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Croatian NT 2011

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  • From what I have seen in the first game against Serbia he has very bad hands. Three or four balls that the guards passed him he fumbled. I dont know much about him but he looked like a B class player. His defence wasnt particularly good. Markota was better at every segment of the game, and Markota is no Jordan. All in all Croatia could use Kukoch now. He would probably even now, in his fourties and slowed down be good enough for the PF spot in this squad. Weakest link right now in your team.

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    • Guys, why B.Bogdanovic did not play against GB?
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      • Originally posted by MarkoMilic View Post
        Guys, why B.Bogdanovic did not play against GB?
        He was rested. No injury.

        Croatia is with 13 players in London and only 12 is allowed to dress for particular game. They're with only 5 big men there (Tomic, Barac, Zoric, Andric, Markota), so in each game coach rests one of guards (or GF). Against Serbia he rested Vrkic and against weaker Great Britain Bogdanovic rested.

        That is official. Now my speculations.

        I suppose coach will use Popovic and Tomas (that joined team later because of injuries) and Draper (newcomer to team) in all 5 games, to make those three players gell better with rest of team. While Vrkic or Car being rest ed against strong opposition, and probably Simon or Stipcevic (or Bogdanovic again) versus weak China.

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        • Context:
          Situation in Croatian Basketball Federation is bad. Not in a sense being chaotic, federation can afford for NT team and other selections preparations (no problem with paying hotels, doctor & physio, flying tickets or similar) as there is few sponsors. But there is no good work with young talents, no serious work with young coaches. There are formal seminars, but those are for fat asses from federation to rest in Dubrovnik or elsewhere on the coast, lecturers are people like Pepsi Bozic (what possible one can learn from him, maybe where good restaurants are?) or Darko Kunce (great guy, great scout, but zero of a coach). Croatia basketball goes down every year a bit despite big talents, all those U-16 gold medals become 8th places until age of U-19 or U-20. Main reason is president of federation, Danko Radic, former referee without any formal education, popularly called El Presidente. He surrounded him with his comrades from refereeing days, they share knowing secrets useful for blackmailing others in CRO basketball. Even if those people from federation would want to do something useful for Croatian basketball ... they could not, they have no intellectual or organizing abilities.

          Coach:
          Spahija was coach until 2005, he's simply great coach. From 2006 to 2009 Jasmin Repesa was head coach. He was not so good, but OK. He was great strategist, having team with no star but with great depth, he would turn it in his favor during championships: those tournaments have crazy schedule, rotating almost all 12 players in early games, he would have fresh team near end of tournament (or at least much fresher than other teams overusing their starters) and somehow he would snatch something around 6th place, placed above some teams with stronger rosters. But in 2009 Repesa lost reigns over the team, team was divided into clans (probably because of washed-out Vujcic lobbying himself back into NT). It was very weak championship in Poland 2009 (compared to other in this decade), most of NBA players was not there, some teams had multiple injuries - most of top teams were crippled, while Croatia was with almost strongest possible roster. Paradoxically - but rightfully - 6th place was considered as underachievement in Croatia, despite similar placements in recent previous tournaments being considered success. So Repesa left.
          After search for his replacement ... shock. Joke Vrankovic. Everybody stunned. He was good player, but unimaginative. In short coaching career, only failures. No formal education. Communicating skills low to level that he's having trouble with finishing sentences. But that was ideal coach for El Presidente. Vrankovic (soon he get nickname "Dzouk" = Croatian written English word "joke") took job that is way, way over his head - so he is completely dependent on El Presidente, and easy accepts all hints. Also, great scapegoat when things inevitable go south (not if but when) . Led by Vrankovic Croatia finished 14th at World Championship, reached top 16 thanks to easy draw, Tunisia with almost no pro players and Iran with only Haddadi of their key players being present in Turkey. Croatia won those 2 games (I would really like to see what would happen Croatia versus complete Iran) and lost all other games.
          Dzouk is big handicap to this team, practically always overcoached by opposition. I call him "distraction" - in a sense that for players it would be much better to listen music during pre-game, timeouts and halftime instead of hearing his meaningless yapping.

