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Thread: Maccabi Electra Tel-Aviv - 2012/2013

  1. #21
    Senior Member Idans10's Avatar
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    Willy was one of the best player in Israel in 2004 leading Jerusalem to a fantastic UELB cup. after Maccabi when he was in good shape he moved to Turkey and player well. You cannot lose your form right away. He was one of the best in the Euroleague, i do agree but his form dropped when he moved to the NBA and afterwards it wasn't the same Solomon. Today at the age of 34 he plays in an unknown Ukraine team and Saras...well Saras is Saras. And with all the respect, the pressure in Maccabi is way high then in Fener and much difficult to succee there.
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    goga78, I never said that nor Bynum or Solomon were bad players. Both of them were good players, both of them had good games in Maccabi as well. I know that they have a different style of game then Saras and I don't need to make this compare between Saras and them because it's useless, but if you take the WHOLE equation and aspects of the game, Saras is way better then these two combined. I do think that a team like Maccabi needs a player like Saras type and not like these two (I don't know your age but if you're around 25 you probably remember David Ankram who took the PG when Goodes got injuried and he was a disaster with his solo game). Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by goga78 View Post
    To sum it up, Maccabi did very well in the PG department after Saras has left. Those were different kind of players but apart from one single season, they've had a different material to work with. Parker has left, Baston has left, Vujcic's playing level deteriorated. Burstein got injured, Sharp became older. The failures have usually been at the wing positions (2 and 3). There was no one to replace Parker and Burstein in top shape. Only Pargo did so but Parker dominated more.
    But how about the season with Arroyo? That surely didn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idans10 View Post
    Willy was one of the best player in Israel in 2004 leading Jerusalem to a fantastic UELB cup. after Maccabi when he was in good shape he moved to Turkey and player well. You cannot lose your form right away. He was one of the best in the Euroleague, i do agree but his form dropped when he moved to the NBA and afterwards it wasn't the same Solomon. Today at the age of 34 he plays in an unknown Ukraine team and Saras...well Saras is Saras. And with all the respect, the pressure in Maccabi is way high then in Fener and much difficult to succee there.
    A different type of player. He depends on his drives to the basket. Saras depends on his outside shot. The player who has to move less has a longer career. Then, there is psychology. Solomon is playing on a foreign continent just for money. If he loses passion, he's through with basketball. He gets enough money in Ukraine, he has less pressure and more freedoms. He went for it. 1,5 years ago, he was playing for a good club. Last season, he was brilliant (individually) in the Eurocup. His last stint with Fenerbahce, he was a player with superb impact. There is no doubt, he can still effortlessly produce at EL level.

    Maccabi always put a high pressure on its players. But the pressure on Solomon was much higher than usual because he succeeded Saras. Regardless, how well he did, people wanted to see Saras. It was unfair and he did the only right thing. He has proven his quality of play and left then. He ows nothing to Maccabi, its fans and the Israeli press. The only person who has known his worth is Pini Gershon.. Spoiled fans simply didn't accept him.

    goga78, I never said that nor Bynum or Solomon were bad players. Both of them were good players, both of them had good games in Maccabi as well. I know that they have a different style of game then Saras and I don't need to make this compare between Saras and them because it's useless, but if you take the WHOLE equation and aspects of the game, Saras is way better then these two combined. I do think that a team like Maccabi needs a player like Saras type and not like these two (I don't know your age but if you're around 25 you probably remember David Ankram who took the PG when Goodes got injuried and he was a disaster with his solo game). Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.
    Not good games. Successful seasons.
    I also like pass first PGs more. But it all depends on the situation. If your teammates are great, give me a pure playmaker. If your team is not that well, give me a scorer. McCalebb is not a pass-first PG. He is a scorer and since he is a dangerous scorer, he can record some assists as well. Same was true for Pargo. Classic PGs are very hard to come by. You won't be able to name ten such PGs for EL level, even taking NBA PGs into account. Regardless of that, you can be successful with different types of PGs. Maccabi has had success with Saras, Solomon, Bynum and Pargo. Maccabi has had an All-Star team during Saras tenure and had only CSKA to cope with. Everyone else was levels below, yet Maccabi still has had enough problems, especially in the first year. Then, Messina took over CSKA. One narrow loss doesn't make Solomon worse than Saras in his impact on team success. Bynum had teammates, levels below Parker & Co. in their prime. Yet they made it to the final. Pargo was a rookie and had zero help from the bench, yet his team made it to the final. Maccabi has fared well with all of those players. It's just that opponents became better during Bynum's stint and got even higher budget during Pargo's year. For me, the 2010/11 trip to the final was not worth less than the 2004 and 2005 titles because it was much harder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    But how about the season with Arroyo? That surely didn't work.
    Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.
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    Senior Member Idans10's Avatar
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    by the way goga78, what do you say regarding Ohayon? In case that he'll stay, do you prefer him as our first choice PG or a foreign one in the market? and if so, which options do you think will suit us?
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    Quote Originally Posted by goga78 View Post
    Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.
    I do agree on this one, although I think that it was a bit over Maccabi's head to pay such crazy amounts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goga78 View Post
    Arroyo was very good. His fast-paced game produced lots of highlights in every game. However, his team was one of the worst in Maccabi's history. Put Arroyo on any other Maccabi team and it would have been a title contender. His shooting percentage wasn't good but if the defense can concentrate on you only, you won't have good FG. Plus, Arroyo is known as a player who never met a shot he didn't like. Carlos had Eliyahu and Fischer, who were good but good through Arroyo. Casspi was too young, Marcus Brown was too old, the rest had no EL level. Actually, Maccabi got Arroyo as the only attraction of the season in order to get people into the arena. That's why he got paid a totally unlike amount of money for MTA: 2.5 mio USD.
    I suppose also Arroyo was part of a trend that summer of European teams strongly going after NBA role players- Childress, Delfino, Boykins, Krstic, Nachbar, Jannero Pargo etc. Do you think Maccabi's signing of Arroyo was influenced by that? Like you say, it was an uncharacteristic signing.

