Maccabi Electra Tel-Aviv - 2012/2013

[goga78]

Now the story with Yogev is getting complicated but either way Maccabi will have to sign a foreign good PG next to Keith. since Saras we pretty much blew up in this position every year until 2 years ago when we brought Pargo.

Solomon led Maccabi to the Final, being the best player on both ends of the court (remember how he has eaten Prigioni alive in the semifinal). Bynum led Maccabi to the Final, being the best player on both ends of the court. Farmar was toying with opponents last year. Only 2009/10 with Wisniewski and Perkins could be considered as a weaker year but Perkins exploded in the following season. Saras is more of a pure PG compared to all of them but he also got major help by wonderful players around him. That team had no weaknesses.

[frodoborg]

Is it definate,Macvan out of MTA??Rather weird case,ok the fact that he was sent on loan last year was very understandable and a wise decision,but since he proved himself as a very talented player and a go-to player for a good Euroleague team,what's the point of letting him go (and also without any doubt make a rival of yours stronger)??Is he so much on the opposite side of David Blatt's game philosophy?Is he a bad character or what?Are there any clues in Israel for the reason behind Macvan's release??

He's talented, even though he didn't prove himself yet in one of the top clubs. The simple explanation is that he doesn't fit Blatt system/vision/philosophy (call it what you want). That's good enough reason for me. After all, if you accept Blatt as your coach, accept his choices.

[Idans10]

Solomon led Maccabi to the Final, being the best player on both ends of the court (remember how he has eaten Prigioni alive in the semifinal). Bynum led Maccabi to the Final, being the best player on both ends of the court. Farmar was toying with opponents last year. Only 2009/10 with Wisniewski and Perkins could be considered as a weaker year but Perkins exploded in the following season. Saras is more of a pure PG compared to all of them but he also got major help by wonderful players around him. That team had no weaknesses.

I disagree. Solomon had the same amazing team Maccabi had minus Saras and he wasn't as near as good like Saras was in the offensive part. He was way more solist then Saras and less responsible, therefore he scored more points but also didn't had the assists as a first option in the offensive part. And to be honest, when you have Parker, Nico & Baston in the same starting lineup, you just need not to bother too much. When he was our best player in the final vs. CSKA when Parker & Nico weren't good, we lost the title. On the defensive part, he was way better then Saras, no question about that, but as a complete player Saras is 2-3 levels above Salomon and we also saw where went the career of these two. While Salomon pretty much lost his form first in Turkey & then the failure in Jerusalem, Saras was so close this year to take a 6 Euroleague title as a main player in Obradovic team at the age of 36. Simply amazing. Now don't get me wrong, Salomon is a great individual player, but not the kind who fits for Maccbai.

as for Bynum, please please don't put him in the same sentence as Saras. Bynum is not a material for the European basketball. He has very law basketball intelligence and basically uses his massive body to penetrate to the basket, usually nothing good came from it. He was very limited in his shooting, very unstable, big mistake of Maccabi. Yes we got into the final again but don't give Bynum too much credit for that because in the same sentence I can tell you that we lost the title in Israel to Holon (they won us in a final four system but was the better team for the whole season). Bynum now finding his place in the Pistons, a basketball that is way more suit for him. As for Farmar, he was good, although not as good as you described him but anyway he played only 2 months so you really don't expect me to evaluate his contribution based on the group stage of the Euroleague. As for Perkins and Pargo, we had a great season with them although I was very pesimistic at the beginning of the season. But at the end, I don't know if we wouldn't celebrate the title if Perkins wouldn't got injuried.

[iskoch]

I disagree. Solomon had the same amazing team Maccabi had minus Saras and he wasn't as near as good like Saras was in the offensive part. He was way more solist then Saras and less responsible, therefore he scored more points but also didn't had the assists as a first option in the offensive part. And to be honest, when you have Parker, Nico & Baston in the same starting lineup, you just need not to bother too much. When he was our best player in the final vs. CSKA when Parker & Nico weren't good, we lost the title. On the defensive part, he was way better then Saras, no question about that, but as a complete player Saras is 2-3 levels above Salomon and we also saw where went the career of these two. While Salomon pretty much lost his form first in Turkey & then the failure in Jerusalem, Saras was so close this year to take a 6 Euroleague title as a main player in Obradovic team at the age of 36. Simply amazing. Now don't get me wrong, Salomon is a great individual player, but not the kind who fits for Maccbai.

Solomon didn't lose his form in Turkey...
He was our best player during 2 seasons, in one of them was the point leader and MVP of Top 16 and led such a limited team to QF...
Then decided to go to the NBA but couldn't do there...

When he returned, was probably mentally at the end, that's why couldn't find himself anymore.
I think he didn't have motivation for basketball after the failure in NBA as decided to go there to prove himself...
You know he has such a hard character...


