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Thread: All time NT

  1. #1

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    What would be your all time best Lithuania's unit? Specially, who would be the starting 5? Here's mine:

    Best starting five:

    PG: Jasikevičius
    SG: Marčiulionis
    SF: Karnišovas
    PF: Kleiza
    C: Sabonis

    I don't remember how Paulauskas looked in the court unfortunately. Usually older people treat him as one of all time best, but I start since 1992. The most difficult choice for me was to pick Karnišovas instead of Šiškauskas, but Karnišovas was huge. 17ppg and probably even more gifted individually than Šiška. Both were super intelligent players. Some of you might question Kleiza here, but he's the most dominant PF we ever had, IMO. Made more impact than Songaila and Einikis.

    Bench:

    PG: Kalnietis
    SG: Kurtinaitis, Macijauskas
    SF: Šiškauskas, Štombergas
    PF: Songaila
    C: Einikis

    Einikis made you wonder I'm guessing. Some will say - JV already is better and they might be right. But as of yet, Einikis was important part of 1996 and specially 2000 Olympic teams. So from this perspective I would still see Einikis more deserved to be in all time Lithuanian team.

    Honorable mention: Chomičius, Adomaitis, E.Žukauskas, Kaukėnas, K. Lavrinovič, Javtokas, Lukminas, Jasaitis, M. Žukauskas (the list is long, but those I see as the most talented).
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  2. #2
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    I guess Jovaisa is one of them "honorables" for me (apparently it is not even a correct English word,although it makes perfect sense to me) .
    For those people who are too young to remember him ,I would describe his game similar to Siskauskas and maybe more.Plus he was kind of pioneer in sustaining playing longevity when at the time hitting 30 was the same as hitting a nail into ones playing career.Hell of the player he was,no doubt in my mind.
    Lukminas ,on the other hand,pff. That is Gecevicius from 20 years ago.
    Ilgauskas -whatever one has to say about him and since he actually played for Nt team,so yeah,him to ,i would to "honorables"
    Last edited by auris1; 10-13-2014 at 12:00 AM.

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    Senior Member Hepcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    What would be your all time best Lithuania's unit? Specially, who would be the starting 5? Here's mine:

    Best starting five:

    PG: Jasikevičius
    SG: Marčiulionis
    SF: Karnišovas
    PF: Kleiza
    C: Sabonis

    Bench:

    PG: Kalnietis
    SG: Kurtinaitis, Macijauskas
    SF: Šiškauskas, Štombergas
    PF: Songaila
    C: Einikis

    Einikis made you wonder I'm guessing. Some will say - JV already is better and they might be right.
    I'd be tempted to go with Jonas Valančiūnas or Robertas Javtokas at backup center but otherwise I agree.

    Last edited by Hepcat; 06-21-2016 at 03:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    It's hard to make all-time roster, too big time span, really hard to measure the talent, but since 1992

    PG: Jasikevicius
    SG: Marciulionis (PG), Macijauskas, Kurtinaitis
    SF: Karnisovas, Siskauskas (SG), Stombergas
    PF: Kleiza, Songaila
    C: Sabonis, Ilgauskas, Einikis

    If to pick 2nd PG, Chomicius would surely be infront of Kalnietis, but since Marciulionis could easily play a PG, there was simply no place for another. I'm not sure about Jovaisa, in 1992 he was at the end of his career, but looking back, he was amazing player, great scorer, clutch one


  5. #5

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    I really missed Jovaiša. From what I've seen he was very light and was doing everything with the grace The problem is as you mentioned that he only went to 1992 team and was a non-factor basically due to his age. I have no sufficient picture of him to say if he belongs to all time NT. But surely deserves to be mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by auris1 View Post
    Lukminas ,on the other hand,pff. That is Gecevicius from 20 years ago.
    Ilgauskas -whatever one has to say about him and since he actually played for Nt team,so yeah,him to ,i would to "honorables"
    Maybe, but he was a hell of a shooter playing at the hight level. On the second thought I would even consider to mention Vaišvila, but Lukminas played more for the NT and scored more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    If to pick 2nd PG, Chomicius would surely be infront of Kalnietis, but since Marciulionis could easily play a PG, there was simply no place for another. I'm not sure about Jovaisa, in 1992 he was at the end of his career, but looking back, he was amazing player, great scorer, clutch one
    Your all time team would be more balanced, but Ilgauskas really can't be here Javtokas, Eurelijus or even Darjuš deserves that spot more. Theoretically peaking Ilgauskas is the force any day off course, but he never did it.

