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Thread: Greece-FYROM quarrel: What do the people think?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Digdis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
    That's exactly what makes it all the more frustrating. The ignorance of the rest of the world about the situation.
    This can be copied anywhere else I think.

  2. #22
    Senior Member qiangdade's Avatar
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    No really...what about "slavomacedonia" or "slavic republic of macedonia" or something similar?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Slavomacedonia is my favourite (realistic) alternative. Even though I would prefer Vardar above all.
    The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

  4. #24
    Senior Member DarkoMVP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
    It's not as simple as that. By claiming the name they also claim the heritage, the history and everythng relating to the Macedonian civillization.
    So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.

  5. #25
    Senior Member rchos7's Avatar
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    So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.
    if mexico wants to call itself persia and claim that heritage noone would care because noone would believe that mexico has abything to do with persia!
    if japan change it's name into macedonia is the same thing noone would care because everyone knows that japan has nothing to do with ancient macedonia!
    but here things are different!the problem is what JCN said.the ignorance of the rest of the world.because when somone living in china not knowing what is the situation in balkans hears that there is a nation with the name macedonia he will believe that ancient macedonians where fyromians!
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkoMVP
    So France is wrong in claiming the heritage of the Franks, even though they lived in Germany and the Netherlands as well? If Mexico wants to call itself "Persia" and claim that heritage, good for them, it's just a name, it doesn't hurt anyone who lives Iran.

    I wish things were as "cool" as that, but rightly so (IMO) they are not. As I said before it's not about geographical regions or names per se it's about the historical heritage. Surely, if Mexico adopts the name Persia it wouldn't be much of a deal. What about if Iraq chose to do so though? It's the proximity that causes the (erroneous) association, my friend.

    When theft of one's identity and historical heritage takes place in cold blood, I'm afraid that it does hurt a lot.
    The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Victorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkoMVP
    There is both a state and a city called Washington. There is a Georgia that is a country in Eastern Europe and a state in the United States.. Hell, there are two countries named Congo right next to each other.
    Actually, the official names are ' Republic of Congo' and 'Congo-Brazzaville'. To make a distinction.
    This is however not the point. There are about 4 cities in the U.S.A alone who are called Athens. Like Athens, Georgia. But the situation in the Balkans is different.

    It's ridiculous to stop something from calling itself whatever it want, it has no real significance and it's certainly a sovereign right.
    It is not that simple.

    I agree that everybody has the sovereign right to call itself whatever it wants, but as long as it does not deprive others from its own right to selfdetermination.

    Remember that not only the country is baptised Macedonia, but also the nation and the language.
    This is a form of monopolization.

    Think about it. If Northern Greece was to claim indipendence. What name would they obtain. Greek-Macedonia? Northern Greece? Would the name ' Macedonia' be an option. No, I think not. Because a Macedonian nation would allready exist.

    Politics

  8. #28
    Senior Member HIGHLANDER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious
    Greece claims no territory whatsoever from FYROMacedonia. They simply do not agree that the country should be called ' Macedonia', because it also corresponds to the Northern Greek province of Macedonia which has its own distinctive Macedonian heritage.

    A similair example can be found in France. A part of Western France near the English channel is called Brittagne (Brittain). It is because of this reason that the official name of Great Brittain is 'United Kingdom'.

    The official name is 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'
    Soon though Scotland will not be part of the Union, i believe.

  9. #29
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious
    Think about it. If Northern Greece was to claim indipendence. What name would they obtain. Greek-Macedonia? Northern Greece? Would the name ' Macedonia' be an option. No, I think not. Because a Macedonian nation would allready exist.

    Politics
    So, how strong Northern Greece a.k.a. Macedonia basketball team will be?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuDux
    So, how strong Northern Greece a.k.a. Macedonia basketball team will be?
    Hatzivrettas
    Diamantidis
    Tsartsaris
    Papadopoulos
    Zisis
    Big Sofo
    Mavrokefalidis
    Vassileiadis



    Also see:http://forums.interbasket.net/showthread.php?t=1952
    The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
    Hatzivrettas
    Diamantidis
    Tsartsaris
    Papadopoulos
    Zisis
    Big Sofo
    Mavrokefalidis
    Vassileiadis



    Also see:http://forums.interbasket.net/showthread.php?t=1952
    I thought Papadopoulos was a Russian originally???
    Or am I completely in the wrong here?
    Does anyone know how old he was when coming to Greece if he, infact, was not born and raised in Greece?

  12. #32
    Banned turkishpower's Avatar
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    I don't get it. Does Greece want Macedonian lands to be Greek, too? WTF, Macedonians are not Greeks, they deserve their own lands. Yes, they were ruled by Greeks-Turks before, but right now there is no way Macedonia can be a Greek land.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishpower
    I don't get it. Does Greece want Macedonian lands to be Greek, too? WTF, Macedonians are not Greeks, they deserve their own lands. Yes, they were ruled by Greeks-Turks before, but right now there is no way Macedonia can be a Greek land.
    Makedonia was never ruled by greeks.....
    Makedonia (at least the ancient one) was greek from the start, founded by greeks (at least according to Herodotus "father of history", i hope u know him).
    The state of FYROM was named "Makedonia" only in 1944 by Tito, so as to serve his own political interests (u can read Foreign Office 1944 for more details, i'm too bored to help u).

    p.s. One small detail for all of u. Even for the FYROM's side of story founders of the Makedonian dynasty were Amyntas, Filippos and Alexander the Great.

