Greek & Turkish surnames

[surfer]

So what's the history between Greek and Israeli NT exactly? And when you are saying Israelis, you mean all the naturalised Americans too?

so what? there are most likely players with Turkish heritage in Greek NT. Kaimakoglou (kaimak = kaymak meaning cream and oglou = oğlu meaning "son of" so kaimakoglu = son of cream ) also Perperoglou (perper = berber meaning barber and again oglou = oğlu meaning son of a barber) lol
of course there might be linguistic similarities but these can't be a coincidence

[louie k]

so what? there are most likely players with Turkish heritage in Greek NT. Kaimakoglou (kaimak = kaymak meaning cream and oglou = oğlu meaning "son of" so kaimakoglu = son of cream ) also Perperoglou (perper = berber meaning barber and again oglou = oğlu meaning son of a barber) lol
of course there might be linguistic similarities but these can't be a coincidence

turkish heritage??? their families were GREEKS that lived in turkey many generations ago, thats why they have these surnames... it's like spain claiming carlos boozer(or greivis vasquez) because carlos is a spanish name so he probably somehow has spanish heritage... or greece claiming jason kidd because jason is a greek name...

[UMUT_FB_LAL]

turkish heritage??? their families were GREEKS that lived in turkey many generations ago, thats why they have these surnames... it's like spain claiming carlos boozer(or greivis vasquez) because carlos is a spanish name so he probably somehow has spanish heritage... or greece claiming jason kidd because jason is a greek name...

If you wanna play that game maaaany generations ago there weren't even countries
It's nothing more than the categorizing of people by lines drawn by people
We all came to the world in the same way

And how do you know about his family so many generations ago in the first place?

This is what Wikipedia says by the way


-oglou (-όγλου): a Turkish root (-oğlu, "son of") ending seen in immigrants from Asia Minor.

Examples may include: "Tsolakoglou", "Ardizoglou" and "Patsatzoglou" among many others.

Nationalities aren't DNA's, they are cultures

[UMUT_FB_LAL]

My post was clearly against political stuff though

[baldur]

turkish heritage??? their families were GREEKS that lived in turkey many generations ago, thats why they have these surnames... it's like spain claiming carlos boozer(or greivis vasquez) because carlos is a spanish name so he probably somehow has spanish heritage... or greece claiming jason kidd because jason is a greek name...

their ethnicity was turkish but their religion was christianity. just look at your old presedent karamanlis. karamanlis means also a turkish clan who were banished in the 1930's.

at that time, Forced emmigration didnt only comprise of those who was turkish or greece. it had also considered people's religion. so karamanlis turks had been forced to emmigrate to greece. it was too hard for them live in greece in the beginning due to the fact that they didnt even know greek language.

[goga78]

turkish heritage??? their families were GREEKS that lived in turkey many generations ago, thats why they have these surnames... it's like spain claiming carlos boozer(or greivis vasquez) because carlos is a spanish name so he probably somehow has spanish heritage... or greece claiming jason kidd because jason is a greek name...

Don't you mistake family names with first names? You can name your son David, Jason or Marc but you can't change his family name to Rabinovich, Papamakarios or Plinius.

The other (first) part of your sentence is correct, though.

[mchale]

their ethnicity was turkish but their religion was christianity. just look at your old presedent karamanlis. karamanlis means also a turkish clan who were banished in the 1930's.

at that time, Forced emmigration didnt only comprise of those who was turkish or greece. it had also considered people's religion. so karamanlis turks had been forced to emmigrate to greece. it was too hard for them live in greece in the beginning due to the fact that they didnt even know greek language.

Ottoman empire was a multireligional empire there were turks,greeks,armenians,jews etc.
The various ethnic groups for the most part spoke their language and they had their own religion and they a hafd a distinct identity.
Karamanlides was an exception in that they identified as greek but spoke turkish.But the majority of the other greeks spoke grrek and were christians.
And when we speak of nations in previous eras we have to be careful.
As i said OE was better described as a mulitregional empire where people were grouped mainly be their religion not race.The national identity with the modern sence was later developed in the later stages.that holds for the turks as well..
About the surnames kaimakoglou it's not certain that his ancestors left turkey at 1920,maybe were greeks that always lived in greece although indded probably they migrated from asia minor.

