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Thread: Domantas Sabonis thread

  1. #401

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    Quote Originally Posted by zalias View Post
    everyone is double/triple teaming jv
    False. Stop making things in your mind and re-watch the games against Australia and France. Both games in youtube. No-one double teamed JV. It wouldn't make any sense. Gobert is the best defensive center in the world, Baynes is exactly valued for his tough and solid D in the NBA. There's tons of superstitions grown around JV.

    Sabonis was doubled couple of times against France (but that's it) because he was too big and strong at 4 causing a theoretical mismatch, but JV wasn't doubled.

    PS: He never was tripled teamed in his life. I actually would beg you to show me a triple teaming in conteporary basketball Could you post me here an example?
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  2. #402
    Senior Member LuDux's Avatar
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    When Australia took away the passing lanes into the post or doubled or even triple-teamed the big man, the Lithuanian guards and wings found the driving lanes wide open for easy baskets.
    https://probballreport.com/raptors-j...-in-91-78-win/


    With Jonas Valanciunas being double (and even triple teamed) at times, someone else had to step up
    http://www.raptorscage.ca/post-game-repolow-out-pacers/


    Makes JVs job that much harder as he constantly gets double and triple teamed down low.
    https://forums.raptorsrepublic.com/f...ciunas/page413


    Jonas pradėjo geriau matyti aikštę, prieš dvigubą ir trigubą gynybą nebe pats ją primityviai lauždamas, o greitai ir tiksliai atrasdamas komandos draugą.
    https://www.15min.lt/24sek/naujiena/...as-875-1194644


    Instead the Toronto Raptors center found himself double-, even triple-teamed and worn down in waves
    https://www.espn.com/olympics/basket...robasket-title

  3. #403
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    it's really laughable at this point how much SF is obsessed with hating on JV and I have no idea really where it's coming from. If JV is so bad and Domas is so great why did Jonas have a much better FIBA tournament this summer then? Wasn't he the best scorer, the best rebounder and the most efficient player on our team, or was it just an illusion really? Maybe SF would try to explain to us then why is Jonas currently the best player on the NBA team Grizzlies and finished last season averaging 20 pts and 11 rebs for them? Or is that a conspiracy as well to make him look much better than he really is? It seems like this poster in living in his own dream land and sees things that nobody else can really see lmao...even his defense has improved by leaps and bounds compared to his teenage days, as he is much stronger and more exprienced now. Give it up SF - your ramblings have no connetion with reality and our NT will go as far as JV can take it as a BEST player on it, because right now there is no one even close to him (not even your darling Domas is on his level right now)

    oh, and the bogus stat about "generating the most points" - another gem coming from this poster
    Nowhere in NBA or even FIBA such stat exists, so it must be another product of SF's imagination. However, the efficiency stat is prevalent in both competitions and JV is always at the top or near the top of it - that's why he starts and plays in the NBA and SF can only hate and try to undermine his impact
    Last edited by madmax; 10-23-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  4. #404

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    Ludux, solid take, but I asked video footage. The thing is that triple teaming is situation when three players instantly collapse on the opponent once he receives the ball. Show me this. This stuff that is being called triple teaming in articles you got is more of a scoring in traffic. Many players, specially bigs get into that situation surounded by three or even four players, but that's not triple teaming. My point is that in todays basketball triple teaming is just too risky, pretty crazy idea to make it as a game plan, one decent pass and you're trouble.

    madmax, I can repeat myself. It has nothing to do with hate. I'm long term JV's fan, but not a homer. The thing that you see my arguments as hate shows that you have personal issues with different opinions about JV and tolerate only positive treatment ignoring or bashing negative. And my goal is not to convince Sabonis is better. I wasn't happy with Sabonis performance in 2019 WC. Generally speaking I was disappointed. Why Valanciunas is the best player of Grizzlies? Because he is Simple. He was last season to be precise. JV is an elite scoring big in NBA, did I ever said other wise? But there's another side of the court you know. That's why he's out of ESPN radars for three years now. Slow centers who can't rotate in the whole court is a dying bread. Do you call ESPN analytics an idiots living in their own deams as well?

    I already named my arguments step by step, maybe it's time to you to dig it or to contra-argument? Here's couple of question for you- does JV can quickly rotate and step out at D end? Can JV switch in p'n'r situations and to stay with a guard? (we've seen plenty of that in WC this September) Can JV hedge and recover in p'n'r sitations? Can he blitz the p'n'r? Is JV a good passer? Would you treat JV as high IQ payer overall? Wouldn't you think he's a little too big and too slow for conteporary basketball?

