, why not to include legendary Valdemaras Chomicius!
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  18. #158
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    The only thing I remember from the early and mid 90's Fiba basketball was a walking pace at which all teams played and the scores like 50-48 being a common occurence back then. And yeah, our NT with broken down Sabonis and Marciulionis were no exception - both of them basically scored all of the points and the others just hit an occasional three pointer if opportunity presented itself. That was not a pretty basketball to watch to say the least

  19. #159
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Indeed, going to deeper into it, I even remember now that he was still tough nose guard. So maybe he deserves to be included even more than some Maskoliunas or Lekavicius. My point however was that both already contributed very little (specially Jovaisa, just symbolically as you say) so it's not even fair to judge them in the perspective of 90's, it should be 80's. But, yeah, why not to include legendary Valdemaras Chomicius!
    Sure, Chomicius peak was 80s, but if to talk about some list since 1992, then he must be included even if was for one tournament, his contribution was big

    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    The only thing I remember from the early and mid 90's Fiba basketball was a walking pace at which all teams played and the scores like 50-48 being a common occurence back then. And yeah, our NT with broken down Sabonis and Marciulionis were no exception - both of them basically scored all of the points and the others just hit an occasional three pointer if opportunity presented itself. That was not a pretty basketball to watch to say the least
    You are right about a thing that lot of NTs were guided by megastars and deep bench was barely used, but that slow bball was more common to clubs. NTs bball was different, more lively, faster, higher scoring. Our NT, let's say in the same 1992 was surely far from slow paced team, we used to score a lot, against the same Brazil in quarterfinal we scored 114, against CIS is that very tough bronze medal game over 80. In 1995 picture was the same. It was decent bball to watch. Only in 1996 it changed, Sabas looked slower, Kurtinaitis got older, Karnisovas was slowed down by ankle injury in that classic opener vs Croatia, and most importantly Marciulionis was plagued by knee injuries big time before the Olympics, he was urged not to play at all in Atlanta'96, as a result he was a shadow of himself and finally we simply got no one to run the game, then yeah, our pace dropped down and it was not much of joy to watch our team playing, maybe with exception of that 1/4 vs Greece, that was great game, good that at least we grabbed bronze at the end


  20. #160

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    Good point, mindozas. Those games were not as boring as it may seem, Marciulionis could push it in the open court like none guard can these days in our, or even others elite NTs. The same Sabonis was very quick decision maker, he wasn't bruising all night long, few quick moves, boom boom that's it. The ball moved perfectly, they knew how to improvise in half court offence. The difference was that in some possessions they simply walked if decided so, they had thirty seconds so who cares, let's save some energy. The game between Serbia and Lithuania in 1995 was pretty slow, huge bodies, Sabonis, Divac, Rebraca. But look at these hightlights 1992 LT vs CRO, the game was dynamic and nice:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8P_J9yQAJA

    PS: One thing that is needed to say, these days defence is so much more organised and superior in terms of scouting, tactics so on. Back in the day we played zone with Sabonis standing in the paint, that's all, pretty much all time. Even in 00's we didn't play all that much D with Sireika We were outscoring opponents. The game was surely much more nicer than we saw in 10's.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 12-05-2019 at 08:19 PM.
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