All time NT

[Shawshank]

1997 eurobasket games LTU scored pts:

75, 94, 76, 66, 93, 64, 60, 76, 93

tell me how its impossible to have 89 average with 6 games scored under 77 points ? and only 3 over 89?


I count only seriuos games that shows real picture when main player plays most of the time,not benchers vs other benchers in those blowouts.

Thats for me indicates true tallent and strenght of a team.

Alot europeans teams can score 90 or 100 against assian teams that shows nothing.For me those games are more for 9-12th players in rotation like in friendlies.


If that Senegal was so good how manny games they won in world champ 2019? why they finished tournament with 0-5? and loosing even against Jordan NT?

I will say again if team cant make no stops in last 2 minutes in two diffrent close games... team simply get what team deserves in playoofs atmosphere games.

It means team mentally wasnt ready to take those games and without such type wins you are going nowhere in playoofs.

Usually such tough experience helps same players in future tournaments,we will see.

[Straight forward]

You right, it's 77.4. My bad.

My point is that you overemphasizing last Kazlauskas' stretch. It was correct decision to slow down the tempo, concentrate on D and to play simple, methodical basketball at offense, but that's because Kazlauskas had not other options and that's just a short stretch, that's not the predominate trait of Lithuanian basketball. You missing the point that we were starching medals for 2 decades in completely different fashion. Golden Sweden team couldn't lock other best teams perimeter, we simply outscored other teams. You say, you either making stops at crunch, or you lose. No, that's not true. You can still play even better offense and still win, that's how we snatched absolute majority of medals, like 7 from 9.

And you're too stubborn too admit that with such system Kazlauskas was completely toothless in Olympic games, the highest stage of FIBA competition. We were badly beaten. So even if D is very important, and I'm pleased to see that we will have very good defenders in Marciulionis, D. Giedraitis and some decent ones like Jokubaitis, Velicka, Grigonis, it's the offense that wins big games. We will be legit contenders only when our offense will be oiled with elite offensive lubricant again.

You emphasizing how 2019 lost because of D, and it's surely a part of true since it was extremely stupid to leave JV guarding p'n'r in the last second possession, but you missing those Grigonis' and Lekavicius' lay ups or Sabonis' missed wide open lay up after the rebound. If we had offensive players who could actually make those shots, we would had get away with a win.

You're too in love with emphasizing Kazlauskas 2013 example like it would be the best paradigm of our basketball It's not. Look at 2003 and hope something similar like that. With that team we won everything in Europe and were close to do it globally in 2004.

[Mindozas]

It's a myth that 2003 team couldn't defend. Just close to perfect offense overshadowed all the defensive efforts and with time it all gets forgotten. Don Nelson made major job to make that team more balanced and it had some decent defenders starting with both Zukauskas. Without smart defense we wouldn't be able to reach final, that game vs France in semi was the one where our offense didn't click and had day off for our standards, but exactly smart defensive decisions and efforts helped us to stay in the game. In 2004 our defense started to struggle when Don was stripped off of his defensive duties

[Straight forward]

It's a myth that 2003 team couldn't defend. Just close to perfect offense overshadowed all the defensive efforts and with time it all gets forgotten. Don Nelson made major job to make that team more balanced and it had some decent defenders starting with both Zukauskas. Without smart defense we wouldn't be able to reach final, that game vs France in semi was the one where our offense didn't click and had day off for our standards, but exactly smart defensive decisions and efforts helped us to stay in the game. In 2004 our defense started to struggle when Don was stripped off of his defensive duties

But it wasn't good defensive team Decent, probably a good word. Again, with Saras and Macijauskas at perimeter, you can't expect to have good D, even with smart game plan and their IQ. But, yeah, it was better than some would expect, opponents scored 76,6ppg. In comparison to Kazlauskas' 2013EB 68ppg and 71,7ppg in 2015EB. Knowing that in 2003 the level of competition was probably higher (except the blow out game against Israel) overall, it's very decent defence. It's only numbers and these comparisons can't be taken directly, but the fact is that 2003 team was primarily OFFENSIVE, they were scoring 90pts per game and that's what made us so hard to beat. If you can score 90pts per game you elite, even with mediocre or decent defence.