    Until you answer this with arguments, it's just a hardcore fan's of JV who can't tolerate criticism rant.
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  5. #405
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Ludux, solid take, but I asked video footage. The thing is that triple teaming is situation when three players instantly collapse on the opponent once he receives the ball. Show me this. This stuff that is being called triple teaming in articles you got is more of a scoring in traffic. Many players, specially bigs get into that situation surounded by three or even four players, but that's not triple teaming. My point is that in todays basketball triple teaming is just too risky, pretty crazy idea to make it as a game plan, one decent pass and you're trouble.

    madmax, I can repeat myself. It has nothing to do with hate. I'm long term JV's fan, but not a homer. The thing that you see my arguments as hate shows that you have personal issues with different opinions about JV and tolerate only positive treatment ignoring or bashing negative. And my goal is not to convince Sabonis is better. I wasn't happy with Sabonis performance in 2019 WC. Generally speaking I was disappointed. Why Valanciunas is the best player of Grizzlies? Because he is Simple. He was last season to be precise. JV is an elite scoring big in NBA, did I ever said other wise? But there's another side of the court you know. That's why he's out of ESPN radars for three years now. Slow centers who can't rotate in the whole court is a dying bread. Do you call ESPN analytics an idiots living in their own deams as well?

    I already named my arguments step by step, maybe it's time to you to dig it or to contra-argument? Here's couple of question for you- does JV can quickly rotate and step out at D end? Can JV switch in p'n'r situations and to stay with a guard? (we've seen plenty of that in WC this September) Can JV hedge and recover in p'n'r sitations? Can he blitz the p'n'r? Is JV a good passer? Would you treat JV as high IQ payer overall? Wouldn't you think he's a little too big and too slow for conteporary basketball?

    Until you answer this with arguments, it's just a hardcore fan's of JV who can't tolerate criticism rant.
    and here we go again with the P'n'r defense argument - beating a dead horse is your favorite past time hobby, isn't it?
    Let me clarify this for you once again - no traditional center in NBA is capable of succesfully hedging, recovering and defending the three point line against today's super athletic and quick guards. Shaq couldn't do it and didn't even bother to step out of the painted area - was he unplayable too in your opinion? The only true 7 footer who could do it recently was Garnett and even he got away with moving screens and pushing most of the time (coz he was a superstar and refs treat them differently than regular players). So yeah, I think you get my point here. A center's area of operation is the painted area, let the other guards do the job on the perimeter. And most of the today's elite bigs don't even bother to defend guards on the perimeter - they have the schemes in the team defense to hide their weaknesses and make their life easier defensively. JV is very valuable and efficient player in NBA and he's a solid rim protector too, that's why he was playing around 30 mins for Grizz last season and was their leader in those games too

  6. #406

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    That's why almost all, like literally, traditional 7 feet centers are gone from TOP 100 NBA payers lists. There's few chubby guys like Jokic and Marc Gasol at top 50 because of their brilliant BB IQ and all around skills, but that's it. JV can play more than 20 minutes for a non-playoffs team, but he was a 18min player for contender Raptors. It's just how the ball game shaped. Don't put Shaq here, LOL. Shaq was fighting with Arvydas Sabonis in the conference finals you know, a bit different time line Not only that basically all slow centers becoming extinct in today's basketball, you missing the moment that JV simply has low IQ at defensive end, it's not only about his slow feet, but it's about low IQ that you can't fix.

    The point of my rants here to show the reality ticket to stubborn Lithuanian fans who still can't catch up with latest BB reality. No-one in NBA is building around slow, traditional centers with low BB IQ. No-one does that in FIBA as well. The key is to stop pretending we are winning anything building the team around JV. He is a solid player, but not a guy to go. Grizzlies also won't make JV a No.1 or No.2 option when they will be on a serious winning mode. Why? Because it's impossible.
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  7. #407
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    That's why almost all, like literally, traditional 7 feet centers are gone from TOP 100 NBA payers lists. There's few chubby guys like Jokic and Marc Gasol at top 50 because of their brilliant BB IQ and all around skills, but that's it. JV can play more than 20 minutes for a non-playoffs team, but he was a 18min player for contender Raptors. It's just how the ball game shaped. Don't put Shaq here, LOL. Shaq was fighting with Arvydas Sabonis in the conference finals you know, a bit different time line Not only that basically all slow centers becoming extinct in today's basketball, you missing the moment that JV simply has low IQ at defensive end, it's not only about his slow feet, but it's about low IQ that you can't fix.