    Chomičius was a good player, but I watched 1988 Olympic games and his impact was solid at best (while Marčiulionis were great and Kurtinaitis good). I don't see him having the same impact as Kalnietis these days (specially the way he played in 2013). If Kalnietis can be a main figure running the team, I can't see Chomičius as a player who can handle the ball all the time and to be a guy to go. He seemed to me like a hard worker, great team player, tough defender, but not nearly as strong offensive player as Kalnietis in the regular basis. The fact that he was hitting to the second leagues of Italy and Spain also says a lot. Kalnietis will have decent chance to sign with an NBA this off season, IMO.
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    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Your all time team would be more balanced, but Ilgauskas really can't be here Javtokas, Eurelijus or even Darjuš deserves that spot more. Theoretically peaking Ilgauskas is the force any day off course, but he never did it.
    It's neverending discussion about Ilgauskas. Some calls him traitor, some understands his decisions. I'm with latter. Probably cause I had a chance to know about his condition quite a lot from very reliable sources and I understand his decisions perfectly. Believe me, it's unenviable situation. And afterall really sad case for both NT and Ilgauskas himself. Maybe exactly that was the reason why I still put him in my list, he still played couple of games and was 2nd best center after Sabas we ever had. But I do understand why you didn't pick him, it's just different views on this situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Chomičius was a good player, but I watched 1988 Olympic games and his impact was solid at best (while Marčiulionis were great and Kurtinaitis good). I don't see him having the same impact as Kalnietis these days (specially the way he played in 2013). If Kalnietis can be a main figure running the team, I can't see Chomičius as a player who can handle the ball all the time and to be a guy to go. He seemed to me like a hard worker, great team player, tough defender, but not nearly as strong offensive player as Kalnietis in the regular basis. The fact that he was hitting to the second leagues of Italy and Spain also says a lot. Kalnietis will have decent chance to sign with an NBA this off season, IMO.
    It's really hard to measure the talent of different generations. Who would be Chomicius if he would've had conditions that Kalnietis has to practise, I mean medicine, training conditions, personal coaches and etc. And vice versa, who would've been Kalnietis under conditions Chomicius had? Which were really poor during those times. Who knows. But they do has smth incommon, both weren't great talents, but both made it quite far. My father had a chance to practise with Chomicius at his early beginnings of career and Chomicius was laughing stock of the team He couldn't do nothing except he had great vertical leap. But he practised like crazy. Kalnietis was similar, great leaping abilities, but poor shooting, poor ball handling. Anyway, unlike some Janavicius, Cizauskas, he practised on his weak points and improved quite a lot. Moreover, not only conditions, but times were different, so to spot Kalnietis was much more easier and he could rather early take his talents abroad, while Chomicius couldn't, due to well known reasons, so don't let those 2nd string clubs fool you, he played there cause he was already past his prime. Also, top notch clubs were kinda careful before inviting former Soviet players. Sabas also started with Valladolid, the same like Chomicius. Kurtinaitis moved to Hagen at first. It was surely below their real level. The same was not only with basketball players btw, some really talented footballers, handballers also didn't have a chance to play where they should've had.
    I don't want to take anything away from Kalnietis, but from my point of view, Chomicius was just better player in his time than Kalnietis is nowadays and made it further than Mantas did so far. Alone Soviet NT was huge achievement back in the days and Chomicius wasn't bench warmer there at all, anyway not a leader too, but having beside him Marciulionis, Sabas who would be? Also I think you underestimate Chomicius offensive skills, he wasn't that effective like Kalnietis is with alley-oops, dunking and etc., but he could lead the team, was really decent scorer when needed, also could defend really well. But like I wrote at the beginning - overall it's really hard to measure who was more talented, so having different views is ok


