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[The Final] Game 90/A: France - Lithuania

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  • Originally posted by Dr. Martin View Post
    You are right! Now I have realized that I am Spanish & US hater I guess
    Just because they are better then rest of the world...
    If that's the only reason, you can stop hating. I mean, if Team USA can get the commitment of their top players, and get them motivated and to take the games seriously, well, I think there isn't much place for discussion. They're clearly the best and have proven it again and again. The caveat is their recruitment process is not always up to the task. But, Spain? There hadn't been a single tournament without a loss, or a game decided in the last seconds. Even when we won WC in Japan, in my mind we really were 3rd: First USA, 2nd Greece. At this level, almost anyone can beat any other team, and who's best clearly cannot be decided on individual matchups, nor even on final standings.

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    • Originally posted by Darrell Armstrong View Post
      Or, to put it in other words, it's not a problem if less talented teams do it. That's exactly the kind of flawed reasoning I'm trying to fight. Please note I've never said spanish players don't flop, don't exaggerate contact, or they never try to fool the refs. They do all the above, but certainly no more, and possibly a little less than most other teams. And yet those actions are viewed in a completely different light because of two absolutely unrelated facts: spanish teams play good basketball, and spanish teams often come up with the win. As I've said before, if a spanish player flops, he's a dirty cheater. Anyone else, he's just a savvy player who's good at drawing fouls.

      Simply consider the possiblity that Spain, being the more talented team, loses a game, or even a title because they refuse to play the referees, while the other team flops and whines their way to victory. Would it be really a good thing for fans, or basketball in general?
      You do realize that it is the same arguments some athlets are using to advocate their use of doping ? "We have the right to do it since other teams would do it against us !" (go figure..).
      No, not all teams have such a pattern towards flopping. Certainly not. Here and there you will find one player, maybe two, who are lazy and stupid enough to think floping will be rewarded. I am sorry to say that i can't find any spanish nt player who never flopped (not talking about rotation ones).

      Again, don't be stubborn about diaw's hard foul or batum's stupid punch on navarro (he was aiming at the ball, and going for an hard foul, even though what he has done was unacceptable) : no injury could stem from those contacts if you pretend to be serious. That's not the same story when you get a contact after jumping and going for the rim.
      And i am not advocating hard fouls, i am saying that if a team decides to play physical, your team is bound to react accordingly. Referees are here to keep the game on reasonable track.

      And batum's 'agression' had nothing to do with your loss during that euro, nor diaw's foul. Better ask your (former) coach why he thought the game was over at half time and why he did not play more aguilar instead of claver.

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      • Originally posted by raph View Post
        You do realize that it is the same arguments some athlets are using to advocate their use of doping ? "We have the right to do it since other teams would do it against us !" (go figure..).
        No, not all teams have such a pattern towards flopping. Certainly not. Here and there you will find one player, maybe two, who are lazy and stupid enough to think floping will be rewarded. I am sorry to say that i can't find any spanish nt player who never flopped (not talking about rotation ones).

        Again, don't be stubborn about diaw's hard foul or batum's stupid punch on navarro (he was aiming at the ball, and going for an hard foul, even though what he has done was unacceptable) : no injury could stem from those contacts if you pretend to be serious. That's not the same story when you get a contact after jumping and going for the rim.
        And i am not advocating hard fouls, i am saying that if a team decides to play physical, your team is bound to react accordingly. Referees are here to keep the game on reasonable track.

        And batum's 'agression' had nothing to do with your loss during that euro, nor diaw's foul. Better ask your (former) coach why he thought the game was over at half time and why he did not play more aguilar instead of claver.
        I'm not sure if you're trolling me or not. Your insistence on accusing me of defending claims which actually you, and only you, are making is quite puzzling. As I am a little naive, I'll assume it's my fault for not making myself clear enough, but it's getting tiresome.

        What you refer to as "flopping" and as "physical play" are actually sides of the same coin. And I'm not advocating neither: it's all about pushing the boundaries of legal play and making believe it's the other player's fault. I'm all against it regardless of who is doing it (meanwhile others seem to think it's OK to do it in some circumstances, where, what a coincidence, would benefit their team of choice). It's true both have similarities with doping: they put untalented individuals on par with players who actually can play the game. If I had a say on the matter (which I don't, sadly), I'd propose much harsher penalties on both. Less flopping and less excessive contact would actually benefit teams relying on skills and talent (such as Spain) and put an end to gameplans based on turning basketball into boring contests of wrestling and free throw shooting (as did a certain team you and I know, hint: not Spain).

        But this ideal dream of mine crashes against reality. Fouls are called according to a human's interpretation of both rules and the game being played. And as referees cannot see it all, nor agree on what amount of contact is fair and what is punishable, the only way to keep up with them is to learn to make more obvious the contact one receives, and less obvious the contact one gives. Every single successful basketball player has learnt to do so. Those who don't are among the unsuccesful ones. Learning how to "be physical" without fouling out, and how to draw fouls are key skills which all elite players have. Now, some of them go too far. Some of them are spaniards, and I'm the first at pointing them out. But of all those you mention, only Rudy's half-brain actually took part in this competition, and was quite tame for his admittedly low standards. As far as I know, there are no flopping schools on Spain, and no flopping gene has ever been found. So I don't quite get why you particularize this trait on spaniards: I can't find any basketball NT player who never flopped, and I'm talking about rotation ones, too.

        It's painful to see people thinking "physical play" is good (or manly), while flopping is bad (or cowardly). As I've said, both have a close relationship. If the referees allowed less contact, we'd see a lot less flopping on the court, as it's the natural resource physically frail players have against tougher players who abuse contact. Even though both actions are despicable, floppers can only hurt themselves, but a hard foul can end up injuring the other player. It's quite clear which one is the most dangerous, and who should be pursued more by regulations and referees.

        Actually, it's quite telling your mention to Diaw's hard foul, one which I've never talked about. Several french players said after the game that particular foul was a turning point for them. Well, anyone can tell spanish players were afraid to drive to the basket afterwards for fear of getting hurt. That's what basketball is all about, don't you think? As for Batum's aggression: ask Google. He himself said he was trying to give Navarro some real contact.

        Finally, I've never questioned France's win against Spain. It's funny you were thinking about that. Quite telling, indeed.

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