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    I don't think Maccabi was following a trend. After all, it could have signed several players for that amount of money. But Maccabi's team consisted of nobodies and the management felt the need to sign a marquee name.

    Should Ohayon stay, Maccabi will need another PG anyway. Whether starter or not, it depends on the other players who are going to be signed. The other PG has to be a more consistent shooter. I think, they could split playing time or the new PG would get ca. 25 mpg and Ohayon ca. 15 mpg. In fact, even if Ohayon plays less, I think he has to start the game. He would be playing with bettr teammates in the starting five with no needs to put an emphasis on scoring. The other PG would come off the benach, having other guys around him and he would have to make sure, Maccabi gets points on the board. I don't care who starts. It's about chemistry.

    Names? I haven't really followed the FA market. Since Langford costs a lot of money, MTA will not get someone expensive from the NBA. It better not get anyone from the domestic competition. Scoring PGs like Tyrese Rice (L. Rytas) or DaShaun Wood (ALBA Berlin but probabl free now) are getting more money than Ohayon does now. In Maccabi, they would get even more again. Same goes for Brian Roberts (Bamberg). They are not classic PGs. Roberts is an SG but he has payed PG this year and has done it very well. All of them are quick, have good ball handling skills and can score aplenty. Wood is a very fast player. As fast as McCalebb. Yet he isn't as big or strong as the other two. In fact, I think Roberts could be a good fit for Maccabi, sharing his duties with Ohayon. If he has a chance to play SG, he can burn the house down. He could be with Halperin (should he come back) at the same time on the field. Would be a great combo of two great shooters and solid ball handlers on the floor. Makkabi is paying attention to Perkins. But he wants like twice the salary as Roberts does. He is a totally different kind of player. Would be a good one but I cannot imagine him with Langford at the same time on the floor. They would eat up the whole time with the ball in their respective hands. We could look for someone from Spain. Can't tell any names. No one from Russia or Turkey because they are spoiled by unjustified salaries. Italy? Wood has played in Italy with major success during his short stint there. I just don't think, Maccabi needs another Bynum or Solomon as it already has a solist with Langford. Roberts would do well. A taller Mallet, quicker and with PG skills. But other than Mallet, he is used to playing withing the concept of a team, which doesn't just play catch and shoot. Maccabi has often signed US guys from Germany. Perkins, Wiz, Eidson, Fischer, just to name a few recent names. Could be worth a gamble again.

    Wood:
    http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...d-1.html?redir
    http://195.56.77.208/player/?id=WOO-DAS-85
    http://statistik.beko-bbl.de/bbl/sta...ieler_id=18105

    Roberts:
    http://statistik.basketball-bundesli...ieler_id=14512
    Last edited by rikhardur; 06-15-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idans10 View Post
    I disagree. Solomon had the same amazing team Maccabi had minus Saras and he wasn't as near as good like Saras was in the offensive part. He was way more solist then Saras and less responsible, therefore he scored more points but also didn't had the assists as a first option in the offensive part. And to be honest, when you have Parker, Nico & Baston in the same starting lineup, you just need not to bother too much. When he was our best player in the final vs. CSKA when Parker & Nico weren't good, we lost the title. On the defensive part, he was way better then Saras, no question about that, but as a complete player Saras is 2-3 levels above Salomon and we also saw where went the career of these two. While Salomon pretty much lost his form first in Turkey & then the failure in Jerusalem, Saras was so close this year to take a 6 Euroleague title as a main player in Obradovic team at the age of 36. Simply amazing. Now don't get me wrong, Salomon is a great individual player, but not the kind who fits for Maccbai.