  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    It's really hard to measure the talent of different generations. Who would be Chomicius if he would've had conditions that Kalnietis has to practise, I mean medicine, training conditions, personal coaches and etc. And vice versa, who would've been Kalnietis under conditions Chomicius had? Which were really poor during those times. Who knows. But they do has smth incommon, both weren't great talents, but both made it quite far. My father had a chance to practise with Chomicius at his early beginnings of career and Chomicius was laughing stock of the team He couldn't do nothing except he had great vertical leap. But he practised like crazy. Kalnietis was similar, great leaping abilities, but poor shooting, poor ball handling. Anyway, unlike some Janavicius, Cizauskas, he practised on his weak points and improved quite a lot. Moreover, not only conditions, but times were different, so to spot Kalnietis was much more easier and he could rather early take his talents abroad, while Chomicius couldn't, due to well known reasons, so don't let those 2nd string clubs fool you, he played there cause he was already past his prime. Also, top notch clubs were kinda careful before inviting former Soviet players. Sabas also started with Valladolid, the same like Chomicius. Kurtinaitis moved to Hagen at first. It was surely below their real level. The same was not only with basketball players btw, some really talented footballers, handballers also didn't have a chance to play where they should've had.
    I don't want to take anything away from Kalnietis, but from my point of view, Chomicius was just better player in his time than Kalnietis is nowadays and made it further than Mantas did so far. Alone Soviet NT was huge achievement back in the days and Chomicius wasn't bench warmer there at all, anyway not a leader too, but having beside him Marciulionis, Sabas who would be? Also I think you underestimate Chomicius offensive skills, he wasn't that effective like Kalnietis is with alley-oops, dunking and etc., but he could lead the team, was really decent scorer when needed, also could defend really well. But like I wrote at the beginning - overall it's really hard to measure who was more talented, so having different views is ok
    Indeed I probably underrated Chomičius' offensive skills. Didn't see him much in his best years. So overall it's hard to rank his impact not only because of different environment and time, but you have to know a player really well to judge him. For example, Kalnietis in 2013 not only scored 12ppg but also 5 assists and 5 rebounds. That's huge impact, specially knowing that the ball was mostly in his hands for +30 min so he had to do a lot of other things like play making, protecting the ball, controlling the rhythm. I think playing with Sabonis, Kurtinaitis and Jovaiša that could be an easier task as all of them had great IQ and could pass the ball. Anyway, Chomičius was very tough and obviously could be a volume scorer. Here's a nice find:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWh0kfWF_Hs
    Last edited by Straight forward; 10-13-2014 at 01:43 PM.
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    Nice thread, well done Straight forward.
    Starting five (only players who won gold in the Olympic basketball tournaments)
    PG: Marciulionis
    SG: Kurtinaitis
    SF: Modestas Paulauskas (SG) (his height was 1.88-1.94, It,s not enough for SF,but i can,t mention this unique player in my starting five)
    PF: Pranas Lubinas ( won Olympic gold with USA NT in 1936 but who cares?! )
    C: Sabonis

    Bench :
    PG: Jasikevicius
    SG: Macijauskas
    SF: Karnisovas, Siskauskas (SG), Stombergas
    PF:Kleiza
    C: Ilgauskas ( i was a little hesitant about Big Z, definitely that he,s very contradictory person, but his PURE talent plays on his side.)
    Curious All time NT, isn,t it?