    The point of my rants here to show the reality ticket to stubborn Lithuanian fans who still can't catch up with latest BB reality. No-one in NBA is building around slow, traditional centers with low BB IQ. No-one does that in FIBA as well. The key is to stop pretending we are winning anything building the team around JV. He is a solid player, but not a guy to go. Grizzlies also won't make JV a No.1 or No.2 option when they will be on a serious winning mode. Why? Because it's impossible.
    the only issue is that this slow, low IQ (in your opinion) JV is still by far our best player...if we had at least one guard of NBA quality like Sabas had Marciulionis back in the day, our NT team would be at the top of the rankings again. It's a simple lack of talent my dear friend - one player can't do anything, even if his name is Jordan or Lebron James

  8. #408

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    the only issue is that this slow, low IQ (in your opinion) JV is still by far our best player...if we had at least one guard of NBA quality like Sabas had Marciulionis back in the day, our NT team would be at the top of the rankings again. It's a simple lack of talent my dear friend - one player can't do anything, even if his name is Jordan or Lebron James
    He's not by far best player. I'm not even talking that even current young Sabonis is already better player at FIBA because of his quickness, flexibility, ability to pass the ball. JV can't really stand out from other players either. Lekavicius outscored JV per minute, that's enough said.

    But here's the thing. Let's imagine the idea that JV is our best player is correct. Would you still build around your best player if you would know that it doesn't lead to success? We are exactly in this situation almost. The thing is that we are not winning medals with building around JV so it doesn't matter how good or bad he is, we are not achieving our goal with him as the focal point. The solution is to understand that and to build a system which is the best under current material we have and it's defenetly not robotic pounding the ball inside all the time. Also it means we badly need to rebuild and to push integration of talent if we have any, and we do. That's that.
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  9. #409
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    He's not by far best player. I'm not even talking that even current young Sabonis is already better player at FIBA because of his quickness, flexibility, ability to pass the ball. JV can't really stand out from other players either. Lekavicius outscored JV per minute, that's enough said.

    But here's the thing. Let's imagine the idea that JV is our best player is correct. Would you still build around your best player if you would know that it doesn't lead to success? We are exactly in this situation almost. The thing is that we are not winning medals with building around JV so it doesn't matter how good or bad he is, we are not achieving our goal with him as the focal point. The solution is to understand that and to build a system which is the best under current material we have and it's defenetly not robotic pounding the ball inside all the time. Also it means we badly need to rebuild and to push integration of talent if we have any, and we do. That's that.
    right, so once again you're deflecting all of the blame for our losses on JV, not the subpar guards or LKL level coach who led us to two straight 1/8 final exits in two consecutive tournaments...it just has to be JV's fault, because, you know, of reasons

  10. #410

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    right, so once again you're deflecting all of the blame for our losses on JV, not the subpar guards or LKL level coach who led us to two straight 1/8 final exits in two consecutive tournaments...it just has to be JV's fault, because, you know, of reasons
    Not right, incorrect. Would I ever blame JV for something what he is generally not supposed to do, but nevertheless was asked to? It's not his fault. I never said that if we wouldn't emphasize JV as the main horse we would win medals. What I'm saying we are surely not winning medals trying to make him the main horse. That's huge difference. Even if we lack talent at the moment generally, Adomaitis could have enough brains not to put JV in p'n'r situations (he had to be benched) in the key defensive moments of key games of the tournament.
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  11. #411

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    Watched first Pacers game. A lot of new faces. There's no chemistry between the players yet. I'm not sold on new PG and one of the leaders Malcom Bragdon. The guy obviously doesn't understand Pacers sharing the ball philosophy. Blew plenty of p'n'r angles and went for lower % his own shot. Hopefully it's just a matte of time. Lamb looked lost, so did T. J. Warren. This team badly need Oladipo as the glue guy in the perimeter, he would put everything into their places.
    Sabonis and Tuner looked dynamic. Sabonis finally unleashed and he will face around thirty minutes this season easily. Will be interesting how his body will adapt to that because he likes to bang inside and hustle all the time, he will need to learn the spots where he can save energy, he can't play the same way as he did last 2 previous seasons.
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  12. #412
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Shawshank, you have your right to have opinion, it's just that I can't agree with it a tiny bit.


    Star bigs are easily the best point generators in their teams. Remember Stojakovic, Nowitzki, Pau gasol, or the same our Sabas? Those were stars. JV is not, he is simply a player from different category. Why to bother to call him a star? False illusions to feed our vanity? It's not even the case that JV can't match those legends, it's the case he can't match our previous stars as Macijauskas, Jasikevicius, Siskauskas and the last true star healthy Kleiza. He's not even in that category in FIBA. JV never generated more than 20pts and he is treated as an offensive player while being huge liability at D.

    How JV is by far better than any player in the NT aside Sabonis if he was 4th in generating points in the NT? I mean 4th, and he's still by far the best player? He's best in your mind, but not NT reality. I agree that Sabas, along with Marciulionis, were by far best players. Could you imagine Sabonis and marciulionis backing down to some Grigonis, Lekavicius, Kalnietis?

    Ok, let's leave assists aside. Pure scoring. 2 key games against elite teams (france, aussies). Who was the best scorer? Grigonis with 29pts. Than Lekavicius and JV both 25pts. Kalnietis 21pts, Sabonis 19pts. Even in pure scoring JV can't stand out and he build his stats in the last game against trashy opponent. JV is not a standout in FIBA and not a star.

