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Thread: Mark Cuban on WC-"the NBA is making a huge mistake"

  1. #41
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    And I don't believe the refs show deferential treatment, either. It's simplistic to the extreme.
    Are you KIDDING me???

    No preferential treatment?

    None whatsoever???

    Really?

    I believe you (Michelle) brought up a lot of valid arguments regarding the NBA and its sources of revenue and fair weather fans but the sentence quoted above renders, imo, your entire argument void and meaningless.

  2. #42
    Senior Member mktackabery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy
    Are you KIDDING me???

    No preferential treatment?

    None whatsoever???

    Really?

    I believe you (Michelle) brought up a lot of valid arguments regarding the NBA and its sources of revenue and fair weather fans but the sentence quoted above renders, imo, your entire argument void and meaningless.
    oh come now, Billy, isn't that throwing the baby out with the bath water? I didn't say no preferential treatment or that they never got preferential treatment, just that it's simplistic to think that they just get away with whatever they want and that's the way it is.

    I'm presuming (dangerous word) preferential treatment is 100% deferment to them; they couldn't possibly treat them all like emperors and always give them their way. Of course they sometimes get calls, so do coaches, and a lot of times refs just don't see them play dirty or get away with things, but they have to have some balance. and I know I've seen instances where refs pick on a player on purpose to knock him down a peg or two, which God knows, in the NBA a lot of players should have happen more often.

    Hey, I'm no NBA apologist. Watch the ACC. Then you can complain that the refs always give Coach K preferential treatment.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Waneko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    I disagree strongly with this. NBA revenue mainly comes from national advertisers - sponsorships - television contracts; and most exposure for teams comes through television. Fair weather fans watch it on tv and don't have to even go to the arenas; even if they wanted to they couldn't afford it.

    The flattening of media in the U.S. means anyone with a basic cable subscription can see two to five NBA games during the regular season without trying hard at all. If you have an extended cable or satellite connection like I do, you can catch almost any team, even on the opposite coast, and if you want to spend even just a little more money, you can see all the teams on a subscription. For the cost of one night of NBA basketball, I could subscribe and see every single game, every single team, on my television. An NBA all access pass, or whatever it's called, goes for about $160, which is the cost of a first-tier ticket at the Charlotte Bobcats. I can drive two hours to see the Bobcats, but I have only done so when I had free tickets provided to me by the television stations on which our law firm advertises. And I like the Bobcats, more or less. I prefer watching college ball, but I'm ready to get on the bandwagon if Morrison pans out.

    Arena revenue comes from local businesses primarily which buy sky boxes and blocks of seats; ticket prices have to be extremely high to justify the cost of investment in the arenas the NBA wants; contracts are ridiculously large for players. Blaming all of this on individual play versus team play is short-sighted in my opinion. It's like the chicken and the egg argument. And I don't believe the refs show deferential treatment, either. It's simplistic to the extreme.
    Sorry, I didn't mean to indicate that the revenue came directly from the fair weather fans. Of course the NBA gets their revenue from sponsorship and televesion, but my point was that they wouldn't if the game didn't appeal to the masses, as opposed to just basketball junkies. Without the fair weather fans the television ratings would be lower and that would mean less tv money and less advertising bucks.

    As for the contracts being rediculously large, I disagree. Why shouldn't the players get what the market will bear?

    As for the refs, the treatment they give stars is so obvious that broadcasters routinely point it out. And when they do, it isn't out of protest. It's quite clear that they condone it.

    If you don't think the individual style of play plays a role in the U.S. not winning international tournaments, then what do you think it is?
    Last edited by Waneko; 09-20-2006 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member mktackabery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waneko
    If you don't think the individual style of play plays a role in the U.S. not winning international tournaments, then what do you think it is?
    This may strike you as simplistic, but in my terms it's a marketing problem - share of voice - international basketball does not have the market share in the U.S., and the employers (NBA teams) are not vested in giving them any. From their point of view, why should they (Cuban's point)? They market their product aggressively, they lock their players in with big contracts, (separate issue, I'm all for paying people what they are worth, but I don't care what you do, no one is worth millions of dollars for athletics and I am not disparaging anyone's talent), long exhausting seasons - what's the return for sharing their players with international fans?