          Notes before remarks about players:
          When I say average player, I mean average for Croatian NT standards. That is all very relative: for teams like Serbia or Lithuania such player wouldn't be even listed in wide roster of 24 players. But for teams like Latvia or Bosnia& Herzegovina, such player would be in 12-men roster for sure, if not starter.
          Perhaps it may seem I'm too harsh to some of our guys, but those players that I mark as "average" can have dominant game against weak teams, or (fluke) great game vs some strong team - but in those big games against top teams they can not make difference (in fact, may make negative difference)

          Other remark is about many guards in preliminary roster: until Bogdanovic's breakout Euroleague season 2009-10, Croatia had weak spot in SG position. Until last summer, Croatia played with 2 PGs in pair for great majority of game time. In those few seasons (since after summer 2005 Giricek retired from NT team), Tomas was either injured or played exclusively at other not deep spot, SF. Bogdanovic can not play all 40 minutes and anyway he's designated to play some SF minutes while Tomas rests. It really doesn't matter when both are on court who is 2 or 3, Tomas is better ball handler so he is more of 2 in offense, and he's also better on-ball defender so he takes to guard biggest (SF) opposing man or best one (even if it's PG as Teodosic).
          At start of preparation Tomas came injured, so there was chance Bogdanovic would play many (if not all) minutes at SF, if Tomas is out for tournament. So 3 pretty no-name SGs were called to preparations: Simon, Car, Vrkic and survived all cuts and are in last 13 now. Until Ukic's injury it looked like they all 3 could be cut, at most one being in final 12 (with Ukic and Stipcevic at 1, Draper and Popovic 1/2 and Bogdanovic/Tomas at 2/3 + 5 biggies = 11, question was Rudez as 6th biggie or 5 biggies only and one of those 3). But now with Ukic's broken leg and Rudez's pneumonia 2 of those 3 are destined to see Lithuania.

          Gameplan remark: I think Vrankovic's main idea was to play pick&roll Ukic&Tomic surrounded with 3 shooters. Probably he watched Croatian women national team that played that way early this summer with surprising success (5th at Eurobasket) . For that reason he cut Banic and Loncar (reasonable defenders but bad outside shooters, Banic is reluctant to shoot from outside,while Loncar unfortunately is not reluctant) and called Markota and Rudez (biggies that can shoot 3-pointers, but skinny and easily physically overmatched if opponent plays with true PF).

          Short remarks about players as post is already too long. Alphabetically
          FC Luksa Andric - good shooter, but can't hit a 3-pointer, soft player (gets easily scared after few tough fouls and/or blocked shots) and defensive liability
          C Stanko Barac - very good player, deadly mid-range jumper, but soft in defense
          GF Bojan Bogdanovic - Big upside, will be great player, but young and inexperienced.
          SG Marko Car - average player, needs anger management course. I'm surprised walking technical foul is called into NT
          G Dontaye Draper - he's OK, better than Stipcevic or Simon for sure, but I don't see we get some big advantage with adding him (certainly less than amount of shame we get for making him Croatian)
          F Damir Markota - average player, but he's biggie that shoots 3-pointers.
          G Marko Popovic - too shoot-first oriented for PG, too small for SG, giant defensive liability ... but on a good shooting day scores in bunches, when he's "in the zone" Kirk Penney looks like average player compared to him
          SG Krunoslav Simon - average player
          PG Rok Stipcevic - average player, if not bellow average
          GF Marko Tomas - great player, but sometimes defers to teammates too much + multiple injuries stopped his development to bonafide star
          C Ante Tomic - Big upside, could be great player, great court vision for center - but skinny for center plus young and inexperienced
          GF Zoran Vrkic - average player
          FC Luka Zoric - true warrior, only capable defender among biggies on this roster. As he doesn't play 40 minutes a game and is only backup, obviously he's not very skillful in offense