    Who says Lithuania is going to win medals soon? I didn't. If we will win anything it won't be JV who will lead NT. It will be team's effort and Grigonis, Lekavicius will be closing the games in 2 upcoming years, hopefully soon some other will join them. Building around JV means going backwards current winning basketball. We will always be naked at D with JV in contemporary BB when 4 or even 5 guys can do everything and moves in all the court. Book it. If you think we can cover JV's slow feet and lack of IQ and pretend we still have the same odds to win the games against the teams which don't have such liability, than your bet is a bad one JV is barely playable in FIBA and contemporary NBA. In NBA at least he's good offensively, not so much in FIBA.

    And should I really school you that FIBA is much different than NBA? Kuz could easily be 11-12pts per game player in the NBA if he played 24min in NBA. When he was given the chance, he provided exactly that. Kuz never had any problems offensively in the NBA, never. It's his crappy D who kicked him out of NBA. Did you notice how JV was used in winning Raptors team? He was riding the bench any time there's no huge, slow lumberjack in the court. If there's no huge lumberjack in the court, JV was unplaybale in the NBA. His minutes decreased to 18 minutes...

    You absolutely missed the moment when JV became a history in conteporary basketball. As a player, he is a dying and nearly dead breed. No contender team would take him and give him more than 15min in the NBA. The worst part is that JV is even worse p'n'r defender than some other huge dudes as Nurkic or Addams. That makes him extremely difficult to use in contemporary basketball.

    Lithuania will very likely still go with the same losing path because our coaching culture is extremely low, but it doesn't mean JV will lead this team to medals. That's a huge illusion, specially now when the opponents sunk 2 key games winners into his face. That has nothing to do with hate, only with facts.
    do you know that those players you name is all time best fiba players? if you compare them to Valanciunas thats says level of Jonas.I have no problem admitting that Valanciunas is worse than those players,but i repeat that best of best in last 40 years in entire europe.And those your mentione players were not stars,they were europes superstars.

    when you read about Ltu nt article in foreigner site in like 8 of 10 times its Valanciunas photo like last 4 years and that shows that Valanciunas is looked like our leader and biggest star deservingly so in foreigner media .What Jonas showed in last 5 years,not just one tournament of 4 games.

    I can bet that Marciulionis was leading our team over Sabonis for providing scoring btw in 90s.But that doesnt make him better player.Overall in 90s teams had like 6 players other were nkl level,half amateurs if you look closely .Thats why in 90s almost all teams have players with average of 20pts.In today basketball in entire tournament there will 3-4 players to average 20 that playing in winning teams.Lithuania had almost 3 in 95 with 20+ average and others was just for dirty work , but making very slim impact,but that for onother topic.

    SO still trying to say me that Valanciunas is not Lithuanian basketball star? comon men that hate

    I can agree to degree that Valanciunas is old schoold center and he has his minuses in defence and teams attacking him.But world class teams with nba guards, some lkl level guard couldnt take advantage of valanciunas slow speed and on other side Valanciunas would destroy them inside all those lkl level players.

    Valanciunas thinking and understanding improved alot with years.I was the one that critisized him in 2011-2013 years alot.But not anymore ,dont need to picture Jonas as some kind dummy,he is not anymore roght now,he has experience.But he simply cant guard becauw of size such world class guards like Mills/Decolo in pikenrools doesnt matter what iq you have and our coach should help him in such situation.

    Against those Aus/France games i repeat you again Valanciunas was the one that will our team with his energy back in those games.Thats sign im talking he not dummy anymore as he used to be in early years.Jonas understand already when he needs to show up and he did in both 4 querters and i felt true nba players hands impact !

    For example Grigonis faul out in last 5min in most crusial recent 2 games ltu played against Greece in 2017 and in 2019 against France because of stupid fauls and not thinking how important he is...Valanciunas in those 2 2019 4 querters was fighting, shouting, showing enourmous energy and put fear in Gobert eyes it was obviuos ! And if not Mills and Decolo fantastic shots and stupid adomaitis desicion playing 2 centers in last 5 minutes it could have went either way.

    You can remember only those 2 shots ( and ofcourse put blame only on Valanciunas ) when our team was defending in last 5min with 2 centers ( adomaitis). Why arent you able to see what Valanciunas did in first 9minutes of those 4 querter? In first Australia game defensively (yeah defensively) playing with 4 fast players and in second offensively dominating France inside.

    Btw i have no problems Sabonis finishing games instead of jv because of defence.But either way Valanciunas will be force and hardest guardable player we have no doubt in my mind till like 2024.Neither Sabonis or Gudaitis is such offensive force like Valanciunas is and teams were putting game plans how stop him,not Grigonis or Lekavicius we can be sure about that atleast in 2019.

    I dont believe such tales that player that can put 15pts+9 reb averages in 22minutes is ale unplayable in fiba

    He will lead our nt to medal i next 4 years.Domantas also shown character in some moments that i liked.

