Greece and Turkey

[buzz]

Who cares how they want to name themselves?
I don't feel any real threat from those Slavs and their illusions about history.Let them be,they are harmless

i disagree...first of all nationalism propaganda is the mother of all crimes..violence and hate are the kids of this paranoia(beautiful greek word )
secondly we are talking about a (slavic)historian joke..i would say lies should not be encouraged..

and finally you don't have to be a great power to cause problems....you just need the support of a super power

oh and smth else(geographically speaking) the name macedonia should not be the trademark(lol) of just one nation(especially when this nation dreams conquests building a new fake history)...greeks even bulgarians have rights to it.

[Adon]

so when byzantine empire was established greeks were exterminated off the face of the earth??

No,Greeks (the group of people that defined themselves as such) had been under Roman domination for centuries and nothing changed with the creation of Eastern Roman Empire.
Some historians believe that forced Christianization damped that identity.As an indication,officials of greek origin defined themselves as "Romans".

it is different to say greeks (and of course all the other nations)didn't realize their nationality(at least until 13 century as scholars says)and prefer to look at theirselves as "romioi" than saying greeks came to earth at 1821...

I think the academic majority agrees that the concept of "nation state" (the "ethnicity" as we all understand it currently) has its origin in the 18th and 19th century.
Some of them -Greeks also- believe that there was an interruption at the line that connects ancient Greeks with contemporary Greeks and that interruption happened under the Byzantine domination.Language was the only connective element.

just to mention that all empires(ottoman empire,soviet union ,roman empire etc) are multiethnic patterns...it is the people that lives at the centre of the empire that gives the character to an empire..so according to this, greek imperium(as this empire was named by the westerns for their own reasons)was a greek orthodox empire because the people that lived in constantinople,thessaloniki,old greece,west and north minor asia ,islands etc were greeks with a new faith(orthodox)...nothing more nothing less

Greek and Orthodox together is an historic abomination imho.Can you tell me when and why Thessaloniki became a Greek city? I don't know any records about the population before 1800 AC.

moreover, the majority of well known historians(for example hammond) do recognize that macedonias was a dorian(that means greek) tribe...i agree that thracians were not greeks,(that's why you emphasized only this word)

About Macedonians I'm not sure,having read many contradictory theories. I emphasized Thracians because Konstantinoupoli is -was- in Thrace,that's all.

Was there a suspicion about my motives or my intentions on this last remark? I hope not.

[Adon]

i disagree...first of all nationalism propaganda is the mother of all crimes..violence and hate are the kids of this paranoia(beautiful greek word )
secondly we are talking about a (slavic)historian joke..i would say lies should not be encouraged..

and finally you don't have to be a great power to cause problems....you just need the support of a super power

oh and smth else(geographically speaking) the name macedonia should not be the trademark(lol) of just one nation(especially when this nation dreams conquests building a new fake history)...greeks even bulgarians have rights to it.

All I'm saying is that they have the right to name themselves as they wish.I don't like their pitiful attempts to rewrite history,but we cannot (and should not) force them to do otherwise.It was a lost insignificant battle from the beginning from our side.
Any little new nation would be a little paranoid and delusional.A democracy like ours has less excuses to be like that. At the end,our patriotic fight against a name (and a small,poor,weak new country) will not give any benefits to Greece,on the contrary .Again imho.

[buzz]

well constantinople (byzantium) was not established by thracians(the ancient barbarian tribe)!!greeks established cities all over europe..greeks lived coastal in thrace,thracians lived deep inside thrace
smth else thracians were not greeks but i am talking about ancient period...it is different to speak about roman or byzantine period where many assimilations took part


moreover ancient religion was a dead religion for the majority of the people at least since the first centuries b.c...it was a tradition rather than a religion..the new faith despite the persecutions of the christians for 3 centuries spread like lightning...so it is wrong to speak of a forced christianization at least for the great majority...the conquest of greece by rome and the new faith changed the well known greek identity(greek nation was a fact at ancient ages,for example remember olympic games where only greeks could participate etc )greeks still lived of course in minor asia,islands ,old greece etc but they are now roman citizens and christians....the old word greek meant the pagan(just read the new testament) ..so during the course of the conflict between old world and new ,the greek identity has changed...when the conflict was just a memory and only after the invasions of latins an turks that reduced the empire to the limits of purely greek population, started (mainly by the intelegketsia)to use greek identity as ancient greeks did...there is not a form for the birth of national identity that applies to all people(nations)..


according to eleni arveler(you know he is a famous byzantine historian and the first woman dean of the university of sorbonne)the vast majority of thessaloniki's residents were greeks at least until turks allow sephardi jews to stay there(about 15-16 a.c)

I have no time to respond to everything you write...so i ll be back

[buzz]