          Conclusion
          In this 24-team of Eurobasket Croatia is middle-of-the-pack team. If it was usual 16-teams format, then we would be among lowest placed. Despite his shortcomings (ball hogging, not enough trust in teammates so shooting too much, not a good clutch player although he believes he is), PG Ukic is still best Croatian player and will be missed badly. Awful coach is not insurmountable handicap as some other teams also have lousy and/or inexperienced coaches, but is quite a big handicap. Once again too many offensive players and too many defensive liabilities on roster, as in past it could again cause some wins over nominal favorites (on a day when shots are falling in) , yet losses to inferior teams (on a day when offense is not clicking, as incapable defense is always allowing a lot of points).
          Good thing is good draw, other half of draw is much tougher with 6 strong teams and we would have 0.01% chances for progressing to quarterfinals. In this half of group we should lose to strong Russia and we traditionally lose to Greece and if new Greek coach does not change winning plan for sake of change we will lose again despite Greece missing more than a half of team. Our chance is against Slovenia (some key players out due to injury) and Montenegro (bad bench). Win in 1 of those 2 games should be enough for quarterfinals, as we are better than other 7 teams in our weak half of draw and should easily win any of those. But that is big "should", as I said above Croats usually has big ups&downs during tournament, in 1 game only practically can "win anyone, but also can lose to anyone ".

          Best case scenario: win over Slovenia and/or Montenegro, heavy quarterfinal loss, we finish 8th as QF would be only by luck anyway (favorable draw)
          Worst case scenario: loss to both Slovenia and Montenegro, we finish 9th to 12th (though would be 13th to 16th had draw put us in tougher half of draw).

          Whichever happens, El Presidente will say: "This is great success. Especially as our younger players get much needed experience. Coach Vrankovic has my full support."

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          • uh, good post but little bit to pesimistic

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            • Originally posted by Silvio View Post
              Context:
              Short remarks about players as post is already too long. Alphabetically
              FC Luksa Andric - good shooter, but can't hit a 3-pointer, soft player (gets easily scared after few tough fouls and/or blocked shots) and defensive liability
              C Stanko Barac - very good player, deadly mid-range jumper, but soft in defense
              GF Bojan Bogdanovic - Best player in the team and a top 5 European young talent at the moment
              SG Marko Car - average player, needs anger management course. I'm surprised walking technical foul is called into NT
              G Dontaye Draper - he's below average, not much better than Stipcevic or Simon for sure, but I don't see we get some big advantage with adding him (certainly less than amount of shame we get for making him Croatian)
              F Damir Markota - good role player, but he's biggie that shoots 3-pointers.
              G Marko Popovic - too shoot-first oriented for PG, too small for SG, giant defensive liability ... but on a good shooting day scores in bunches, when he's "in the zone" Kirk Penney looks like average player compared to him
              SG Krunoslav Simon - solid back up sg, can be a positive surprise. Has balls, plays to win.
              PG Rok Stipcevic - average player, if not bellow average
              GF Marko Tomas - very good role player, always defers to teammates too much + multiple injuries stopped his development to bonafide star
              C Ante Tomic - Big upside, could be great player, great court vision for center - but skinny for center plus young and inexperienced (a Real Madrid 24 year old is young and inexperienced?)
              GF Zoran Vrkic - below average player
              FC Luka Zoric - true warrior, only capable defender among biggies on this roster. As he doesn't play 40 minutes a game and is only backup, obviously he's on Ben Wallaces level on offence
              Fixed it.

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              • Originally posted by kololoco View Post
                Fixed it.
                Look, kololoco, do you know how many official games Tomic played for Croatia NT? Answer is 6 (six), all six last summer in Turkey. I think he played once at Mediterranean Games, but that's not serious competition, Croatia sends B-team there.