    Again you play by your best players.If our best players are centers right now ,yes team should be built around them no doubt in my mind.

    The diffrence between lkl and nba is like earth and moon.Maybe some lkl is better built to play in todays basketball,but if he million ages behind level of required who cares? lead nt to medal minimum level required is final four euroleague teams starting 5 player.Anything besides that is not enough to lead any nt to medal in international competions.

    So you can talk all playing styles you want,but if there isnt needed level who cares? Winning teams should play through those guys that have the level firstly,only then think about style !


    right now we have only 2 players Valanciunas and Sabonis that would get million offers from euroleague top teams.Grigonis is upcoming and he has level to becoming final four euroleague teams starting 5 player .Lekavicius will not,he will be energy guy and his game will have alot of up and downs.

    Lukas was brilliant in 2019,but for him to repeat that in next tournament will be hard.He shoot fantastacally well in those 4 games.

    btw STF

    Once again if you trying to picture that Valanciunas is so umplayable in fiba.How do think Jonas would find job in euroleague club right now? or nobody would risk with healthy 27 old school type center from nba who has in his CV 400+ played games with average there 12+8 in 20min in playoofs team just because he is bad in defender pickenrool?

    could please name me better euroleague centers over Valanciunas today ?
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-27-2019 at 02:50 PM.

  13. #413

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    .Overall in 90s teams had like 6 players other were nkl level,half amateurs if you look closely .Thats why in 90s almost all teams have players with average of 20pts.
    Wow. That's absolute nonsense How you even came up with that? Tell me when our NT in 90's had NKL level player in the roster, or any other powerhouse? Go through 1995 rosters, and Serbia, Greece, Spain, Italy have all the players who plays in Spain, Greece, Italy, nothing below that. Croatia also was stacked, only few players playing Poland. This is one of the biggest joke you wrote in a long time, brah. Yeah, Marciulionis was averaging 25ppg only because it was nighties. I guess stacked playoffs Warriors with stars like Mulin, Hardaway also had only 6 players that Sarunas was able to average 19ppg. Man, you're nailed with this one, seriously. And it comes from the guy who is not 15-20 something tit. No, Shaw, there were PRO ball in 90's you know To be precise, f.e. in 1995 EB there were 6 players who average more than 20pts. In 2019 WC there were also 6 players who averaged more than 20 points. Sure, the rotation is broader today, but you wrote nonsence. Real stars will play around thirty minutes in today's FIBA as well. And they do - Bogdanovic, Mills, Fournier, Shroader, Galinari, Scola, Satoranski, Bellinelli, Campazzo all played thirty minutes, nothing changed in this regard. Elite, true stars will play that much. I bet next summer, if we will be in OG, Grigonis will be not far away from this category.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    Against those Aus/France games i repeat you again Valanciunas was the one that will our team with his energy back in those games.Thats sign im talking he not dummy anymore as he used to be in early years.Jonas understand already when he needs to show up and he did in both 4 querters and i felt true nba players hands impact !
    False. Come on Shaw just check the facts. Are you that lazy to chuck the facts? JV scored 1 point in the 4 quarter against Australia. He struggled in that game. Was he impactful with his screens and long hands protecting the rim? Yes. Was he paying like a star? No. Against France he had a good effort and gave Lithuania a boost, but we still got our hands full with JV trying to cover p'n'r at the end of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shawshank View Post
    could please name me better euroleague centers over Valanciunas today ?[/B]
    JV is very much playable against the same kind of centers as himself. That's the key, that's how elite Raptors used him. I never said he's entirely unplayable, but since there's more and more small ball, and most centers are mobile now, there's harder and harder to find a right match-up for him.

    Your question is lazy. You want me to name EL's center who would do better in NBA than JV does in NBA? There's no such center. Or you asking whenever JV would be the best center in EL? It depends. We would have to actually see how he would do. Offensively he would be the best center probably. Defensively he may be unplayable against some teams. Imagine JV playing against Zalgiris. Saras loves to run three p'n'r in one possession. Against JV he would probably aske 4-5 p'n'r if that's needed to punish JV's defence. That would be a night mare for JV.

