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Thread: fall of "yugoslavian" basketball

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    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Default fall of "yugoslavian" basketball

    At the moment of starting this thread Greece has a 23 point lead and unless I "kill them" with this sentence there is no way they will lose the OG qualifications ticket..
    further on that means that except Macedonia there won't be any "yugoslavian" team on the olympics or qualifying tournament atleast and that makes this tournament a complete and utter failure and humiliation of yugoslavian basketball and it's basketball school which is usually placed really high..

    and under yugoslavian I mean any team from ex-yugoslavia..
    btw. this was the first time every ex-yugoslavian country was present at EC..
    and hats of to both EC and WC but for me personally OG are the biggest basketball tournament on the planet.. by far..

    And let us see how they did in alphabetical order:

    1. Bosnia and Herzegovina - failed to qualify for the second round, got their assess blown by Finland but they finally won the game at the EC where they haven't been for a long time. not only that, they won two games in total and the second one was an easy one against Croatia which was surely a sweet one 'cause croatian's like to see bosnian team as an inferior team to theirs..
    IMO in total this was a good tournament for them. finally they assembled their full or almost full team and if their federation actually could have afford some things during prep period I bet their result would be even better.
    anyway a solid ground to work on..
    biggest issue: Teletović factor - when he is hot entire team plays good, when he takes a day off Bosnia losses, C position - with Varda exiting (and the real reason why he was out of the team was never publicly announced) they are severly weaken at C, no money for proper preps..
    future: this team can stay together for atleast 5-7 years and that means the best is still infront of them to come. what comes after is a huge question since bosnian youth categories basicly don't exist on european basketball map.
    OG history - never been on the OG tournament


    2. Croatia - kicked out from the tournament before the real tournament even started - is there really anything needed to say about our performance? o.k., it is not a medal contender team (eventhough I as a hardcore fan always believe in their potential and year after year I get more and more dissapointed) but being kicked out after group stage. unacceptable.
    yes, Tomas and Ukić were a loss but come on. every team has that. the biggest dissapointment of all yugoslavian teams... for sure and not only just for me.. what is even worse for basketball in Croatia they have lost all support even from those hardcore fans like I am..
    biggest issue: no team play, no set offence, unexisting defense. and the thing I hate the most simply no passion in the game, no heart..
    future: for the last 16 years our future was "bright" and for the last 16 year we managed to do nothing or almost nothing. we are claiming we have a bright future.. with no proper coaching both in NT and the clubs, with Radić at helm of our basketball there is simply no future..
    OG history: after two OG tournaments in the 90's Repeša took us to Beijing in 2008. but we are now out of the picture.. again.. oh well, I can atleast use the repeat button on the 1992. OG final tape over and over again..


    3. Macedonia - they lost 7 prep games and look at where they are now. impressive to say atleast, they don't possess the quality or the depth like Slovenia or Serbia but with a huge heart and brilliant tactics they have overcome that. surely one of the best stories of european basketball in the last 20 years.. hats off.. their defensive game plan could become a special section in every training book.. everyone will say they played against never as week Greece or against Lithuania on a bad Lith day but I don't think they really care about it.. you have to recognize a great story when there is one.. and they are the biggest story of this EC..
    biggest issue: short bench and Gečevski is injured otherwise there are none
    future: at 17:30 today they will be making history by playing at EC semifinal and really, I mean really who the fuck cares about what comes after that. but IMO if they don't win the semifinal game this evening they will hardly see London O2 Arena. but this result will surely raise some interest for basketball and that will play a big role in their future. other than that, once Ilievski, Antić and Mekajlebovski are gonne who will remain?
    OG history - so close to their first appearance. I hope it won't remain on just that..


    4. Montenegro
    - they destroyed every opponent on their way from B division to EC and then the EC started and noone has seen them actually appearing on it.. have you seen them anywhere? they were supposed to be a tough nut to crack for everyone and at the end they were as cute as koala is..

    biggest issue: Peković can easily play a role at sumo fights, I mean wtf Nikola? you have chevaps, you don't have to eat mccrap every fucking day, guards, coach.. no expirience at this level of national team basketball
    future:this will surely be a good learning expirience for them and this core of players can play together this entire decade or most of it anyway. what comes after?
    OG history - they played in Athens but they had a longer name of the country back then, other then that they are quite small to make it. but who knows, maybe one day..