                For 5 summers Tomic was told he's too young for NT team. Then suddenly, Croatian coaches, media and partially public says to him he's key player, he's almost savior of the nation in 2010 and now again. I really don't understand it, it is not possible for player to make such a leap. He was visible uncomfortable in Turkey last summer and did many rookie mistakes - combination of inexperience at NT tournaments and too much pressure.

                I don't understand why extra talents like Tomic yesterday, Saric today or Hezonja tomorrow are not called for Croatia NT in their early days. OK, if they're too young (physically inferior) to seriously contribute, why not take them as 12th or 11th player to feel atmosphere, to get some minutes in blowout games. Normal way for such players (those big talents, not half-products like Delas or Prostran) should be: end of bench player with 18-19 yrs, backup with 20-21 yrs, starter with 22-23 (unless position is well covered), then key player with 24-25 years old. But for Tomic it was: not in NT 2007-2009, yet expected to be key player in 2010.

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                • some people found dontaye's draper twitter page, so we can see how hard he is working on preparations lol "What a night!!!!! London, I will be back! Lol. Especially Whisky Mist and Maddox!!!!"

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                  • Originally posted by Silvio View Post
                    Look, kololoco, do you know how many official games Tomic played for Croatia NT? Answer is 6 (six), all six last summer in Turkey. I think he played once at Mediterranean Games, but that's not serious competition, Croatia sends B-team there.

                    For 5 summers Tomic was told he's too young for NT team. Then suddenly, Croatian coaches, media and partially public says to him he's key player, he's almost savior of the nation in 2010 and now again. I really don't understand it, it is not possible for player to make such a leap. He was visible uncomfortable in Turkey last summer and did many rookie mistakes - combination of inexperience at NT tournaments and too much pressure.

                    I don't understand why extra talents like Tomic yesterday, Saric today or Hezonja tomorrow are not called for Croatia NT in their early days. OK, if they're too young (physically inferior) to seriously contribute, why not take them as 12th or 11th player to feel atmosphere, to get some minutes in blowout games. Normal way for such players (those big talents, not half-products like Delas or Prostran) should be: end of bench player with 18-19 yrs, backup with 20-21 yrs, starter with 22-23 (unless position is well covered), then key player with 24-25 years old. But for Tomic it was: not in NT 2007-2009, yet expected to be key player in 2010.
                    I agree with everything you said. Big mistake by the previous coaches. Especially since he was not left out of the squad for some premium players. That is what happens when coaches have no guts.

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                    • I think Croatia will do nothing in Lithuania.Saric must be in squad but it seems impossible.Croatia is already ordinary team but they have great talents for future like Saric,Hezonja and Mavra... I wonder the Crotian team in 2013-2014.

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                      • Originally posted by turk-jugoslav View Post
                        I think Croatia will do nothing in Lithuania.Saric must be in squad but it seems impossible.Croatia is already ordinary team but they have great talents for future like Saric,Hezonja and Mavra... I wonder the Crotian team in 2013-2014.
                        future world and european champions

                        katić, ukić, b žganec, mavra, brzoja, bogdanović, hezonja, tomas, šarić, b barać, zubčić, radošević, k žganec, m arapović, tomić, s barać

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                        • How were Bogdanovic and Marko Tomas's performances in the preparation games ?
                          The Lighthouse in the Darkest Seas

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                          • bogdanovic was best scorer in most of games, tomas did very good all round jub considering he had problem with injurys

                            car and vrkic are sent home

                            final roster:

                            draper, popovic, stipcevic
                            bogdanovic, simon
                            tomas, rudez
                            markota, andric
                            tomic, barac, zoric
                            Jordi Bertomeu sucks!