[Straight forward]

My point is that it's great to have 2 ways backourt, great ballers at both ends of the floor, but if I would have a chance to choose 5 elite offensive guards or 5 elite defensive guards, I would choose offensive. I think today, specially NBA and FIBA will follow eventually, basketball is about scoring, you can't contain elite offensive players even if you are elite defender more often than you can:

In Dean Oliver’s “Basketball on Paper”, one of his findings is similar for the NBA, that offense wins playoffs and championships more often that defense

http://harvardsportsanalysis.org/2014/05/what-wins-in-the-nba-offense-or-defense/

[Mindozas]

But it wasn't good defensive team Decent, probably a good word. Again, with Saras and Macijauskas at perimeter, you can't expect to have good D, even with smart game plan and their IQ. But, yeah, it was better than some would expect, opponents scored 76,6ppg. In comparison to Kazlauskas' 2013EB 68ppg and 71,7ppg in 2015EB. Knowing that in 2003 the level of competition was probably higher (except the blow out game against Israel) overall, it's very decent defence. It's only numbers and these comparisons can't be taken directly, but the fact is that 2003 team was primarily OFFENSIVE, they were scoring 90pts per game and that's what made us so hard to beat. If you can score 90pts per game you elite, even with mediocre or decent defence.

Of course that 2003 team was more offensive one and defense wasn't elite. My point was just to add that this team had not only offense, but it had good options for defensive work too. M.Zukauskas was very versatile defender who could guard almost any position, his work against Dirk was great, even tho it lasted probably for some 15min, but Dirk was pissed and lost his game, that was exact gameplan to neutralize Dirk, then the same Siska could guard from PG to SF, I mean put these two and they can hide your defensive flaws in good defensive tactics. Like e.g. from nowadays, such Milaknis looked as decent team defender under Saras, but we all know that individually he is poor, but it was barely seen. Then in the paint we had Eurelijus. And Nelson and co managed to created decent enough balance to stay in game if suddenly offense won't produce. That's how we won Eurobasket. In 2004 we exactly lacked that defensive push, we lived with that at first, but especially against Italy we were punished the worst way possible, when offense started to struggle. I mean in semifinal game we lost couple stretches with score like 0-15 or 0-20 or so, not one, but two, that's inexcusable, not only defensively, but offensively too. You need some balance always to win it all, in 2004 we lacked defense, in Kazlauskas second stint offense

[Hepcat]

...I'm pleased to see that we will have very good defenders in Marciulionis, D. Giedraitis and some decent ones like Jokubaitis, Velicka, Grigonis....

I think it's far too early to pronounce upon the defensive capabilities of Dovis Giedraitis, Arnas Velička, Rokas Jokubaitis and Augustas Marčiulionis. Quite simply their skills have not been tested yet against national team level opponents.

Now that Renaldas Seibutis is gone, it's only Marius Grigonis, Edgaras Ulanovas and Arnas Butkevičius that can currently be classified as good to very good defensive players among likely national team players.

[Straight forward]

I think it's far too early to pronounce upon the defensive capabilities of Dovis Giedraitis, Arnas Velička, Rokas Jokubaitis and Augustas Marčiulionis. Quite simply their skills have not been tested yet against national team level opponents.

It's a projection. I simply project them to be so in the future.

Now that Renaldas Seibutis is gone, it's only Marius Grigonis, Edgaras Ulanovas and Arnas Butkevičius that can currently be classified as good to very good defensive players among likely national team players.

I would say none of them are in such class. From these Ulanovas is most universal and best defender, but he also has his limitations, he's not the best athlete and not lightening agile or tough. Ulanovas is simply solid EL defensive player. Butkevicius is a solid Eurocup's defensive player. Arnas lacks a bit better game reading, higher IQ, tends to commit silly fouls here and there. Grigonis is a decent EL defender. He obviously lacks physical presence, a bit soft, fragile, and now when he became No.1 option at O for Zalgiris, tends to be a bit lazy here and there.

Regarding future, I'm very high on Tubelis, Sedekerskis, Marciulionis. Those can be elite defenders.