    5. Serbia
    - if Novica Veličković means so much for serbian NT basketball team then serbs should really worry about it. Surely he has a big role in the team and yes injuries disrupted this team but like stated up there, under Croatia, every team goes through that and that can only be used as a good excuse. fact of the matter is that except against Germany for most of the game (not last 5 minutes though) and against France this serbian team played like shit all tournament long and they really didn't deserve to go any further then this. Ivković surely lost some credibility with this result and I personally believe his position as a coach of the NT should be under a big questionmark. Teodosić is a great player but in this team he is a sheriff and that didn't end up good did it? He is not a leader, period.

    biggest issue: no real substition for Krstić or atleast not amongst the players called here.. Teodosić being a TO king of this championship. lack of bench or atleast lack of using the bench properly
    future: talents are still there and more are coming and there shouldn't be any worries about the future. they just need a young coach with new ideas.
    OG history - second tournament in a row they missing out and that should worry them because they are always in a downfall when the olympics are at the doors

    6. Slovenia - I said so many times before the tournament started that Maljković is a dinosaur and he proved me right. surely some things he couldn't influence (injury of Nachbar) or cancellation of B. Udrih but still the fact of the matter is that if there wouldn't be a croatian team slovenian team would be called as playing the biggest shit of the basketball of any yugoslavian country. simply a horrible performance and nothing much to add here.
    biggest issue: Maljković and injuries/cancellation
    future: EC in Slovenia is in two years and they will probably have a new coach who will have only a little time and couple of prep games to prepare the team for the tournament. even if everyone show up for it it is still a question of what they can actually do on the tournament considering they lost a year of their lives because of Maljković
    OG history - OG? what is that, something to eat?

    how do you see it? with what do you connect this fall? adriatic league?
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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    Senior Member pohani komarac's Avatar
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    adriatic league? no

    ex yu had 12 teams and from that 12 teams ther were 2 powerhouses

    depth is still there, but no stars who can make difrence. that is prety much it. in all nations closest to stars are krstic, lorbek and teodosic

    comparing that to cosic, dalipagic, delibasic, kukoc, petrovic, divac, stojakovic, radja, bodiroga....not even funny

    macedonia is lucky. few decent players so their coach can't kill them with nonsense rotations and 1 star player who makes difrence

    why no stars.....simpley because there was no star talents besides milicic and sesar, and those 2 hand brain problems

    still, 40-50 good level players and 10-15 good coaches say ex yugo basketball is not dead
    Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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    Senior Member damelo's Avatar
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    Just one question: How is the total population of all the former Yugoslavia?

    Not event 40 millions people?

    Also, when Yugoslavia dominated, most of Europe was not really playing basketball. A few guys got out, for sure. But, Yugoslavia as a whole was the only entity able to compete with USA and USSR. Yet, if USSR developped basketball in one country especially, Lithuania, and it was succesful as we can see, it seems to me Yugoslavia had players from every nation composing it. So, when the country collapsed and seperated, the talent has been split. And with every 10 years an new separation, the talents are less and less concentrated. Also, a smallest federation means smaller means for the same objectives. And more competition, since any time, one decent team is created, while one good team looses some stellar players.

    On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.
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    Senior Member pohani komarac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damelo View Post
    Just one question: How is the total population of all the former Yugoslavia?

    Not event 40 millions people?

    Also, when Yugoslavia dominated, most of Europe was not really playing basketball. A few guys got out, for sure. But, Yugoslavia as a whole was the only entity able to compete with USA and USSR. Yet, if USSR developped basketball in one country especially, Lithuania, and it was succesful as we can see, it seems to me Yugoslavia had players from every nation composing it. So, when the country collapsed and seperated, the talent has been split. And with every 10 years an new separation, the talents are less and less concentrated. Also, a smallest federation means smaller means for the same objectives. And more competition, since any time, one decent team is created, while one good team looses some stellar players.

    On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.
    somwere about 22 to milions

    small talent pool is not problem

    croatia, sloveni and serbia still have depth like few other in europe, but simply no stars who make difrence besides borche mekalebovski
    Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damelo View Post

    On the other side, it seems bigger countries have overpasses their formation backwardness, and with wider populations, they fataly have more potential and talent. Not excluding that Spain for example wants a guy like Mirotic to play with them, or the preldzic story. Other countries have more to offer to multi-national players(And maybe not only in Bball, cf Niko Karabatic, who is the son of a croatian player, born in france and taught handball in France, he chose France). Yugoslavia, with the wars/struggles known by the area, may have lost some attractiveness, and taken a jump backwards in terms of sports.
    regarding Karabatić, he was actually born in NIš (Serbia) from where his mother is and his father (croat) was there playing handball when he met his mother and made Nikola . later they moved to France because's of Branko's (father) career and stayed there..