    as for Bynum, please please don't put him in the same sentence as Saras. Bynum is not a material for the European basketball. He has very law basketball intelligence and basically uses his massive body to penetrate to the basket, usually nothing good came from it. He was very limited in his shooting, very unstable, big mistake of Maccabi. Yes we got into the final again but don't give Bynum too much credit for that because in the same sentence I can tell you that we lost the title in Israel to Holon (they won us in a final four system but was the better team for the whole season). Bynum now finding his place in the Pistons, a basketball that is way more suit for him. As for Farmar, he was good, although not as good as you described him but anyway he played only 2 months so you really don't expect me to evaluate his contribution based on the group stage of the Euroleague. As for Perkins and Pargo, we had a great season with them although I was very pesimistic at the beginning of the season. But at the end, I don't know if we wouldn't celebrate the title if Perkins wouldn't got injuried.
    Of course Saras was a way better player than any of those guys. I don't think that anyone was arguing otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idans10 View Post
    Again, it's my opinion but I think that a classic playmaker (wheathere it's european like Saras or American like McCalebb & Therrel Brandon) would be better for us then a PG who act more like a SG.
    How is McCalebb a classic play maker? He's a midget SG. He does practically nothing but dribble and look to score. He's a great one to one scorer, but he's no classic play maker. Not even close. He plays mostly for himself, and is always looking to shoot or drive. He would do even less play making on Siena, than Kaukenas or Rakocevic.

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    Senior Member Idans10's Avatar
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    McCalebb is no classy playmaker but he is way better at PG and his intelligence is way better then both Willy and Bynum in my opinion and he already proved it in Partizan & Siena.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idans10 View Post
    McCalebb is no classy playmaker but he is way better at PG and his intelligence is way better then both Willy and Bynum in my opinion and he already proved it in Partizan & Siena.
    Yes, but that was not what I understood you to be saying. I thought you meant that McCalebb was a natural play maker, which he is not. I think McCalebb is great for certain teams, but in others he won't do well. Just because he is simply always playing to score. If that is what the team's system wants, then he is great because he is so quick and so efficient as a scorer. But if the team wants to have a more balanced offense and distribution, then McCalebb is not the right point guard to have. Because he is not going to create offense for others.

    He is like the polar opposite of guards like Ohayon and Prigioni. Yes, he's better than Bynum and Solomon, obviously. But he's still basically a small SG, with a great handle. He fits so well to Siena because they already used a system with McIntyre, that was designed for a scoring first and look to get his own points lead guard.

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    about last mta's discussions
    -even if i dont follow il league,is IMPOSSIBLE thinking there are no better israeli than ohayon or halperin
    -releasing macvan is a crazy view of blatt. with macvan in ,mta was in f4 even this year when we played an orrible basket
    -hairston is not a pg, but before writing he cant play as pg, u should see at this year in italy. a real crack in that position
    -blu out is a big problem,even more for a blatt's team.
    blatt misconsider the arch and blu's skill often break matches ,often changes matches beacause his natural skills revolutioned blatt basketball offensive view (that just consider the paint)
    -rumors that much scare me are names like saras or nicholas. adding old names are classical step of a club without money,scouting and plans .
    first mta step (shermadini) is great ,as great is sofo out. halperin would be great,but i'm afraid about pf and pg position
    Last edited by maccabeo; 06-16-2012 at 09:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goga78 View Post
    If your teammates are great, give me a pure playmaker. If your team is not that well, give me a scorer.
    ...but talking of ohayon u dont consider this basic rule

    sorry if i reply to u instead of goga.
    imho ,ohayon shouldnt be even the 2nd pg
    a very mediocre player who can't help his teammate except we were talking of a great team
    Last edited by rikhardur; 06-16-2012 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    -even if i dont follow il league,is IMPOSSIBLE thinking there are no better israeli than ohayon or halperin
    Impossible is nothing. You have seen the Israeli NT, right? If the Israelis are telling you, they belong to the best, you either believe them or make your own recherche.
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    Andrea Trinchieri: 'Giorgi Shermadini is not ready for Maccabi now'
    The coach of Cant¨ talked about the Georgian who moved to Maccabi Tel Aviv

    Andrea Trinchieri released an interview to Walla talking about Giorgi Shermadini who is, in the coach's opinion, ready to play in Maccabi Tel Aviv now.