[Straight forward]

We lately mention the term generational talent. It's a tricky term which often described differently. Strong description would be "talent that comes once or few times in generation and has absolute supremacy". I think at this point we only had generational talent in Arvydas Sabonis. Looking globally Bird and Magic were generational talents in 80s NBA and say Jordan, Hakeem in 90s. However, specially Shawshank uses the term in a broader sense, something like "special talent that comes once or few times in generation who can make an impact in the NT at early age and in his prime to lead his club and NT to elite achievements ". Under this "false" description which probably getting close to a terms "leader" or "the key player", we can clarify our own generational talents from each decade. Here how I would do it:

80s: Jovaisa, Kurtinaitis, Chomicius
90s: Sabonis, Marciulionis, Karnisovas
00s: Jasikevicius, Siskauskas, Macijauskas, Stombergas
10s: Kleiza, Valanciunas

OK, why there's no Kalnietis, Maciulis? Kalnietis never reached elite level club career wise. Maciulis, IMO, also, despite being a role player for Real (debatable I guess).

20s generational talents? Obviously D. Sabonis. He already reached that level, and it's a good chance he'll have strong NT season as well this year. Then I have 3 favorites to make the list. Jokubaitis. Marciulionis, Tubelis. All should have elite careers and with their multiple skill set to make huge impact to NT (also 16yo Buzelis and Murauskas might be of such breed, but too soon to tell).

Going back to stronger term. We have to admit we never had a ground braking talent ever since Arvydas Sabonis. Can we have another true generational talent ever? Sure, it might come and it might not. What was the date when it was clear we have a monster talent in Arvydas? When he was 16yo? We have very interesting package in 16yo Buzelis, potentially another unicorn. I'm eager to see what he is all about and how much of a real deal he is. But most likely we will have to wait long years when we'll finally have another true generational talent.

[Shawshank]

Stombergas belongs to 90s.

Stombergas best/peak years was around 1998-2001.

[LuDux]

So happy for Valanciunas

[Shawshank]

looking at history from youth tournaments i think most important tournaments is U-19 world cup when players reach age where turning to men and we start seeing who is who.

2011 U-19 Lithuana 1st Gold medal Valanciunas 23pts,Cizauskas 13,Redikas 12,Ulanovas 11,3, Butkevicius 7,2pts (R.Giedraitis on bench)

2013 U-19 Lithuania 3rd Bronze medal Grigonis 13pts,T.Dimsa 12,3pts,L.Lekavicius 9,1pts

2015 LTU didnt qualife for U-19 it had D.Sabonis and nobody else weak 1995-1997 generation similiar to 1987-1989 years.

2017 U-19 Lithuania 6th place T.Sedekerskis 15,4pts,A.Kulboka 13,7pts,G.Masiulis 10,9pts and R.Jokubaitis 10pts (at age of 17)

2019 U-19 Lithuania 4th place E.Venskus 12,9pts, R.Jokubaitis 11,3pts,K.Metrikis 10,4pts



Those best players from those youth world cups makes like 90% of our todays men NT players.Its seriuos indicator trying to guess who will be become who from those kids.


Same history goes with 1985 generation


It shows those results is not just guessing from nothing,it gives a seriuos indicators about future chances in men level too.

Who won medals in youth usually back it up in men tournaments at some point.

That alone why im high on those 1992-1994 born players now .They were simply better and won medal in those tournaments compared to our later generations of 1996-2000 born kids.

we had very strong born kids 1984-1986 we won in 2010-2015

we had nothing from 1987-1991 and we lost in 2017-2020

now time came for 1992-1994 to show us what they can do in 2021-2024.

[Straight forward]

Interesting material. And I agree that U19 is probably most interesting stage. Players already not exactly kids and they get a test of all world's teams. If we look at our current NT, we won't find a guy who wouldn't make Youth NTs. Not all of them were very bright, R. Giedraitis is the best example, but nevertheless they made youth NTs of their age class. I disagree however that winning medals is huge indicator here. Kalnietis never won medal as a main PG in Youth level, but he was our best guard of 10's. Sabonis played with crappy guys around him, but he's an ALL STAR. Again, IMO, you're expect too much from JV's generation, but if they can pull it off then better do it now in 2021. Were my optimism comes from is that we are really building strong since 1992 JV's generation:

1994 Grigonis, 1996 Sabonis, 1998 Sedekerskis, 1999 Brazdeikis, Velicka, 2000 Jokubaitis, Sirvydis, 2002 Tubelis, Marciulionis, 2004 Murauskas, Buzelis. (I even excluded some of the pieces like D. Giedraitis, Kulboka, Masiulis, Jogela, Blazevic, Rubstavicius, just to name those who to me seems to be nearly locks to be long term true NT material)

IMO, 2021 U19 might be special historically, cause it might be the biggest 2 elite talents punch in Tubelis, Marciulionis since...whatever...Maybe even Sabonis/Ronney. And funny enough, 2 years later we might have another 2 huge gems in Murauskas, Buzelis. We're on a good track.