    and I disagree regarding taking a step back in terms of sports.. I would say that for us (or maybe that was just me) in the 90' sport was the only way to get out from all the shit that was happening and it was also the perfect way to show the world that we exist..
    now there is much less patriotism in it (you can see Montenegro as the newest example of it. when they parted from Serbia their waterpolo team (one of the best in the world) was flying against everyone and now when tensions and patriotism is down the problems appeared), probably because these players today didn't have to prove anything to their former compatriots, but the sport is still the perfect gateway from the low life standard we are actually living in..
    for croatian basketball problems began with Dražen's death in 1993. and the final act was us stepping down from the medal ceremony in Greece in 1995. after that everything fell apart (we can also connect that with arrival of Danko Radić to the top of the basketball pyramid in Croatia) and other sports (mostly handball with it's astonishing results) took over.. slowly over the years dissapointments started to build on and a people lost interest in basketball...

    I do agree with what you said about bigger competition, smaller amount of money available.. that surely plays a big role in this whole story.. but the fact of the matter this is still one of the biggest basketball talent pools on the world and the results aren't showing that..
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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    Senior Member DarkoMVP's Avatar
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    Yugoslavia still has more potential basketball players population - 188+ cm - than Spain.

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    The success of Macedonia shows that success on the international stage will always be very possible. The Macedonians, being perhaps the most different and least inclined to basketball of the former countries... to have pulled out such success shows (I think) how much "mentality" plays a role. Croatia & Serbia still suffer greatly from expectation. Not arrogance, but Serbs & Croats both think & expect to be the best in a lot of sports. The Serbian public was already spitting on the team after the Lithuania game. It's not a healthy attitude most of the Serbian public has. The Serbian team it self has been unique (apart from maybe waterpolo teams) in displaying a strong team effort and good attitude where normally Serbian teams are more inclined to fight amongst them selves. This Serbian generation has been unique for Serbs in terms of attitude (I think mostly because of Ivkovic), but Serbs in general still have a very long way to go in achieving the most healthy sporting attitude such as can be found for instance amongst the Irish who knocked Partizan out recently in the football. I still think this was a good tournament for Serbia. We were limited in the end with a couple injuries and we can even say a couple potential players were missing. I'm proud of these boys but a definite improvement in attitude would have shown if we beat the Greeks. That display shows that our attitude still hasn't evolved near enough.

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    Senior Member damelo's Avatar
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    One question: How can you keep being nationalist when everyday you are from a new country?

    how can Montenegrin be patriots after the country was created by the will of a cocaine Narco?

    About results, you see that even the Great basketball nations of Yugoslavia are calling for US players. Why Croatia needed Draper? What did he really bring? I think it is even more intriguing than McCalebb being Macedonian.

    For the moment, the stars of European Basketball are not from Yougoslavia, they are now from EU, despite a smaller pool of tall guys.

    But probably, after Spain sees the Gasols retire, their level will come back to earth. France without Parker will not remain so high. Germany without Dirk is just a 10-->15 spot, even if the sport seems to be in the right direction in Germany, thanks to Bauermann.

    Adriatic League level is crazy considering the budget of the clubs. France probably has the same kind of budgets, and is not able to make teams of that level. The pool of players is great, formation is great, but maybe the players created by the Yougo system are too much serious, not enough free to play as they wish. Well, when you see Teodosic playing the way he wants, it may not be such a good idea.
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    ^ Your insight is very good. Really though without intending to be dismissive, it's very complicated. You will find much diversity in opinion in each and every country except perhaps Slovenia. We are people that are just not inclined to unity. Unity is like some kind of submission for us. There is even a unique word in the Serbian language, "inat" that can help to understand us. One definition, "an attitude of proud defiance, stubborness and self-preservation - sometimes to the detriment of everyone else or even oneself."

    Please, feel free to discuss politics at non basketball related forums.
    JPF
    Last edited by Joško Poljak Fan; 09-16-2011 at 04:44 PM.

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    Senior Member Fedfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damelo View Post
    One question: How can you keep being nationalist when everyday you are from a new country?
    what nation has to do with country?
    "The worst part is wondering how you’ll find the strength tomorrow to go on doing what you did today and have been doing for much too long,where you’ll find the strength for all that stupid running around,those attempts to escape from crushing necessity,which always founder and serve only to convince you one more time that destiny is implacable,that every night will find you down and out,crushed by the dread of more and more sordid and insecure tomorrows.~Céline

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    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damelo View Post
    About results, you see that even the Great basketball nations of Yugoslavia are calling for US players. Why Croatia needed Draper? What did he really bring? I think it is even more intriguing than McCalebb being Macedonian.
    well, we had Draper because our federation together with our coach tought we are one good PG away from being a contender and the truth is we are one federation and one coach away from being contender.. I don't see that happening again anytime soon..