    "I told Shermadini that he is not ready for a team like Maccabi now. That it’s a different team with a lot of pressure and 11,000 fans in every game. I told Shermadini that he is not going to replace Benjamin Ortner, that he is going to replace Sofo in Maccabi! He is very talented, but he is not ready for Maccabi now. Shermadini was injured ,it's true,but I had a feeling that he didn’t do his best to return from his injury because he was afraid that it will be worst and than he won’t sign in Maccabi.....because he already agreed with them in March. Since then it wasn’t the same Shermadini. He wasn’t hungry as in the start of the season. Giorgi wasn’t fair with the club (CantÓ) but maybe it's not just him, it's also his Israeli agent – Guy Zucker. I can’t say that Shermadini is a bad boy, but but he made a mistake....But maybe when a big club like Maccabi calls you, so you do things like that. It's also a dream for me to coach in Maccabi, but for now they have a coach, one of the best in Europe, but when he will quit, and if I will be a candidate I will be proud and happy. When I coached at Nokia this year with Cant¨, I felt the pressure on Maccabi, but in the other hand I felt the commitment of Maccabi players. For now Shermadini didn’t show commitment ,and in Maccabi you have to be commited, it’s a team of a country, everyone is looking at you. If he won’t realize it he will fail.Another problem is that he doesn’t speak English well, we were lucky becaise we had Markoshvili who helped us with him, but I don’t know how it will work in Maccabi.
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    Senior Member Idans10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maccabeo View Post
    about last mta's discussions
    -even if i dont follow il league,is IMPOSSIBLE thinking there are no better israeli than ohayon or halperin
    Give me names.

    right now Ohayon is part of the team with Euroleague experience which he did well (not amazing but pretty good for a 1st year in Maccabi). I don't like his "games" with Maccabi regarding the salary because he still needs to prove himself a bit more but as an Israeli, we do not have better option in this position. Halperin? more talented then Yogi but no balls. Yogev in his first season in yellow had more balls and courage then Yotam had in his 3rd year. Moran Rott? belongs to smaller teams, way too messy to play in Maccabi or the Euroleague and the same goes to Yuval Naimi who signed in Russia. We stayed with Gal Mekel, in my opinion another talened player and most probably more then Yogev but we already saw that he didn't want to fight for his place in Maccabi 3 years ago and last season he was very average in Italy. I wouldn't say that Yogev cannot be replaced but in my opinion he is the best Israeli PG at this moment.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz View Post
    Andrea Trinchieri: 'Giorgi Shermadini is not ready for Maccabi now'
    The coach of Cant¨ talked about the Georgian who moved to Maccabi Tel Aviv
    Trinchieri sounds pissed off and rightfully so, but this is how the things work.
    Maccabi suffered from nearly the same cause with Hendrix. After impressive Top16 he started talks/got some agreement for his next team, his numbers dropped: 13 to 8 PPG , 8 to 5 RPG

    As for Shermadini . I dunno if he's ready or not, but he's the best C option currently on the market. He's not starting to play EL for the first time next season, he was there for Pao & Cantu.

    As for linguistic troubles , I guess he speaks Russian as well , pretty sure there will be somebody in Maccabi who understands/speaks it. IIRC Halperin's dad come from USSR, so Yotam could help here.

  19. #39
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    Same thing for Maccbai also Happened with D'ior Fischer & Terence Morris. Both of them got a better offer from elite clubs as well after good seasons in Yellow and since they got unrealistic salary that Maccabi could afford, we released them. Same thing with Shermadini and nothing wrong with it.
    As for the language problem, I think that the coach here a bit over reacting. And how did he communicate with Shermadini? I don't think that Blatt would go on a player that he would thought that he won't be able to communicate with him. I believe everything will be good with the Georgian, he surely looks as our best option like Billy said (even though I like Sofo a lot).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bounce View Post
    Trinchieri sounds pissed off and rightfully so, but this is how the things work.
    Maccabi suffered from nearly the same cause with Hendrix. After impressive Top16 he started talks/got some agreement for his next team, his numbers dropped: 13 to 8 PPG , 8 to 5 RPG

    As for Shermadini . I dunno if he's ready or not, but he's the best C option currently on the market. He's not starting to play EL for the first time next season, he was there for Pao & Cantu.

    As for linguistic troubles , I guess he speaks Russian as well , pretty sure there will be somebody in Maccabi who understands/speaks it. IIRC Halperin's dad come from USSR, so Yotam could help here.
    There are enough Jews from Georgia in Israel who will welcome the new Georgian star in the country's biggest sports team. If an interpreter is needed, there is no problem to find one. However, I guess that after years in Greece and Italy, Giorgi is capable of understanding English well enough.
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