    ALL OF those names r greek.
    Filippos=one who loves horses
    Alexander=one that keeps man away
    and Makedonia comes from makednon=tall, high at least according to Homer
    (8th century BC).

    p.s.1 I have no problem if the state of FYROM will be named afterall Makedonia. I would preffer though names like Northern Makedonia, SlavoMakedonia etc.

    p.s.2 I also have no problem if China is called Asia.....

  15. #35
    Senior Member EverGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy
    I thought Papadopoulos was a Russian originally???
    Or am I completely in the wrong here?
    Does anyone know how old he was when coming to Greece if he, infact, was not born and raised in Greece?
    Lazos Papadopoulos grew up in Russia since his grandfather has emigrated there as a communist after the 2nd world war. He and his family (as many others) returned to Greece in the 1990's when the government wanted to put right, the wrongs of Greece's policies. There were actually about 400,000 communist Greeks that emigrated to communist countries between 1947 and 1967 because they were the "black sheep" of Greek society and were regarded as second and third class citizens because of their political beleife and many had been persecuted and sent into exile or self -exile.

    Some other examples are from football, Dimitris Papadopoulos who plays for PAO who grew up in Uzbekistan, Gerasimos Tzakis who played for the Romanian NT in basketball.
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  16. #36
    Senior Member c_fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishpower
    I don't get it. Does Greece want Macedonian lands to be Greek, too? WTF, Macedonians are not Greeks, they deserve their own lands. Yes, they were ruled by Greeks-Turks before, but right now there is no way Macedonia can be a Greek land.
    Where exactly in this thread you got the idea that we want to take over Fyrom?
    Did any Greek here objected to the Fyrom people having a land of their own?

  17. #37
    Senior Member rchos7's Avatar
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    this thread is becoming dangerous!
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  18. #38
    Senior Member Trifilli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian
    Reading this site - which looks more like a propaganda than a scientific site - I think I have to clarify a few things regarding the scientific debate about the origin of the Makedonians and their language.
    The vast majority of german historians (note that I'm not talking about historians from Greece or FYROM here) agrees that the Makedonians were a greek tribe. And the vast majority of german linguists agrees that the Makedonian language was a greek dialect. However there's no 100% security on that matter and a very small number of historians claim that the original Makedonians were a mixture of Thracians, Illyrians and Phrygians, while a minority of linguists claims that the makedonian language was no dialect but a seperate language, related to the greek one.
    There's no debate and no doubt however about the fact that the Makedonians were no slavic people, that they did not speak a slavic language and that the first slavic settlers in the region didn't arrive until the 6th/7th century AD.
    And while Athenian demagoges like Demosthenes called the Makedonians "barbarians" in polemic speeches, this certainly is not the case for all greek states - politics even back then
    And one thing is for sure: Alexander the Greek adored the greek culture, wanted to be greek and claimed to be greek - something that certainly is no coincidence as his teacher was the famous Aristoteles. And it is also no coincidence that the era of hellenism begins with Alexander (first detailed work by Johann Gustav Droysen in his "Geschichte des Hellinismus" 1836/1843, later extended and updated by many german historians). Droysen certainly goes too far when he claims that Alexander was the "saviour" of the greeks, that he was the one to complete a national unification of the greeks for the first time and this was the peak of greek history - a belief certainly influenced by his hope for a united Germany with Alexander and the Greeks as role models for future developments in Germany. However Droysen (and others who examined his work and added more objective parts on that matter) created the basis for the modern scientific debate and view on these things.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishpower
    I don't get it. Does Greece want Macedonian lands to be Greek, too? WTF, Macedonians are not Greeks, they deserve their own lands. Yes, they were ruled by Greeks-Turks before, but right now there is no way Macedonia can be a Greek land.
    I do apologise but that's pure ignorance! (No offense). Did you even read anything so far? Do you even know what the argument is about?

    What land? Did anyone talk about lands? We are talking about the right to use a name! Yes FYROMians are not greeks, but they are neither Macedonians. They have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonians. Slavic people were not even in Europe at the time Ancient Macedonians existed. That's the argument. Not about greeks claiming the FYROMian lands!

    And I see that you are sensitive and you want people to have their own lands. I suppose though that this applies only for selected cases of nations but not for others (see Kurds). Oh, I forgot, most of them don't really want their own land...

    I do apologise about the tone of this post, but reading uninformative and random comments on a serious issue like that gets me in the head.
    Last edited by Juan Carlos Nadal; 11-04-2006 at 09:50 PM.
    The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

  20. #40
    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian

    Haha, i see they try to attack some greek claims (a selected group of them that are easy to attack) but they are not even trying to attempt to defend their own weaknesses. How can they be macedonians given that they are slavs and only decended in Europe in 9BC? How can they be macedonians, when their language is not eve remotely related to the language the macedonians used. What does "Macedonia" mean in their language? What does "Phillip" mean in their language? What does "Alexander" mean in their language?
    The Euroleague Organization and Mr Bertomeu are like the Bulgarian Government: corrupt, partially stupid, and a huge underestimator of people's intelligence.

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