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Greece-FYROM quarrel: What do the people think?

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  • #16
    Just to clear up some things lets have a look at the historical roots of the conflict.

    The ancient region of Makedonia (where Alexander the Great came from) became a part of the Roman Empire as the province Macedonia in 148 b.c. after it lost the Makedonian – Roman wars. With the split of the empire 395 a.d. it became a part of the eastern empire.
    The biggest part of the ancient Makedonia is located today in Greece, while minor parts belong to FYROM and Bulgaria. The biggest part of todays FYROM was called Paionia in ancient times, a kingdom that was conquered by Makedonia.
    In the 6th/7th century a.d. slavic people – who became an important part of the Byzantine empire - began to populate northern Makedonia. Two monks from Saloniki – Kyrillos and Methodios – began to christianize them in the 9th century and developed an alphabet for them, the Glagolitic alphabet. Later on students of the monks developed the Cyrillic alphabet (which is named after Kyrillos).
    In the following times Makedonia belonged both to the Byzantine Empire and to Bulgaria, until it came to Serbia in the end of the 13th century. Not for long though, as in the 14th century – after the battles of Maritza and Boj na Kosovu – Makedonia became a part of the Ottoman Empire for the next 500 years.
    1913/1913 the first Balkan War was waged between the Balkan League (Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria and Montenegro) and the Ottoman Empire. The 2nd Balkan War began 1913 between the former allies, resulting in Bulgaria losing most of the Makedonian territory it claimed after the first Balkan War. Greece gained the biggest part of the Region, including Saloniki and Kavala. During World War I Bulgaria conquered the region again but lost it after the war, same applies to World War II.
    After World War II plans for a communist Great-Makedonia failed after the split between Tito and Stalin, and the Yugoslav part of Makedonia together with the biggest part of what was called Paionia in ancient times became the 6th Republic of the Yugoslav Federation, the Socialist Republic of Macedonia.
    On November 19th 1991 this part of Yugoslavia declared its independence as the “Republic of Macedonia”, presenting the Star of Vergina (which is also the sign of the greek province of Makedonia) as their national flag. The biggest problem between Greece and FYROM became the constitution of FYROM though, which claimed to be in the tradition of the Republic of Krushevo, a Republic that wanted a state in the borders of the entire geographical region of Makedonia. After maps from Slavic - Macedonian nationalists appeared, on which the greek part of Makedonia was added to the northern part, Greece saw its territorial integrity endangered and began an embargo against FYROM in 1994. As Greece is by far the biggest investor in FYROM and 80% of FYROMs imports went through the port of Saloniki, the situation ended soon with a change of the flag and constitution. A paragraph was added to Article 3, that says: “The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.” Another paragraph was added to Article 49: “In the exercise of this concern the Republic will not interfere in the sovereign rights of other states or in their internal affairs.”
    After these changes the embargo ended and the situation was more relaxed ever since. In the last few years talks went on about the name of FYROM. The 2004 UN proposal “Republika Makedonija-Skopje“ was refused by FYROM and Greece. Greece said that it was a basis for constructive negotiations though, while FYROM proposed that the official name should be “Republic of Macedonia” while Greece and other countries that didn’t accept that name yet (mainly the EU) could officially use “Republika Makedonija-Skopje“ – which was refused by Greece. Recently there were signs that Greece would also accept the name “Vardar-Macedonia” (which is the name of FYROM from Serbian times). A decision in the conflict should not be too far away anyways.

    I left away the discussions about Greek and Slavic origins, as well as the Bulgaria – FYROM situation, JCN is the main main for that
    I also left out the debate whether the name Macedonia in FYROM and the Macedonian roots were made up by communist propaganda or not.

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    • #17
      Good lord dude, how bored r u ?? Use some paragrafs next time I read it though i knew the facts
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      • #18
        This is interesting, while Greeks analyze their history, the rest of the world call FYROM as Macedonia, fyromians as macedonians, and none has any problems

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        • #19
          Originally posted by NaF
          This is interesting, while Greeks analyze their history, the rest of the world call FYROM as Macedonia, fyromians as macedonians, and none has any problems
          That's exactly what makes it all the more frustrating. The ignorance of the rest of the world about the situation.
          The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by qiangdade
            Good lord dude, how bored r u ?? Use some paragrafs next time I read it though i knew the facts
            Lol, ya know, there are these days when you're thankful for everything that distracts your attention from the work you actually should do. Today is one of those days