[baldur]

Ottoman empire was a multireligional empire there were turks,greeks,armenians,jews etc.
The various ethnic groups for the most part spoke their language and they had their own religion and they a hafd a distinct identity.
Karamanlides was an exception in that they identified as greek but spoke turkish.But the majority of the other greeks spoke grrek and were christians.
And when we speak of nations in previous eras we have to be careful.
As i said OE was better described as a mulitregional empire where people were grouped mainly be their religion not race.The national identity with the modern sence was later developed in the later stages.that holds for the turks as well..
About the surnames kaimakoglou it's not certain that his ancestors left turkey at 1920,maybe were greeks that always lived in greece although indded probably they migrated from asia minor.

my friend i dont want to continue this irrelative topic but i have to say that karamanlides was a sub-ethnicity of the turkish race. they were speaking turkish with greek alphabet. and also they were christians, not muslims. That Forced emigration had considered people's religion, not ethnicity. so they had to migrate to greece although they were not greeks.

[mchale]

my friend i dont want to continue this irrelative topic but i have to say that karamanlides was a sub-ethnicity of the turkish race. they were speaking turkish with greek alphabet. and also they were christians, not muslims. That Forced emigration had considered people's religion, not ethnicity. so they had to migrate to greece although they were not greeks.

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karamanlides it says that they identified as greeks but ok let's move on

[worldbasketball]

Many Armenian names also have Turkish roots with the added -ian or -yan

*Demirjian - Armenian surname (from Turkish Demir - iron - Demirji ironsmith)
*Kahvejian - Armenian surname (Kahve - coffee (I know they now say ghayfeh instead) - Kahveji - maker of coffee)
*Saatjian - Armenian surname (Saat - hour Saatji - maker or repairer of watches)
*Hakimian / Hekimian - Armenian surname (Hakim, Hekim - clever, wise, also means doctor, ruler, governor)

There are also many Armenian names with Turkish names of places -
*Marashlian (from Kahraman Marash)
*Ainteblian (from Gazi Ainteb)
*Izmirlian (from Izmir)

With some physical attributes - Examples:
*Topalian (walking difficulties)
*Keuseyan (who doesn't have facial hair...)
*Mavisakkalian (bluebearded...)

We have many funny Turkish-based name as well:
*Etiemezian (Etiemez - the one who doesn't eat meat - i.e. vegetarian)
*Jeibideligian (in Turkish, the one who has pockets with holes -- probably meaning very poor...)

==

I can also say the same thing about Arabic names:
*Antabli
*Maraashli

These are particularly common in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq

==

By the way, why Greek-Turkish discussions and Armenian-Turkish discussions degenerate in a second into historical and cultural clashes. If that will be the result of discussions, then don't bring up the subject in the first place, it's safer... We don't need bad feelings from a subject that will have no consequence on basketball, but just create more animosity...

[Levenspiel]

Excellent post, WBB. It's interesting that these names have remained even after some really bad memories. I guess people preferred continuity in family records.

A couple of more from top of my head;
- Kebabjian
- Kiremitjian
- Nalbandian
- Zildjian
- Chakmakian
- Balikian

but that Mavisakkalian is an awesome surname!

[worldbasketball]

Thanks Levenspiel. Don't forget that many Armenians were Turkophones, so it was natural when they moved to other countries, to keep such names. Many didn't have Armenian-based family names...

By the way, in Latin America, that experienced big immigration from all Middle Eastern ethnicities basically from the Ottoman Empire, this was from 19th and very early 20th century (1800 to say 1920s) be they Armenian, Kurd, Arab, Greek, Syriac/Assyrian, they would be called even to this day as "Turkos" (the Turks) even though they may not be Turks at all... For Latin countries (Brazil, Argentina, etc), since the immigrants originated from Ottoman countries, they were Turks... Plus many had very Turkish based names anyway.