    Of course it would be better basketball IMHO but the NBA doesn't owe anyone better basketball, they owe shareholders and owners and players, and for players to work, they have to play in the system, and without some system there is no basketball . . . in Cuban's terms there is no upside to a true international league that would include the U.S. . . . I guess that's the problem.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Waneko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    This may strike you as simplistic, but in my terms it's a marketing problem - share of voice - international basketball does not have the market share in the U.S., and the employers (NBA teams) are not vested in giving them any. From their point of view, why should they (Cuban's point)? They market their product aggressively, they lock their players in with big contracts, (separate issue, I'm all for paying people what they are worth, but I don't care what you do, no one is worth millions of dollars for athletics and I am not disparaging anyone's talent), long exhausting seasons - what's the return for sharing their players with international fans?

    Of course it would be better basketball IMHO but the NBA doesn't owe anyone better basketball, they owe shareholders and owners and players, and for players to work, they have to play in the system, and without some system there is no basketball . . . in Cuban's terms there is no upside to a true international league that would include the U.S. . . . I guess that's the problem.
    You're right that the NBA doesn't owe anything to the international game. I don't make any association with player salaries and whether they should feel obligated to play for team U.S.A. The players should do it for national pride, nothing more.

    The feelings that get hurt when the U.S. loses tend to be the folks who think the U.S. should be able to win every game. It is they who has to demand a different product from the NBA or they should stop watching. I don't see that happening though because too many folks still insist the NBA is by far the most superior league despite NBA players not winning the gold. As a form of denial it might even draw Americans closer to the NBA than before, you never know.

  6. #46
    Senior Member mktackabery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waneko
    You're right that the NBA doesn't owe anything to the international game. I don't make any association with player salaries and whether they should feel obligated to play for team U.S.A. The players should do it for national pride, nothing more.

    The feelings that get hurt when the U.S. loses tend to be the folks who think the U.S. should be able to win every game. It is they who has to demand a different product from the NBA or they should stop watching. I don't see that happening though because too many folks still insist the NBA is by far the most superior league despite NBA players not winning the gold. As a form of denial it might even draw Americans closer to the NBA than before, you never know.
    I agree with you on that, although I have no idea where the superior image comes from . . . the NBA bores me to tears most of the time, especially the first half of the year - so many games, the players don't even care until February. No wonder they have to do so much other stuff during the games to keep the fans awake.
    Michelle Tackabery
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    And I don't believe the refs show deferential treatment, either. It's simplistic to the extreme.
    So we have gone from not believeing the refs show preferential treament as its simplistic to extreme to...

    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    oh come now, Billy, isn't that throwing the baby out with the bath water? I didn't say no preferential treatment or that they never got preferential treatment, just that it's simplistic to think that they just get away with whatever they want and that's the way it is.

    I'm presuming (dangerous word) preferential treatment is 100% deferment to them; they couldn't possibly treat them all like emperors and always give them their way. Of course they sometimes get calls, so do coaches, and a lot of times refs just don't see them play dirty or get away with things, but they have to have some balance. and I know I've seen instances where refs pick on a player on purpose to knock him down a peg or two, which God knows, in the NBA a lot of players should have happen more often.
    ...admitting there is SOME preferential treament?

    My argument is that it is so exceptionally clear that some players get away with palming/traveling/screen setting/pushing that it absolutely kills their abilities as basketball players when they have to face referees less likely to let them get away with rule violations. Like in the WC/Oly games.

    What I wanted was for you to admit to this, perhaps I took it to the extreme when claiming your entire post as nonsense but something as obvious as preferential treament in the NBA needs to be aknowledged.
    I feel its a plague and I believe it needs to be delt with so as to save the future of basketball in the USA from the highschool level and onwards.

  8. #48
    Senior Member mktackabery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy
    What I wanted was for you to admit to this, perhaps I took it to the extreme when claiming your entire post as nonsense but something as obvious as preferential treament in the NBA needs to be aknowledged.
    I feel its a plague and I believe it needs to be delt with so as to save the future of basketball in the USA from the highschool level and onwards.
    ok, uncle!!! I admit it! There may be some preferential treatment and some deferential treatment (they do call him King James after all) of NBA players.

    I guess I see your point . . . (I can't believe I'm prolonging this discussion with you. I think you and I will have to be separated at some point, me on one side of the room, you on the other ). For the past fifteen years the entire NBA has encouraged a punk/"gangsta" mentality. Now David Stern wants them all to stop wearing chains, cover up their tattoos and stop with the gang signs, and it is too late. It is not good basketball. There we agree, but I'll bet you won't admit it. Harumph.