  9. #9
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    My all time Lithuania team:

    PG S.Jasikevicius,M.Kalnietis
    SG S.Marciulionis,R.Kurtinaitis,A.Macijauskas
    SF A.Karnisovas,R.Siskauskas,S.Stombergas
    PF L.Kleiza,D.Songaila
    C A.Sabonis,R.Javtokas

    My team have no weaks spots.I have really good guards and Sabonis in the middle my team would win ! :P

    I put Kalnietis instead of Chomicius because Mantas already did similiar things playings for national team as Chomicius did in entire career.And Mantas still have like 4-5 years he definetely will over power chomiciaus achievements when his playing days will be over.I put Javtokas as second center because i need some defence after sabonis will be resting for 5minutes and guards will do offensive job.Songaila will do dirty work inside.And 1-3 positions +kleiza gonna shoot you do dead.I cant put ilgauskas because he played 2 games almost like friendlys,he do not deserve being in all time lithuanian team.There are way more deserved guys who didnt make my team than Ilgauskas.

    My criterias was simple i included players: who gave their heart and soul to national team. Such players i will always take to my team because i know they gonna die on the floor ...

    Honorable mentiones: V.Chomicius,Lavrinovich bros,S.Jasaitis,E.Zukauskas for their dedication to national team.Already got my respect Seibutis,Maciulis,Jankunas,Pocius,Valanciunas for never saying "no".

  10. #10
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    I really missed Jovaiša. From what I've seen he was very light and was doing everything with the grace The problem is as you mentioned that he only went to 1992 team and was a non-factor basically due to his age. I have no sufficient picture of him to say if he belongs to all time NT. But surely deserves to be mentioned.
    Perhaps his impact was minimal in 1992 ,but still ...his legacy is hardly questionable...
    You know,the list doesn't just have to be limited to 5 or 12 players,it seems too restrictive .It's not like we have to abide to Fiba rules here.

    ... he (Lukminas ) was a hell of a shooter playing at the hight level.
    So is Gecevicius - and ,arguably ,he played for better/higher level team(s) ( Olympiakos ???).Not even sure where Lukminas played after he left Zalgiris .
    Either way,none of them are/were good enough for this list.

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    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    My father had a chance to practise with Chomicius at his early beginnings of career and Chomicius was laughing stock of the team He couldn't do nothing except he had great vertical leap. But he practised like crazy.
    This ...His work ethics were second to none .And if i remember correctly (or if facts i was told by some random people were correct) ,Gomelsky put his faith in him very early in his career - he was in USSR training camp even before he was starting five in Zalgiris .(Linkevicius ,Masalskis were leading the team at the time)
    Even so,I personally remember him coming for his warm-up like 30-40 before anyone else would start their warm up just to practice his shooting. And hell,that was alone was worth the admission money.100-150 various shots, perhaps 2 or 3 misses (this was before 3 point line was introduced).

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    Senior Member Darknemo2000's Avatar
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    PG: Jasikevicius, Chomicius
    SG: Marciulionis, Macijauskas
    SF: Karnisovas, Siskauskas, Stombergas
    PF: Kleiza, Songaila
    C: Sabonis, Ilgauskas, Einikis

    Honorable mentions - Paulauskas, Kurtinaitis, Jovaisa, Lubinas, Kaukenas, Kalnietis, Javtokas, E. and M. Zukauskas, Jasaitis, Lavrinovic brothers. I think Valanciunas will join the best 12 group eventually.
    Last edited by Darknemo2000; 10-16-2014 at 07:28 AM.

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    G: Jasikevičius, Kalnietis
    G: Marčiulionis, Macijauskas, Kurtinaitis
    F: Štombergas, Šiškauskas
    F: Karnišovas, Kleiza
    C: Sabonis, Ilgauskas, Valančiūnas

    I do not understood people who put Einikis. He drink and abuses his wife, drinking before practicing and doing cocaine. I think he do bettr if not drugs and alcohol.

    Chomičius sadly did not play good, he ,33 year old in Barcelona olympics, was episodal player. This is why I put not him. Songaila played averagely. Paulauskas ,Lubinas did not count, they played before year 1992..