    But who cares about EL? We talk about NT and we facing different animals here. If we want to beat Elite NTs were are going against teams who not only have NBA bigs, but those are not slow, low IQ centers like JV. It's terrific IQ centers in M.Gasol, Jokic, it's best rim protector, extremely tall and pretty agile Gobert, it's USA bigs, it's tough and good defender Baynes, it's Porzingis, it's Zubac, it's Thompson and other NBA studs.
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  14. #414
    Senior Member Shawshank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Wow. That's absolute nonsense How you even came up with that? Tell me when our NT in 90's had NKL level player in the roster, or any other powerhouse? Go through 1995 rosters, and Serbia, Greece, Spain, Italy have all the players who plays in Spain, Greece, Italy, nothing below that. Croatia also was stacked, only few players playing Poland. This is one of the biggest joke you wrote in a long time, brah. Yeah, Marciulionis was averaging 25ppg only because it was nighties. I guess stacked playoffs Warriors with stars like Mulin, Hardaway also had only 6 players that Sarunas was able to average 19ppg. Man, you're nailed with this one, seriously. And it comes from the guy who is not 15-20 something tit. No, Shaw, there were PRO ball in 90's you know To be precise, f.e. in 1995 EB there were 6 players who average more than 20pts. In 2019 WC there were also 6 players who averaged more than 20 points. Sure, the rotation is broader today, but you wrote nonsence. Real stars will play around thirty minutes in today's FIBA as well. And they do - Bogdanovic, Mills, Fournier, Shroader, Galinari, Scola, Satoranski, Bellinelli, Campazzo all played thirty minutes, nothing changed in this regard. Elite, true stars will play that much. I bet next summer, if we will be in OG, Grigonis will be not far away from this category.




    False. Come on Shaw just check the facts. Are you that lazy to chuck the facts? JV scored 1 point in the 4 quarter against Australia. He struggled in that game. Was he impactful with his screens and long hands protecting the rim? Yes. Was he paying like a star? No. Against France he had a good effort and gave Lithuania a boost, but we still got our hands full with JV trying to cover p'n'r at the end of the game.




    JV is very much playable against the same kind of centers as himself. That's the key, that's how elite Raptors used him. I never said he's entirely unplayable, but since there's more and more small ball, and most centers are mobile now, there's harder and harder to find a right match-up for him.

    Your question is lazy. You want me to name EL's center who would do better in NBA than JV does in NBA? There's no such center. Or you asking whenever JV would be the best center in EL? It depends. We would have to actually see how he would do. Offensively he would be the best center probably. Defensively he may be unplayable against some teams. Imagine JV playing against Zalgiris. Saras loves to run three p'n'r in one possession. Against JV he would probably aske 4-5 p'n'r if that's needed to punish JV's defence. That would be a night mare for JV.

    But who cares about EL? We talk about NT and we facing different animals here. If we want to beat Elite NTs were are going against teams who not only have NBA bigs, but those are not slow, low IQ centers like JV. It's terrific IQ centers in M.Gasol, Jokic, it's best rim protector, extremely tall and pretty agile Gobert, it's USA bigs, it's tough and good defender Baynes, it's Porzingis, it's Zubac, it's Thompson and other NBA studs.
    In 90s most teams played with 7 players all tournament.Check the stats yourself.Lithuania Nt team had played usually 4 players over 32min.When our nT didnt have 3 players in 93 qualification they could even beat belarus or poland teams...Today in qualification we dont have 8 best player and we easily beating and winning all games.Im telling you in 90s teams had 6 european level player and other was below todays lkl level.That 90s level in some italy league was laughable compared to todays.I have collecting games and have watch way more 90s game than you do believe me.

    In 90s diffrence between first 6 players and last 6 players was enourmoues like comparing euroleague level player to lkl level player of juventus/Lietkabelis club.In todays elite nt teams usually 9-12 is still euroleague level player.Back in 90s its wasnt and not even close.

    I dont have nothing against 90s superstars ...superstars would be superstars in every decade.Im talking about other players level who was on bench.Its enourmoues diffrence between 90s bench player level and 10s bench players level.Sabonis had many games were he played all 40minutes in 90s,today nobody plays all minutes in such intensity player would be dead after 3 games.

    and overall topic wasnt not about that,why are changing topic?

    I dont need to see facts,i saw those 2 games more than once and saw what i needed.

    Jonas struglled against Australia,he always does against Baynes i said you before tournament that.There is some kind mental block since rytas days i have a feeling.

    But when Lithuania made a push? when Valanciunas was with 4 mobile players and Jonas played best 6-7 minuted defensive streach i have seen him playing, even E.Zukauskas would be proud looking how JV was playing goalkeepers role with his long hands and from -12 our team got a lead in 4 querter.

    Same was in France games our biggest push was with that unplayable Valanciunas on the floor

    when he literraly put our team on his back and carry by himself for like 5 minutes offensively and bringing fans and their team member back in the game with shown emotions and energy . Valanciunas show up when we needed him mostly as true leader should.I cant tell same about all other our leaders.

    when Jonas eyes becomes big and he feel it good luck stopping him for mr. Gobert or what ever else.

    So if its hard to find better center in entire euroleague,but when Grigonis averaging 11 pts in average euroleague club is big deal and he can be leaderof entire nt? Center that argubly would be best centers in entire euroleague cant be ? and is not even consider lithuania basketball star?


    Only Baynes shown ability to stop Valanciunas from those nba centers others had their hand full of him and dont want no part defending Valanciunas inside.