    LeBron is the real deal though, I'm telling you. . . wait until the Olympics, it is going to be something.

    And now I will pull a gangsta on you and say "Peace out."
    Michelle Tackabery
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    Quote Originally Posted by mktackabery
    LeBron is the real deal though, I'm telling you. . . wait until the Olympics, it is going to be something.
    Are you serious?

  10. #50
    Senior Member mktackabery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YYY
    Are you serious?
    not going there, not going there . . . I am in a Zen place and I cannot be disturbed by doubters and haters who continue to taunt me about the U.S. team.
    Michelle Tackabery
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    The USA has problems because of the Zone defenses. If you played NBA style rules. Man to Man defense,it would be a whole different ball game,but you have to respect the international rules. Maybe they should play by the NBA rules for a olympics,and see what happens. Guy's like Wade,Lebron,Kobe,if you take away the Zone,now there able to get to the basket with consistency,and now its a whole different game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe24
    The USA has problems because of the Zone defenses. If you played NBA style rules. Man to Man defense,it would be a whole different ball game,but you have to respect the international rules. Maybe they should play by the NBA rules for a olympics,and see what happens. Guy's like Wade,Lebron,Kobe,if you take away the Zone,now there able to get to the basket with consistency,and now its a whole different game.
    excuses... US strugelled against man to man defense as well quite often. and it's not the zone... it's fundamentals

    playing by NBA rules? NBA is the only league that actually uses those rules, just to make the game more attractive, while the rest of the world is satisfied with the rules the way they are. And considering how fast Stern and co. can change the rules I don't think anyone will have even a slight dilema which rules to play with at the olympics
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

  13. #53
    Senior Member Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe24
    The USA has problems because of the Zone defenses. If you played NBA style rules. Man to Man defense,it would be a whole different ball game,but you have to respect the international rules. Maybe they should play by the NBA rules for a olympics,and see what happens. Guy's like Wade,Lebron,Kobe,if you take away the Zone,now there able to get to the basket with consistency,and now its a whole different game.
    Why should the rest of the world have to give up smarts, teamwork and ten plus years of preparations for these tournaments for some under educated, over hyped ball hoggers?

    What for -to drag the rest of the world down to the NBA level?

    I think I speak for everyone when I say no thank you.

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    If you put NBA rules in,it would be a huge difference. Defensively,it would be a much bigger challenge. The zones allow you to cheat defensively,and not have to guard guys 1 on 1. You have to respect those rules,but it would be very interesting to see,them play by NBA rules. Just once. Dwayne Wade,and Lebron have struggled against the zones,but there is no way you guard these guys with Man to Man defense. NBA Rules,your big man are not allowed to just camp in the piant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kobe24
    If you put NBA rules in,it would be a huge difference. Defensively,it would be a much bigger challenge. The zones allow you to cheat defensively,and not have to guard guys 1 on 1. You have to respect those rules,but it would be very interesting to see,them play by NBA rules. Just once. Dwayne Wade,and Lebron have struggled against the zones,but there is no way you guard these guys with Man to Man defense. NBA Rules,your big man are not allowed to just camp in the piant.
    Maybe we should just have one player from each country and just play one on one then Lebron could jab step and pick up his pivot foot and step with it before even dribbling and put down a big 2point dunk like hedid when we wre down 6points in a 2 possession game against Greece .. Ha go Hellas
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    Senior Member mavs128's Avatar
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    It's shocking to me how little respect people seem to have for NBA basketball. Does no one watch the Mavericks, or the Spurs, or the Pistons, or the Suns? Beautiful basketball that would win at any level in any league.

    The NBA clearly has built itself on individual talent. That is what's marketable....and the NBA is more about entertainment than anything else. There is preferential treatment, but it's not some conspiracy. The best players on a team rise to the top, and so they get the ball the most and the most shots. They in turn get the most face time on TV, become the biggest personalities, get the ball even more. When they are the total focul point of the offense and pretty much have free reign to do whatever they want to with the ball, it becomes easy at that point to expose the NBA's weakest area in the rules, which make one-on-one defending almost impossible.