Willie "the King" Solomon was the best player in Euroleague in his prime "for me"...
But his craziness was always a big handicap, for him and for his teams too...

[goga78]

I disagree. Solomon had the same amazing team Maccabi had minus Saras and he wasn't as near as good like Saras was in the offensive part. He was way more solist then Saras and less responsible, therefore he scored more points but also didn't had the assists as a first option in the offensive part. And to be honest, when you have Parker, Nico & Baston in the same starting lineup, you just need not to bother too much. When he was our best player in the final vs. CSKA when Parker & Nico weren't good, we lost the title. On the defensive part, he was way better then Saras, no question about that, but as a complete player Saras is 2-3 levels above Salomon and we also saw where went the career of these two. While Salomon pretty much lost his form first in Turkey & then the failure in Jerusalem, Saras was so close this year to take a 6 Euroleague title as a main player in Obradovic team at the age of 36. Simply amazing. Now don't get me wrong, Salomon is a great individual player, but not the kind who fits for Maccbai.

as for Bynum, please please don't put him in the same sentence as Saras. Bynum is not a material for the European basketball. He has very law basketball intelligence and basically uses his massive body to penetrate to the basket, usually nothing good came from it. He was very limited in his shooting, very unstable, big mistake of Maccabi. Yes we got into the final again but don't give Bynum too much credit for that because in the same sentence I can tell you that we lost the title in Israel to Holon (they won us in a final four system but was the better team for the whole season). Bynum now finding his place in the Pistons, a basketball that is way more suit for him. As for Farmar, he was good, although not as good as you described him but anyway he played only 2 months so you really don't expect me to evaluate his contribution based on the group stage of the Euroleague. As for Perkins and Pargo, we had a great season with them although I was very pesimistic at the beginning of the season. But at the end, I don't know if we wouldn't celebrate the title if Perkins wouldn't got injuried.

Solomon is not a typical pass-first PG. He used to hold the ball too long and was looking to finish the attack by himself more often than Jasikevicius. Saras is a top-notch floor general anyway. But Solomon was Maccabi's best player in the Final Four. Parker was very mediocre in the final, while Vujcic has failed completely. Not Solomon's mistake. On the defensive end, there is nothing to compare. Solomon has perhaps been theb est defensive PG in the EL in that season. Baston has been a very dependant offensive player and he profited a lot from Saras. Again, Vujcic has failed completely in the final. Solomon was rescuing his team. Actually, everyone has failed in that game but Solomon. CSKA was playing better but the result has been very close at the end.

Their careers took different directions because top-teams rather need playmakers and not top-scorers on the PG position. McCalebb is an exception here but it isn't like Siena has been playing for the title lately. Plus, there is the discipline issue, which Solomon is infamous for. If it hadn't been for stupid MTA fans and over-demanding media, Solomon would have stayed in Israel but he was tired of that comparisons to Saras everyday that have been very unfair to him.

Bynum was acting stupidly often enough in his first season but made a very big leap in his second season. He became a better shooter, a better playmaker, was able to dictate the tempo of the game, was raising his playing level with every ongoing round. I don't need to compare him to Saras. Again, two different playing types. But he was the main reason, why this team was playing in the title game in 2007/08. I guess that proves, Maccabi has not done wrong by signing him. I remember those old discussions about him but they have been different in his two years in Tel-Aviv. Usually, his penetrations have been very effective and his 55% FG prove it. Why not giving Bynum credit? He was instrumental, the most important player on this squad. Remember that he came off the bench behind the total failure Vonteego Cummings? Yes, Maccabi has lost the title to Holon. So? Does it prove that Bynum was a bad player for Maccabi or that Holon had a very good team together that was able to concentrate more for the game and beat it by one point?

Farmar had less problems in the beginning than Saras had in late 2003.

To sum it up, Maccabi did very well in the PG department after Saras has left. Those were different kind of players but apart from one single season, they've had a different material to work with. Parker has left, Baston has left, Vujcic's playing level deteriorated. Burstein got injured, Sharp became older. The failures have usually been at the wing positions (2 and 3). There was no one to replace Parker and Burstein in top shape. Only Pargo did so but Parker dominated more.

I know the nostalgy onf MTA fans for Saras because of the titles and his fancy passes. I feel the same. But it wasn't only Saras. It was a golden TEAM back then.

[Idans10]

Willy was one of the best player in Israel in 2004 leading Jerusalem to a fantastic UELB cup. after Maccabi when he was in good shape he moved to Turkey and player well. You cannot lose your form right away. He was one of the best in the Euroleague, i do agree but his form dropped when he moved to the NBA and afterwards it wasn't the same Solomon. Today at the age of 34 he plays in an unknown Ukraine team and Saras...well Saras is Saras. And with all the respect, the pressure in Maccabi is way high then in Fener and much difficult to succee there.