    For example Zalgiris yes they would attack him in pikenrool ,but who from Zalgiris big would defend Jonas? Geben? or 2m03 Leday? no chance...Valanciunas is not Tavares,you cant guard him with strong PF,JV would overpower such pf badly. We would play Valanciunas easy basket from inside and distance shots half opened by Landale and Leday game.

    Zalgiris and sharas would gave up Landale together with Leday for Jonas in a eyes on blink if they could.Level is level later on they figured out playing style.

    Jonas would have no problems averaging in euroleague 14+8 in 22minutes in any elite team.If he would be able to stay for longer minutes even more.I would even say he would perfect for a team like Real instead of Tavares, 20 minutes playing one way and other 20minutes real is running you out of the building.And smarter coach you would change defences to trying help Jonas.


    There is level diffrence between Valanciunas/Sabonis and Grigonis/Lekavicius/Ulanovas type players and if you cant see i cant help you.

    There is facts why they are getting like 10 + times more and playing againts best usa players,not just best europe players (because already they belong in that group themselfs)
    Last edited by Shawshank; 10-28-2019 at 11:08 AM.

  15. #415

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    Shawshank, you are the master of mixing things over and getting lost in your points

    I asked you to name one NKL player who made it to NT in 90's, but you accused me with changing the topic
    No, your theory that there's 6 players top and other are not even close theory is false. The true is that when you have 4 absolutely elite players you play them for more than thirty minutes, that was back than, that is now. Look at 1995, 1996 rosters:

    Valdemaras
    CHOMICIUS -/- 04/05/1959 Kaunas, Lithuania (BEL)
    5 Arunas
    VISOCKAS -/- 07/12/1965 Kauno R. (HUN)
    6 Saulius
    STOMBERGAS F 202cm
    6'8" 14/12/1973 Klaipeda, Lithuania (RUS)
    7 Mindaugas
    TIMINSKAS F 200cm
    6'7" 28/03/1974 Silute, Lithuania (ESP)
    8 Darius
    LUKMINAS -/- 09/02/1968 Kaunas, Lithuania (AZE)
    9 Gintaras
    KRAPIKAS -/- 06/07/1961 Kretinga, Lithuania
    10 Rimas
    KURTINAITIS -/- 15/05/1960 Kaunus, Lithuania (AZE)
    11 Arvydas-Romas
    SABONIS C 220cm
    7'3" 19/12/1964 Kaunas, Lithuania (LTU)
    12 Arturas
    KARNISOVAS F 204cm
    6'8" 27/04/1971 Klaipeda, Lithuania (ITA)
    13 Raimondas-Sarunas
    MARCIULIONIS -/- 13/06/1964 Kaunas, Lithuania
    14 Gintaras
    EINIKIS C 207cm
    6'9" 30/09/1969 Kretinga, Lithuania (CZE)
    15 Gvidonas
    MARKEVICIUS

    None of these players are some amateurish trash. Even Gvidonas Markevicius was Kaunas Atletas, top LKL team material. And that at Atletas was way better than current Rytas, Neptunas type of clubs, way more talented.

    1996

    Arvydas Sabonis 8 81 26 11 0 14 135 16.9 10.1 3.3 1.4 0.0 1.8
    2 Arturas Karnisovas 7 36 19 7 0 13 107 15.3 5.1 2.7 1.0 0.0 1.9
    3 Rimas Kurtinaitis 8 24 13 6 3 15 97 12.1 3.0 1.6 0.8 0.4 1.9
    4 Gintaras Einikis 8 34 4 5 3 6 81 10.1 4.3 0.5 0.6 0.4 0.8
    5 Sarunas Marciulionis 6 19 38 5 7 12 67 11.2 3.2 6.3 0.8 1.2 2.0
    6 Darius Lukminas 8 9 7 2 4 10 58 7.3 1.1 0.9 0.3 0.5 1.3
    7 Saulius Stombergas 8 14 11 2 1 6 56 7.0 1.8 1.4 0.3 0.1 0.8
    8 Mindaugas Zukauskas 7 10 4 4 0 4 28 4.0 1.4 0.6 0.6 0.0 0.6
    9 Rytis Vaisvila 6 11 19 3 0 12 15 2.5 1.8 3.2 0.5 0.0 2.0
    10 Tomas Pacesas 4 9 11 0 1 9 11 2.8 2.3 2.8 0.0 0.3 2.3
    11 Eurelijus Zukauskas

    Again, Pacesas and Vaisvila, Lukminas were top LKL clubs material, not even close to some NKL level, like it miles away, those were among top LKL players.

    So, please, stop it with this nonsense. Actually our talent charts were way higher than today generally. Vaisvila and Lukminas could shoot the shit of anyone on a good day, we barely had that type of players in 10's.

    So stop with that.