Speaking about medals. Velicka has 4 collections. He's by far the king of Youth basketball at this point and he carried his teams in some incredible fashions, being super clutch.

[Shawshank]

even in 1987-1991 was Motiejunas and Kuzminskas ,but 1 or 2 good players only wont help men NT ,when generations changes and main players becomes veteran and not play on same level anymore.NT need more than 2 high quality player in 4 years span for seriuos chances in medals hunts.

Medals won againt pairs from worlds best tallent shows me that generation have not just tallent,but character in those generation players that is important alot in those tournaments.

That 1992-1994 now started best years,they will be around and main players all this olympic cycle 2021-2024.And we can see that from their results in clubs right now all of them balling big time on highest levels.

When 1984-1986 born players came to NT they were leaders like for 5 years,other 5 years as role players.I expect similiar things from 1992-1994.

Valanciunas is king of youth tournaments 3 golds+1bronze and one 4th place where in bronze game he put like 40pts ,but it still wasnt enough.And he didnt even played u-20 because he was already good enough for men NT.

Jonas Maciulis have 4 youth medals too + 4 medals in men NT. So he should be considered as undisputed medal king wearing ltu uniform.

But yeah i didnt know that Velicka have also 4 medals.In such case maybe he has something in him.History dont lie it repeats.


As always you going way too far with your 2000 milenium kids.

It goes 4-5 years streaches only then seriuos change happens on most NT.When main players goes to bench and so on.

Those who cames to NT around 25-26 as top 8 rotation players stays atleast for 4-5 years in that role.

2021 u-19 tournament will give us indication how much help LTU NT can wait in around 2025 compared to other NT.

[Straight forward]

Motiejunas never became a good player in the NT. He was close in 2014, and was about to be good in 2015, but injury prevented it. So we only had Kuzminskas in 2016, 2017 as really serious addition to already established and starting to decline key players (like it wouldn't be enough, generational talent JV had crappy OG in 2016 and Sabonis missed 2017EB due to NBA career). So, yeah, we badly missed new quality blood in this stretch.

I meant Velicka is the king after Valanciunas. He sneakingly snatched 4 medals and what's most important he really almost single handedly carried his teams to the podium. However, you trust history too much to repeat

In previous post I didn't say a thing when my mentioned prospects will make a team But you just stick to some scheme too much. Every decade is different. NT always take best possible puzzle available. If we have great young talents, whey will make a team. Jokubaitis as generational talent should make at 20 (he actually will be more of 21 this summer), Sedekerskis should make it at 23. Then we also have huge talents in Tubelis and Marciulionis and those 2 won't need to wait 2025 to make the team, come on Tubelis will have great chances to make the team in 2022, if he won't be an obvious lock by then. Marciulionis should be ready for 2023, at the age of 21. Jokubaitis, Tubelis, Marciulionis are generational talents since you like that term so much, you just always push that conservative plough and it takes time to you to notice the change. Brazdeikis, Velicka should make it at 22/23, so it's either 2022EB or 2023WC. Sirvydis should be ready at 22/23, so for him he should make NT in 2023WC or 2024OG. That's my projection anyway. Maybe some of them will have to wait if Kuzminskas, Ulanovas, Giedraitis will hold their own for longer and wings like Brazdeikis, Sirvydis will take time to develop. But PF position is thin so all doors are open for beast Tubelis. Marciulionis is a 2 ways freak GUARD, he will kick out all the doors soon. So, hold your breath Shaw, you'll have to deal with quite few changes in pretty short period.

In 2021-2024 Valanciunas, Sabonis, Grigonis, Jokubaitis should be our key players. Jokubaitis will be the main PG in 2023, 2024 with huge role. So it's a mix of different generations, you emphasize one generation too much. 1992 is nothing but JV (a solid/good FIBA player) and couple of role players, that's all.