[Idans10]

goga78, I never said that nor Bynum or Solomon were bad players. Both of them were good players, both of them had good games in Maccabi as well. I know that they have a different style of game then Saras and I don't need to make this compare between Saras and them because it's useless, but if you take the WHOLE equation and aspects of the game, Saras is way better then these two combined. I do think that a team like Maccabi needs a player like Saras type and not like these two (I don't know your age but if you're around 25 you probably remember David Ankram who took the PG when Goodes got injuried and he was a disaster with his solo game). Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.

[Jazz]

To sum it up, Maccabi did very well in the PG department after Saras has left. Those were different kind of players but apart from one single season, they've had a different material to work with. Parker has left, Baston has left, Vujcic's playing level deteriorated. Burstein got injured, Sharp became older. The failures have usually been at the wing positions (2 and 3). There was no one to replace Parker and Burstein in top shape. Only Pargo did so but Parker dominated more.

But how about the season with Arroyo? That surely didn't work.

[goga78]

Willy was one of the best player in Israel in 2004 leading Jerusalem to a fantastic UELB cup. after Maccabi when he was in good shape he moved to Turkey and player well. You cannot lose your form right away. He was one of the best in the Euroleague, i do agree but his form dropped when he moved to the NBA and afterwards it wasn't the same Solomon. Today at the age of 34 he plays in an unknown Ukraine team and Saras...well Saras is Saras. And with all the respect, the pressure in Maccabi is way high then in Fener and much difficult to succee there.

A different type of player. He depends on his drives to the basket. Saras depends on his outside shot. The player who has to move less has a longer career. Then, there is psychology. Solomon is playing on a foreign continent just for money. If he loses passion, he's through with basketball. He gets enough money in Ukraine, he has less pressure and more freedoms. He went for it. 1,5 years ago, he was playing for a good club. Last season, he was brilliant (individually) in the Eurocup. His last stint with Fenerbahce, he was a player with superb impact. There is no doubt, he can still effortlessly produce at EL level.

Maccabi always put a high pressure on its players. But the pressure on Solomon was much higher than usual because he succeeded Saras. Regardless, how well he did, people wanted to see Saras. It was unfair and he did the only right thing. He has proven his quality of play and left then. He ows nothing to Maccabi, its fans and the Israeli press. The only person who has known his worth is Pini Gershon.. Spoiled fans simply didn't accept him.

goga78, I never said that nor Bynum or Solomon were bad players. Both of them were good players, both of them had good games in Maccabi as well. I know that they have a different style of game then Saras and I don't need to make this compare between Saras and them because it's useless, but if you take the WHOLE equation and aspects of the game, Saras is way better then these two combined. I do think that a team like Maccabi needs a player like Saras type and not like these two (I don't know your age but if you're around 25 you probably remember David Ankram who took the PG when Goodes got injuried and he was a disaster with his solo game). Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.

Not good games. Successful seasons.
I also like pass first PGs more. But it all depends on the situation. If your teammates are great, give me a pure playmaker. If your team is not that well, give me a scorer. McCalebb is not a pass-first PG. He is a scorer and since he is a dangerous scorer, he can record some assists as well. Same was true for Pargo. Classic PGs are very hard to come by. You won't be able to name ten such PGs for EL level, even taking NBA PGs into account. Regardless of that, you can be successful with different types of PGs. Maccabi has had success with Saras, Solomon, Bynum and Pargo. Maccabi has had an All-Star team during Saras tenure and had only CSKA to cope with. Everyone else was levels below, yet Maccabi still has had enough problems, especially in the first year. Then, Messina took over CSKA. One narrow loss doesn't make Solomon worse than Saras in his impact on team success. Bynum had teammates, levels below Parker & Co. in their prime. Yet they made it to the final. Pargo was a rookie and had zero help from the bench, yet his team made it to the final. Maccabi has fared well with all of those players. It's just that opponents became better during Bynum's stint and got even higher budget during Pargo's year. For me, the 2010/11 trip to the final was not worth less than the 2004 and 2005 titles because it was much harder.

[goga78]

But how about the season with Arroyo? That surely didn't work.

Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.

[Idans10]

by the way goga78, what do you say regarding Ohayon? In case that he'll stay, do you prefer him as our first choice PG or a foreign one in the market? and if so, which options do you think will suit us?

[Idans10]

Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.

I do agree on this one, although I think that it was a bit over Maccabi's head to pay such crazy amounts.

[Jazz]

Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.

I suppose also Arroyo was part of a trend that summer of European teams strongly going after NBA role players- Childress, Delfino, Boykins, Krstic, Nachbar, Jannero Pargo etc. Do you think Maccabi's signing of Arroyo was influenced by that? Like you say, it was an uncharacteristic signing.