    Quote Originally Posted by damelo View Post
    Well, when you see Teodosic playing the way he wants, it may not be such a good idea.
    I almost fell from the chair
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedfan View Post
    what nation has to do with country?
    ? Perhaps you don't understand English well enough. Nationality is pretty much citizenship of a country. It doesn't necessarily have a correlation with identity (ethnicity). Nationalism has a completely different meaning. I suppose since they sound similar they can cause confusion.

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    Senior Member Fedfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    ? Perhaps you don't understand English well enough. Nationality is pretty much citizenship of a country. It doesn't necessarily have a correlation with identity (ethnicity). Nationalism has a completely different meaning. I suppose since they sound similar they can cause confusion.
    "Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state, usually determined by their citizenship, but sometimes by ethnicity or place of residence, or based on their sense of national identity."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

    not synonyms.
    "The worst part is wondering how you’ll find the strength tomorrow to go on doing what you did today and have been doing for much too long,where you’ll find the strength for all that stupid running around,those attempts to escape from crushing necessity,which always founder and serve only to convince you one more time that destiny is implacable,that every night will find you down and out,crushed by the dread of more and more sordid and insecure tomorrows.~Céline

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    Member Tesla's Avatar
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    ^ That's right. So what don't you understand? What was your actual question?

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    Senior Member Fedfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    ^ That's right. So what don't you understand? What was your actual question?
    nation is not synonym with country so damelo's question is invalid since a nation identity can eXist irregardless of the country's age.
    "The worst part is wondering how you’ll find the strength tomorrow to go on doing what you did today and have been doing for much too long,where you’ll find the strength for all that stupid running around,those attempts to escape from crushing necessity,which always founder and serve only to convince you one more time that destiny is implacable,that every night will find you down and out,crushed by the dread of more and more sordid and insecure tomorrows.~Céline

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    Anyway, Croatia has had the biggest fall. That's maybe why Picek posted this. Do we also now claim there is a rise in "Macedonian" basketball? I don't think so. It's fucking amazing that every single ex-yu country managed to qualify for this tournament in the first place. Macedonia finished last in the ex-yu tournament, and above all others in this one. Go figure. It's such a strong tournament as well. The other countries are above their normal standard as well.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    Anyway, Croatia has had the biggest fall. That's maybe why Picek posted this. Do we also now claim there is a rise in "Macedonian" basketball? I don't think so. It's fucking amazing that every single ex-yu country managed to qualify for this tournament in the first place. Macedonia finished last in the ex-yu tournament, and above all others in this one. Go figure. It's such a strong tournament as well. The other countries are above their normal standard as well.
    come on, you have to agree that finishing 7/8 is a downfall from being a finalist last time around and from being a semifinalist of last WC..
    and all of that with virtually the same team only with a bit more expirience and years of playing together..
    and I don't think slovenians are happy with this result either.. game play even more..
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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    Senior Member UMUT_FB_LAL's Avatar
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    Bosnia and Montenegro never were great, Macedonia is having its best year ever, Croatia hasn't been relevant since Drazen passed away, Slovenia contends in Eurobasket every once in a while and that's all they'll ever do..

    Yugoslavian basketball means Serbia..
    They reached the final in 2009 and the final four in 2010, just because they had a lesser year, which is completely normal, it doesn't mean bball is on the decline

    Very opportunistic thread
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    Senior Member Picek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UMUT_FB_LAL View Post
    Croatia hasn't been relevant since Drazen passed away,
    that is true and simply a fact although medal in 1995. was won without Dražen..
    however, being on the last OG (but since you have such an attitude I most respond on it, being on OG is something Turkey hasn't achieved in more then 60 years) and not being on this one is a fall..
    for Serbia, missing on a second consecutive OG tournament is surely a problem..
    that is if you think of OG as the greatest basketball tournament like I do..
    "Heja, heja Cibosi, hrabri kao vukovi,

    heja, heja cibosi, vodite nas k pobjedi. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by UMUT_FB_LAL View Post

    Yugoslavian basketball means Serbia..
    don't write nonsense. in ex yu teams the majority of players always came from croatia. in every single tournament more than 50% players were croats. now serbia is better, but that doesn't mean yugo basket means serbia

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