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                            • Code:
                              Andric, Luksa      2.10  FC  1985  Galatasaray (TUR)
                              Barac, Stanko      2.16  C   1986  Anadolu Efes (TUR)
                              Bogdanovic, Bojan  2.00  GF  1989  Fenerbahçe Ülker (TUR)
                              Draper, Dontaye    1.80  G   1984  Cedevita
                              Markota, Damir     2.08  F   1985  Union Olimpija (SLO)
                              Popovic, Marko     1.85  G   1982  Zalgiris (LTU)
                              Rudez, Damjan      2.08  F   1986  Cedevita
                              Simon, Krunoslav   1.97  SG  1985  KK Zagreb
                              Stipcevic, Rok     1.84  PG  1986  Pallacanestro Varese (ITA)
                              Tomas, Marko       2.02  GF  1985  Fenerbahçe Ülker (TUR)
                              Tomic, Ante        2.17  C   1987  Real Madrid (ESP)
                              Zoric, Luka        2.11  FC  1984  Unicaja Málaga (ESP)
                              I think it will be

                              PG Draper 25 / Popovic 15
                              SG Bogdanovic 15 / Simon 15 / Popovic 10
                              SF Tomas 25 / Bogdanovic 15
                              PF Andric 10 / Markota 20 / Zoric 10
                              C Tomic 25 / Barac 15

                              Stipcevic, Rudez to play small roles.
                              Andric seems to be kind of token starter PF. It seems Vrankovic is afraid with Markota (or Rudez) starting along Tomic we are even more vulnerable in paint defense. And with Barac (or Zoric) starting in a pair with Tomic to be too slow . Which is all kind of true ... but that raises question about selection. Fact is Croatia-2011 offensively plays best when Markota & Tomic are on the floor, while defense is sh**ty anyway.

                              But I maybe wrong, Vrankovic doesn't speak a lot, probably he wants to surprise opponents ... and all of us. At the end he'll probably surprise himself too.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Silvio View Post
                                Code:
                                Andric, Luksa      2.10  FC  1985  Galatasaray (TUR)
                                Barac, Stanko      2.16  C   1986  Anadolu Efes (TUR)
                                Bogdanovic, Bojan  2.00  GF  1989  Fenerbahçe Ülker (TUR)
                                Draper, Dontaye    1.80  G   1984  Cedevita
                                Markota, Damir     2.08  F   1985  Union Olimpija (SLO)
                                Popovic, Marko     1.85  G   1982  Zalgiris (LTU)
                                Rudez, Damjan      2.08  F   1986  Cedevita
                                Simon, Krunoslav   1.97  SG  1985  KK Zagreb
                                Stipcevic, Rok     1.84  PG  1986  Pallacanestro Varese (ITA)
                                Tomas, Marko       2.02  GF  1985  Fenerbahçe Ülker (TUR)
                                Tomic, Ante        2.17  C   1987  Real Madrid (ESP)
                                Zoric, Luka        2.11  FC  1984  Unicaja Málaga (ESP)
                                I think it will be

                                PG Draper 25 / Popovic 15
                                SG Bogdanovic 15 / Simon 15 / Popovic 10
                                SF Tomas 25 / Bogdanovic 15
                                PF Andric 10 / Markota 20 / Zoric 10
                                C Tomic 25 / Barac 15

                                Stipcevic, Rudez to play small roles.
                                Andric seems to be kind of token starter PF. It seems Vrankovic is afraid with Markota (or Rudez) starting along Tomic we are even more vulnerable in paint defense. And with Barac (or Zoric) starting in a pair with Tomic to be too slow . Which is all kind of true ... but that raises question about selection. Fact is Croatia-2011 offensively plays best when Markota & Tomic are on the floor, while defense is sh**ty anyway.

                                But I maybe wrong, Vrankovic doesn't speak a lot, probably he wants to surprise opponents ... and all of us. At the end he'll probably surprise himself too.
                                That Stipcevic is a joke, right? I mean, I watched game against France. His jumpshot goes in my special category - ugliest jumshot technique in the history of basketball...

                                His ball handling is also terrible, I think he makes a lot of double dribbles...
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