[goga78]

I don't think Maccabi was following a trend. After all, it could have signed several players for that amount of money. But Maccabi's team consisted of nobodies and the management felt the need to sign a marquee name.

Should Ohayon stay, Maccabi will need another PG anyway. Whether starter or not, it depends on the other players who are going to be signed. The other PG has to be a more consistent shooter. I think, they could split playing time or the new PG would get ca. 25 mpg and Ohayon ca. 15 mpg. In fact, even if Ohayon plays less, I think he has to start the game. He would be playing with bettr teammates in the starting five with no needs to put an emphasis on scoring. The other PG would come off the benach, having other guys around him and he would have to make sure, Maccabi gets points on the board. I don't care who starts. It's about chemistry.

Names? I haven't really followed the FA market. Since Langford costs a lot of money, MTA will not get someone expensive from the NBA. It better not get anyone from the domestic competition. Scoring PGs like Tyrese Rice (L. Rytas) or DaShaun Wood (ALBA Berlin but probabl free now) are getting more money than Ohayon does now. In Maccabi, they would get even more again. Same goes for Brian Roberts (Bamberg). They are not classic PGs. Roberts is an SG but he has payed PG this year and has done it very well. All of them are quick, have good ball handling skills and can score aplenty. Wood is a very fast player. As fast as McCalebb. Yet he isn't as big or strong as the other two. In fact, I think Roberts could be a good fit for Maccabi, sharing his duties with Ohayon. If he has a chance to play SG, he can burn the house down. He could be with Halperin (should he come back) at the same time on the field. Would be a great combo of two great shooters and solid ball handlers on the floor. Makkabi is paying attention to Perkins. But he wants like twice the salary as Roberts does. He is a totally different kind of player. Would be a good one but I cannot imagine him with Langford at the same time on the floor. They would eat up the whole time with the ball in their respective hands. We could look for someone from Spain. Can't tell any names. No one from Russia or Turkey because they are spoiled by unjustified salaries. Italy? Wood has played in Italy with major success during his short stint there. I just don't think, Maccabi needs another Bynum or Solomon as it already has a solist with Langford. Roberts would do well. A taller Mallet, quicker and with PG skills. But other than Mallet, he is used to playing withing the concept of a team, which doesn't just play catch and shoot. Maccabi has often signed US guys from Germany. Perkins, Wiz, Eidson, Fischer, just to name a few recent names. Could be worth a gamble again.

Wood:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/dashaun-wood-1.html?redir

http://195.56.77.208/player/?id=WOO-DAS-85

http://statistik.beko-bbl.de/bbl/stats/player/index.php?team=426&pos=&spieler_id=18105

Roberts:

http://statistik.basketball-bundesliga.de/bbl/stats/player/index.php?team=420&pos=&spieler_id=14512

[Olympiacos]

I disagree. Solomon had the same amazing team Maccabi had minus Saras and he wasn't as near as good like Saras was in the offensive part. He was way more solist then Saras and less responsible, therefore he scored more points but also didn't had the assists as a first option in the offensive part. And to be honest, when you have Parker, Nico & Baston in the same starting lineup, you just need not to bother too much. When he was our best player in the final vs. CSKA when Parker & Nico weren't good, we lost the title. On the defensive part, he was way better then Saras, no question about that, but as a complete player Saras is 2-3 levels above Salomon and we also saw where went the career of these two. While Salomon pretty much lost his form first in Turkey & then the failure in Jerusalem, Saras was so close this year to take a 6 Euroleague title as a main player in Obradovic team at the age of 36. Simply amazing. Now don't get me wrong, Salomon is a great individual player, but not the kind who fits for Maccbai.

as for Bynum, please please don't put him in the same sentence as Saras. Bynum is not a material for the European basketball. He has very law basketball intelligence and basically uses his massive body to penetrate to the basket, usually nothing good came from it. He was very limited in his shooting, very unstable, big mistake of Maccabi. Yes we got into the final again but don't give Bynum too much credit for that because in the same sentence I can tell you that we lost the title in Israel to Holon (they won us in a final four system but was the better team for the whole season). Bynum now finding his place in the Pistons, a basketball that is way more suit for him. As for Farmar, he was good, although not as good as you described him but anyway he played only 2 months so you really don't expect me to evaluate his contribution based on the group stage of the Euroleague. As for Perkins and Pargo, we had a great season with them although I was very pesimistic at the beginning of the season. But at the end, I don't know if we wouldn't celebrate the title if Perkins wouldn't got injuried.

Of course Saras was a way better player than any of those guys. I don't think that anyone was arguing otherwise.

Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.

How is McCalebb a classic play maker? He's a midget SG. He does practically nothing but dribble and look to score. He's a great one to one scorer, but he's no classic play maker. Not even close. He plays mostly for himself, and is always looking to shoot or drive. He would do even less play making on Siena, than Kaukenas or Rakocevic.