            Originally posted by NaF
            This is interesting, while Greeks analyze their history, the rest of the world call FYROM as Macedonia, fyromians as macedonians, and none has any problems
            If it was that easy... Of course there has also been the FYROM - Bulgaria quarrel (In short: Bulgaria accepted FYROM as an independent state but claimed that there's no Macedonian nation nor language. From the Bulgarian point of view the inhabitants of FYROM are of bulgarian origin and the language is a bulgarian dialect - an opinion that is shared by many people in Greece btw), the situation with the Albanians in FYROM and the general interest (or lack thereof) of countries such as the US (accepted the name "Republic of Macedonia in 2004) or EU members (most of them use the name FYROM) in the region.
            And I'm not bored enough to go into the details here, that'd fill several pages most likely

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
              That's exactly what makes it all the more frustrating. The ignorance of the rest of the world about the situation.
              This can be copied anywhere else I think.


              "...uh, is there anyone, like, cool in here?"

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              • #22
                No really...what about "slavomacedonia" or "slavic republic of macedonia" or something similar?
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                • #23
                  Slavomacedonia is my favourite (realistic) alternative. Even though I would prefer Vardar above all.
                  The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
                    It's not as simple as that. By claiming the name they also claim the heritage, the history and everythng relating to the Macedonian civillization.
                    So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.

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                    • #25
                      So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.
                      if mexico wants to call itself persia and claim that heritage noone would care because noone would believe that mexico has abything to do with persia!
                      if japan change it's name into macedonia is the same thing noone would care because everyone knows that japan has nothing to do with ancient macedonia!
                      but here things are different!the problem is what JCN said.the ignorance of the rest of the world.because when somone living in china not knowing what is the situation in balkans hears that there is a nation with the name macedonia he will believe that ancient macedonians where fyromians!
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DarkoMVP
                        So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.

                        I wish things were as "cool" as that, but rightly so (IMO) they are not. As I said before it's not about geographical regions or names per se it's about the historical heritage. Surely, if Mexico adopts the name Persia it wouldn't be much of a deal. What about if Iraq chose to do so though? It's the proximity that causes the (erroneous) association, my friend.

                        When theft of one's identity and historical heritage takes place in cold blood, I'm afraid that it does hurt a lot.
                        The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DarkoMVP
                          There is both a state and a city called Washington. There is a Georgia that is a country in Eastern Europe and a state in the United States.. Hell, there are two countries named Congo right next to each other.
                          Actually, the official names are ' Republic of Congo' and 'Congo-Brazzaville'. To make a distinction.
                          This is however not the point. There are about 4 cities in the U.S.A alone who are called Athens. Like Athens, Georgia. But the situation in the Balkans is different.

                          It's ridiculous to stop something from calling itself whatever it want, it has no real significance and it's certainly a sovereign right.
                          It is not that simple.

                          I agree that everybody has the sovereign right to call itself whatever it wants, but as long as it does not deprive others from its own right to selfdetermination.

                          Remember that not only the country is baptised Macedonia, but also the nation and the language.
                          This is a form of monopolization.

                          Think about it. If Northern Greece was to claim indipendence. What name would they obtain. Greek-Macedonia? Northern Greece? Would the name ' Macedonia' be an option. No, I think not. Because a Macedonian nation would allready exist.

                          Politics
                          PAO EUROPEAN CHAMPION 1996 - 2000 - 2002 - 2007 - 2009 - 2011

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Victorious
                            Greece claims no territory whatsoever from FYROMacedonia. They simply do not agree that the country should be called ' Macedonia', because it also corresponds to the Northern Greek province of Macedonia which has its own distinctive Macedonian heritage.

                            A similair example can be found in France. A part of Western France near the English channel is called Brittagne (Brittain). It is because of this reason that the official name of Great Brittain is 'United Kingdom'.

                            The official name is 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'
                            Soon though Scotland will not be part of the Union, i believe.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Victorious
                              Think about it. If Northern Greece was to claim indipendence. What name would they obtain. Greek-Macedonia? Northern Greece? Would the name ' Macedonia' be an option. No, I think not. Because a Macedonian nation would allready exist.

                              Politics
                              So, how strong Northern Greece a.k.a. Macedonia basketball team will be?
                              The Moon Is A SCAM(http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm)!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by LuDux
                                So, how strong Northern Greece a.k.a. Macedonia basketball team will be?
                                Hatzivrettas
                                Diamantidis
                                Tsartsaris
                                Papadopoulos
                                Zisis
                                Big Sofo
                                Mavrokefalidis
                                Vassileiadis



                                Also see:http://forums.interbasket.net/showthread.php?t=1952
                                The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

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