In parenthesis, I love a Greek singer (for me he is just legendary, I just adore his music) who died some time back. He was called Nikos Papazoglou. Papaz- religious clergy, -oglou son - basically son of a clergy. Here is one of his beautiful songs which I dedicate to you. It is called "Kaneis edo den tragouda":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE6sTiKGxLA

He enjoyed great popularity in Turkey and they would sing his songs. Here his song in Turkish but beautifully covered, but staying very genuine to the original I must say as a sign of respect. This is Fuat Saka in "Şimdi Ne Yapar" which I also dedicate to you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIvIDeJ9WPQ

Since you enjoyed it, here are some more Armenian surnames of very Turkish origin:
-Altunian (silver)
-Aslanian (genuine)
-Azizian (dear)
-Balian (honey)
-Bozian (blond)
-Boyajian (painter, or shoe polisher)
-Chakmakjian (lighter)
-Cholakian (problems with the shoulders, physical defect)
-Deukmejian
-Ekizian (pairs, twins)
-Ekmekjian (maker of bread)
-Gulbenkian
-Hadjetian
-Istanbulian
-Jambazian (athlete, sportsman)
-Kharpoutian (from Kharput, Kharpet, a Turkish city, now called Elâzığ)
-Papazian (lower ranking usually married clergy)
-Sarafian (money exchanger)
-Yardemian (helper)

[Levenspiel]

Thank you, WBB.

Yep, I think your explanation makes sense. I have colleagues from Latin America, and they've been telling me the same about "los Turcos" . They're mostly Lebanese in Venezuela, for example.

Great songs by the way, thanks again. You're right about Papazoglou's popularity in Turkey, as his music easily captures our music taste as well. in general Greek songs are fairly well known, sometimes in original, but mostly thorough covers.

One interesting thing about Armenian surnames is that they usually define a person who specializes on a certain manual work/art; ie., an artisan/craftsmen. That matches with the common knowledge/legend that most crafts during Ottoman times were performed dominantly by Armenians. It is still the case in places like Mardin and Hatay (Antakya) (my hometown, btw), etc. I used to work at furniture workshop in Iskenderun for 4 years in my youth; and our grand master (the master of my boss) was an Armenian.

[Victorious]

Greek surnames of Turkish origin are a leftover of the administration of the Ottoman empire. It has nothing to do with their origin. Same is true for Greek surnames in regions of Greece who were once under Venetian occupation. The ending -poulos is the Italian equivalent (polo) of the Turkish -oglou, which means -son of. Yet, these people are not Italian, they are Greeks.

Similarly, the majority of Turks have Turkish surnames, but as most people who are interested in history know that many Turks have native Anatolian origin. There was a process of Turcification in the Ottoman empire (especially in Anatolia), so many ethnic groups had to adapt to Turkish rule. The Greeks of Asia minor had much more assimilation pressure that Greeks from the mainland. Hence the Turkish surnames. The Greeks from Asia Minor tend to carry those names with pride, showing that they had to go through a lot to retain their identity.

Someone mentioned Karamanlides. This is a different case compared to Greeks from the coastal areas. The Karamanlides are a Byzantine leftover of Hellenized Anatolians. They are a fragment of Anatolians who made all the Ottoman sacrifices (change of names, language), but retained the Greek orthodox religion. Had they changed their religion too, as most Anatolians did, they would simply be regarded as Turks.

Every Hellenic element in Asia Minor has its roots prior to the Ottoman empire. Hellenization during the Ottoman empire was absolutely out of the question. By today's standards, that would be similar to villages in Afghanistan leaving Islam and converting to Christianity. That is simply an anathema.

[Levenspiel]

That's interesting view, Victorious. but it doesn't really match well with what I personally thought.

I didn't know there was a Turcification in Ottoman time, for example (i.e., before 1920). That started in Anatolia after 1923, by official foundation of Turkish Republic, in line with nation-state ideals prevailing all over the Balkans. Ottomans on the other hand did not care what your ethnicity was. it's natural that there was a cultural influence, since we are talking about 300-600 years of occupation, but it was not a state strategy.

As a person living in Balkans for last 6 years, I always thought these stories about extreme ethnic/religious pressures were made up to fuel/sustain nationalistic feelings. Serbians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Greeks, etc all separately claim they could keep their identity for such a long time, because had a very strong religious and ethnic background. Well, it should not be that difficult if everybody could keep it, no? I sincerely find it childish, but apparently very practical .

Anatolian people today are a huge mix, who simply define themselves as Turkish with various backgrounds. To go beyond that is very difficult.