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    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilkas View Post
    I do not understood people who put Einikis. He drink and abuses his wife, drinking before practicing and doing cocaine. I think he do bettr if not drugs and alcohol.
    Probably cause he was great player and is among best frontcourt players Lithuania ever produced. So people judges Einikis by his on court achievements, like f.e. 3 Olympic bronze medals, and not off court "actions". Moreover he didn't have problems with drugs while playin', not sure about abusing his wife, but neverthless it's sad that he ended up this way and some younger persons recognises him as somekind of clown nowadays, but forgets how good he was on court


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    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    Probably cause he was great player and is among best frontcourt players Lithuania ever produced. So people judges Einikis by his on court achievements, like f.e. 3 Olympic bronze medals, and not off court "actions". Moreover he didn't have problems with drugs while playin', not sure about abusing his wife, but neverthless it's sad that he ended up this way and some younger persons recognises him as somekind of clown nowadays, but forgets how good he was on court
    People tends to go off the rails,from time to time.They get addicted to drugs,gambling or alcohol ,make bad financial choices ,mistreats theirs spouses ,sires numerous offsprings ,have issues with their temper or personality ,etc.
    I suppose,Einikis had been all this and maybe more ,but more importantly ,he is in need of some sort help for ,and has been for some time,.Unfortunately,our society in general does not have a capacity not only to provide to his needs,but even to recognize issues he has as individual.Hence the clown.

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    Default Follow-up on Big Z

    [QUOTE=Mindozas;937516]It's neverending discussion about Ilgauskas. Some calls him traitor, some understands his decisions. I'm with latter. Probably cause I had a chance to know about his condition quite a lot from very reliable sources and I understand his decisions perfectly. Believe me, it's unenviable situation. And afterall really sad case for both NT and Ilgauskas himself. Maybe exactly that was the reason why I still put him in my list, he still played couple of games and was 2nd best center after Sabas we ever had. But I do understand why you didn't pick him, it's just different views on this situation

    Could you possibly elaborate more on this? I'm pretty ignorant on the whole matter of what happened. Or is there a good source I might read? Maybe this is taking things off-topic, in which case I apologize.

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    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LithuanianCramWatch View Post

    Could you possibly elaborate more on this? I'm pretty ignorant on the whole matter of what happened. Or is there a good source I might read? Maybe this is taking things off-topic, in which case I apologize.
    It's NT matter. Ilgauskas never represented NT in any official tournament, just played few qualifying games before he got injured and moved to USA where underwent series of feet surgeries and started to play for Cavs. Before moving he was accused by his coach (later federation president) for faking injury, but actually as time showed, it was much more serious than anyone could've thought. Well as it turned out, Ilgauskas never played for NT again. In 2008 Ilgauskas wanted to play, but back injury occured and last hope was gone. So some people called him traitor through-out all his career, who doesn't give a f*ck about his country, some said that he is mad on federation president cause of that accusations and etc, so that's the reason he doesn't want to represent NT anymore. I was this the latter at first. But I wasn't aware how complicated situation actually was until I get to know about it all from some sources close to situation. Ilgauskas wasn't mad, he did give a f*ck about his country and wanted to represent it badly, but he had very serious health issues, which didn't allow him. Basically every summer it was dilemma for him: either rest his body (feets) during NBA off-season as every doc, club insisted him to do so; either play for NT, but there's very high risk that his body woudn't take it and next injury would most probably be career ending (similar case happened to Yao, he kept playin' for NT summer or few and it was all over for him). So the situation was unenviable, stakes/risk were very high, so he decided to rest during off season and only in 2008 finally wanted to take a risk, but I guess smth is never meant to be. After I get to know it all, I stopped blaming him for anything. Even I'm patriot of my country and love NT, if I'd be in Ilgauskas shoes, I don't know if I would take such risk at young age and put my bball career in jeopardy, so who am I to blame other person for taking such decision. For me was enough to know that Ilgauskas wasn't faking anything and it was big loss for him not to play for NT, just like for NT not to have him in it. Sad circumstances, sad story