    Look, JV gave a boost to the NT against France, not so much against Australia. Where we disagree? The problem is that you keep repeating Valanciunas emotional impact and stuff, but forget that it was entirely Grigonis and Lekavicius who dragged us on their shoulders offensively against Australia and got us back to the game with their buckets literally. JV was making screens. Don't you think the buckets worth a little bit more?

    Again, you missing my point. JV always was and will be impactful big. My point is that he is not a star as some freakin' Bogdanovic, Fournier or Mills are? Do you get the different? Thoe guys are flat out leaders, they will get the ball and will make buckets. Those are not much better players in NBA if any than JV, but in FIBA those are true stars, and JV is not. Hell, eeven grandpa Scola is much better better fit to FIBA and he played like a star in WC, JV simply can't get to that level. Why I'm not calling JV true NT star? Because why should I lower the bar for our NT? I see how other NT stars look and I don't see the same with JV.

    Now when I said that Sabonis, JV is the same level players as Ulanovas or Lekavicius? You're not listening. We speak about FIBA, NT level. Stick with that. In this area JV is a solid player, sometimes very solid, but not a true standout, not a star. You can disagree with that, but, IMO, it's right spot on.
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  16. #416
    Senior Member madmax's Avatar
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    SF, you are forgetting one major factor when comparing the 90's euro stars with todays' ones - the pace and physicality of the game. Probably neither me nor you are teenagers anymore and we all watched those 90's FIBA games on our lovely black and white TV sets (in the early 90's anyway). The first thing you should have noticed from those games was that players were literally walking on the court most of the time - Sabonis for example was spending the whole 40 minutes limping on the court and providing full court passes to running wing players. That's how he survived those heavy minutes really - he was nursing his aging injured body and couldn't even run anymore...he wouldn't get away with such play in today's basketball and would be truly "unplayable" on court, like you love to reference JV all the time

  17. #417

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmax View Post
    SF, you are forgetting one major factor when comparing the 90's euro stars with todays' ones - the pace and physicality of the game. Probably neither me nor you are teenagers anymore and we all watched those 90's FIBA games on our lovely black and white TV sets (in the early 90's anyway). The first thing you should have noticed from those games was that players were literally walking on the court most of the time - Sabonis for example was spending the whole 40 minutes limping on the court and providing full court passes to running wing players. That's how he survived those heavy minutes really - he was nursing his aging injured body and couldn't even run anymore...he wouldn't get away with such play in today's basketball and would be truly "unplayable" on court, like you love to reference JV all the time
    True. But that doesn't mean teams didn't have deep rosters. The pace of the game simply allowed to ride the stars all game long if needed. Hell, even in 2019 EC most of star players played around thhirty minutes, back than thirty five minutes for star players were a candy, easy. I actually would argue that some Pacesas or Vaisvila in 1996 rosters where better players than Giedraitis, Butkevicius, if we speak about 11-12th players. At the very least all 4 are in the same category, that's being elite LKL clubs material.

    Speaking about Sabonis. In 1995 Lithuanian NT played very crappy, sometimes absolutely funny zone defence and Sabonis never was stepping out. That was the price of the gold. Djordjevic killed us with threes. Sure, Sabonis fouling out also was a huge factor, but I think crappy zone and Sabonis inability to step out basically caused as the loss. I've seen that game a year a go, the zone was ridiculous. The thing is that shooting wasn't as highly emphasized as now in 90's, both FIBA and NBA, but in some games NT still suffered from Sabonis' slow feet. JV would thrive in 90's and even 00's, but specially 90's. He has born in wrong decade.
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  18. #418

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    Sabonis is ready to prove he's one of the most intriguing bigs in NBA right now. He overpowered couple skinny black boys, but I didn't expect he will be bullying Jordan. And he shoots threes again after 2 years of break:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYCUOi1Rwg

    It's fun the Sabonis, specially as a big, proves that PER thirty six stat is still relevant. Now he's playing exactly this much and averages 22,8pts, 10rb, 2.3a. Not sure it's a good news for NT, but it would be interesting experiment to see if Sabonis can keep it up with those minutes all season long.
    Last edited by Straight forward; 10-31-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Straight forward View Post
    Sabonis is ready to prove he's one of the most intriguing bigs in NBA right now. He overpowered couple skinny black boys, but I didn't expect he will be bullying Jordan. And he shoots threes again after 2 years of break:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYCUOi1Rwg

    It's fun the Sabonis, specially as a big, proves that PER thirty six stat is still relevant. Now he's playing exactly this much and averages 22,8pts, 10rb, 2.3a. Not sure it's a good news for NT, but it would be interesting experiment to see if Sabonis can keep it up with those minutes all season long.
    why wouldnt it be agood news for the NT ? xD

  20. #420

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    Quote Originally Posted by zalias View Post
    why wouldnt it be agood news for the NT ? xD
    Higher risk of injuries.
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