    The NBA is COMPLETELY different from international basketball. It's easy to tell just by watching the games. NBA games are wide-open, even in the half-court. Everything is more spread out. The 2-man game or the on-one-on game dominates. Zones are alot of the time seen as a sign of weakness...."real men play strait up man-to-man defense". NBA players don't have near the experience against zones as international teams. And when you face a zone, you HAVE to have good decision makers on the floor. The US team lacked that BIG time this year (Lebron is a talented passer, not a good decision maker).

    IMO one of the biggest reasons why the US struggled in pick-and-roll situations against Greece is the different ways the moving pick rules are interpreted. in the WC, the greek players were pretty much bodily moving the players they were picking. In the NBA this is illegal...you must remain stationary at all times while setting a pick. I remember watching the US-Greece game and making a tally of pick after pick after pick that would've been illegal in an NBA game (I should know, I watch Erick Dampier of the mavericks on a nightly basis and he probably gets called for it more than anyone).

    And I don't buy the whole lack of fundementals thing. Sarunas Jasikevicious was supposed to be the prototypical European player, fundementally sound, a great passer, decision maker, shooter, etc. Well he probably leads the NBA right now in ball-handling violations (double-dribbles, palming, travels), he's getting tons of wide-open jumpers and can't hardly hit anything, and his decision making has been mediocre at best. Now, what do you think is more likely. Sarunas is really just a terrible player? Or the leagues that he'd been playing in for the past 10 years were VASTLY different than what he was facing in the NBA? Different, not better or worse.


    And by the way from what I've read Papaloukas and Navarro (if he can work out his buyout) could all be coming stateside for next year. Scola would've been here long ago if an NBA team wanted him. Europe's best young players all go to the NBA (ecxluding Vasquez, who it seemed has other personal factors that came into play). The NBA is still where the MAJORITY of players want to play. This should tell you all you need to know. And, BTW, the NBA is much better for it.
    Last edited by mavs128; 08-06-2007 at 08:38 AM.

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    Senior Member Juan Carlos Nadal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavs128
    from what I've read Diamantidis, Papaloukas, (...) could all be coming stateside for next year.
    Where exactly did you read that? Diamantidis has openly stated that he is not interested in the NBA, and Paps has just signed a new big contract with CSKA, rejecting offers from NBA teams as they did not satisfy him (thus extremely unlikely to move stateside).

    As for Navarro.... Despite his good season so far, not many teams I think will be willing to pay his buy-out...
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    Senior Member mavs128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Carlos Nadal
    Where exactly did you read that? Diamantidis has openly stated that he is not interested in the NBA, and Paps has just signed a new big contract with CSKA, rejecting offers from NBA teams as they did not satisfy him (thus extremely unlikely to move stateside).

    As for Navarro.... Despite his good season so far, not many teams I think will be willing to pay his buy-out...

    With Navarro, no one would be willing to pay the buyout, but Barcelona might be willing to negotiate it down if they got some perks out of it. He is the most important of the 3, because his game translates the best, he is the one that would definetely have NBA teams interested.

    With Diamantidis and Papaloukas, the NBA interest hasn't been as strong, though speculation is with Diamantidis it could pick up this summer, and that could give a stronger indication of his feelings. I can understand not wanting to come to the NBA, make 800K and sit at the end of the bench. But, if someone steps in, offers him 4 million a year (like Toronto), then things could be different. The same thing could be said of Papaloukas, as his NBA door is probably quickly closing due to his age, and if he has another season success with CSKA then he might decide to spend a couple of years in the NBA while he still can ala Sarunas Jasikevicious, and the money he could get this year almost definetely would be higher than what he's been offered in the past (again, most likely minimum 1-year contracts).

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    On Diamantidis.

    He just signed a new contract with his team in Athens in which no buy-out clause is included. When they talked about the nba-related clause his reaction reportedly was: "What NBA? Are you kidding me? I don't care about NBA" or sth to that effect (I was not there).

    So, he does not want to go. Crystal clear. Thank God, I would hate to watch him warm the bench.

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    Diama is just prooving his IQ offcourt as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon_Koncak View Post
    That's funny shit.I cant believe there are sports fans thinking like it.It's like Federer losing to random Japanese player in round 1 of French Open but tournament director stepping in and saying "hey it was a fluke win who wants to watch a random Japanese guy in next round,Federer qualifies"

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