  18. #18
    Senior Member auris1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindozas View Post
    It's NT matter. Ilgauskas never represented NT in any official tournament, just played few qualifying games before he got injured and moved to USA where underwent series of feet surgeries and started to play for Cavs. Before moving he was accused by his coach (later federation president) for faking injury, but actually as time showed, it was much more serious than anyone could've thought. Well as it turned out, Ilgauskas never played for NT again. In 2008 Ilgauskas wanted to play, but back injury occured and last hope was gone. So some people called him traitor through-out all his career, who doesn't give a f*ck about his country, some said that he is mad on federation president cause of that accusations and etc, so that's the reason he doesn't want to represent NT anymore. I was this the latter at first. But I wasn't aware how complicated situation actually was until I get to know about it all from some sources close to situation. Ilgauskas wasn't mad, he did give a f*ck about his country and wanted to represent it badly, but he had very serious health issues, which didn't allow him. Basically every summer it was dilemma for him: either rest his body (feets) during NBA off-season as every doc, club insisted him to do so; either play for NT, but there's very high risk that his body woudn't take it and next injury would most probably be career ending (similar case happened to Yao, he kept playin' for NT summer or few and it was all over for him). So the situation was unenviable, stakes/risk were very high, so he decided to rest during off season and only in 2008 finally wanted to take a risk, but I guess smth is never meant to be. After I get to know it all, I stopped blaming him for anything. Even I'm patriot of my country and love NT, if I'd be in Ilgauskas shoes, I don't know if I would take such risk at young age and put my bball career in jeopardy, so who am I to blame other person for taking such decision. For me was enough to know that Ilgauskas wasn't faking anything and it was big loss for him not to play for NT, just like for NT not to have him in it. Sad circumstances, sad story
    Wasn't 2011 though, the year of his "comeback" ? And his back injury that ended it?
    Plus, I always felt that Cavs maintained the faith in him regardless of his injuries by not abandoning him and such,so that it was impossible for Z to deny their request to take time off during summers for recuperation purposes.
    In the end of the day,I can even accept the fact that perhaps he did not want to play for NT,ever .
    He is still great player and a person to me,person who made a lot of Lithuanians proud of what he had achieved in life ,and...There is more than one way to represented our country ,which he did pretty well during his career in NBA.
    Last edited by auris1; 10-27-2014 at 11:39 PM.

  19. #19
    Moderator Mindozas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by auris1 View Post
    Wasn't 2011 though, the year of his "comeback" ? And his back injury that ended it?
    No, it was 2008 Olympics. Ilgauskas was 33yo, not so young for a pro player, but still really good, so decided to take a risk and to fullfil his dream, whatever happens, happens. Some federation members even traveled to USA and gave him NT jerseys, but all that season he had troubles with his back and the situation wasn't any better when NT camps was about to start, so he was forced to withdraw.


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    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    I understand he has seriuos injury history and playing in summer would be a big risk and so on.But common there is no escuses if Ilgauskas didnt find atleast ONE SUMMER!! in 14 years (1998-2011) to play for Lietuva thats just showed that men just didnt care at all about lithuania and their basketball end of discusion.Nobody asked him to play every summer,but he could have played atleast in most important tournaments like 2000 2004 2008 olimpic games one time in 4 years,but no he didnt find a free time even for one 1 summer in 14 years.I cant called him a traitor or something no its was his desicions and his risks but...National team is for true lithuanian players who cares,but not to money slaves like Ilgauskas.Everybody remembers sabonis,marciulionis,kurtinaitis and so on who played before ilgauskas,because our nation people respect those mens even when their playing days is over a while already,ilgauskas finished career only 3 years ,but in Lithuania he is almost forgotten totally already...I believe money cant buy that feeling when entire nation do not respect you and some of them even hate you.Shame on those fans who put ilgauskas on our all time national team roster,that men do not belong to be there period.If he really wanted to play and help our national team he would have found time and risk atleast couple times in 14years.He didnt play at all how does he could knew that playing 7-8 games in a summer gonna brake him him,if 82 games in nba didnt ?
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-28-2014 at 05:06 PM.

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