All I'm saying is that they have the right to name themselves as they wish.I don't like their pitiful attempts to rewrite history,but we cannot (and should not) force them to do otherwise.It was a lost insignificant battle from the beginning from our side.
Any little new nation would be a little paranoid and delusional.A democracy like ours has less excuses to be like that. At the end,our patriotic fight against a name (and a small,poor,weak new country) will not give any benefits to Greece,on the contrary .Again imho.

http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1_05/09/2010_413953

http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100023_05/09/2010_413891

it is not as innocent as you think

they don't have the right to monopolize the name especially because this is the base of a nationalist propaganda against greece...i don't want to have a neighbour that grows with faked historical lies that fires the nationalist desire for a great macedonia...moreover i won't be the one who will accept this sick situation...
greece is a democracy indeed but it is not a state of fools..
as i said i will be back.i have no time at all

[jorje]

Was there a Greek nation those times,or the Greek nation was created -as a consciousness- much later ,at the years before the revolution? (1821)

Cretans,Macedonians,Thracians were not Greeks-according to ancient greek historians.When did Thrace and Konstantinoupolis become greek territory and why?

(edit some spelling errors)

There was no Istanbull or Constantinoples, there was the ancient Greek city of Byzantion founded by Dorieis.So no question about the origins of this territory.
Makedones,,Cretans, were only some of the Greek people.
Even the name Makedonia means something in Greek(just think the word makednos).
If you are Greek you should know that.
Not to mention the names Alexandros,Philippos which are very easy but composite greek words to understand.
And these city-states were participating in the Olympics.

Thessaloniki never had a Turkish majority.
It used to be Greek and after that Jews, who were invited by Turks in order to out number Greek population.
These Jew mostly came from Spain.If we take into account the forced islamization of Greeks during the Ottoman rule

As for the identity and the concept of nation, it is very clear i think ,that we preserved even after almost 4 centuries of slavery, our language,our culture,our history.
About religion even though i am not a hard-line orthodox(not atheist though) i would say that this was a factor that helped us to preserve our identity during 15-18 century,
During the Byzantine empire it was one of the reasons that destroyed ancient Greek culture and civilization but not the only one.

[jorje]

And for FYROM, about 33% of the population are Albanians.
The rest are mostly Bulgarians and Serbs-Yugoslavs and some Greeks.
In order this small and fictitious state to survive in Balkans, its leaders have to invent a history, a background.So they claim they are Macedonians.
Is this part of Macedonia?
According to Byzantine territory named Macedonia(Thema used to call) it constitutes about 30% of Macedonia.
According to the territory of ancient Macedonia it's much less-not all of the FYROM were part of ancient Macedonia.
In any case geographically i would agree that this is the part of Northern Macedonia.
But the origin of these people now is mostly Slav and their language,culture etc is no related to Macedonians of Alexander and Phillip.
Why in any case they were part of YUGO-SLAV-IA?
If they want to call themselves Slavomacedonians and admit they have no connection to territory claims and claims over Greek history then it's fine.

[Adon]

jorje,buzz I apologize because I brought first the word "Macedonians" in this discussion.Although it's a very interesting subject,perhaps a new thread would be the best place for a discussion.

I can't see

moreover ancient religion was a dead religion for the majority of the people at least since the first centuries b.c...it was a tradition rather than a religion..the new faith despite the persecutions of the christians for 3 centuries spread like lightning...so it is wrong to speak of a forced christianization at least for the great majority...

...If we take into account the forced islamization of Greeks during the Ottoman rule

I think that it's a historical FACT that Roman Empire forced Christianization,when Ottomans were very tolerant toward other religions.If you disagree,I can give you many reliable references.

Most misunderstandings are linguistic.I would like to understand your definition (historically) of the word "Greek" and "nation"
More specifically:
1.The Greek language was the "lingua franca" of all Mediterranean people (and more!).A greek-speaking man was not necessarily a Greek.
2.Since we can't know the genealogy of the population under Roman domination for obvious reasons,esp for a crossing region like Byzantion,there is no traceable "gene identity".I suppose we agree on that.
3.We agree-I am sure-that "culture" is a very important element of national identity.The Byzantine eschatological art is the continuation of the quest of beauty,the core of ancient Greece's art? Hell,no !!!
3a.Exactly the same stands for philosophy.Most of the time under "Byzantine" domination,greek philosophy was considered as a forbidden,anti-religious view of life.Apparently science, reason, scepticism, free thought, etc were not very popular in Eastern Roman Empire.
4.Finally,a practical question:
Can you call someone "Greek" if that person believes that he is a Roman or an American, or a Turk ? Esp if that person considers the characterization "Hellinas-Hellin" as an insult?

[buzz]

I think that it's a historical FACT that Roman Empire forced Christianization,

i have already answer to that nothing to add

when Ottomans were very tolerant toward other religions.

few examples

you do know the meaning of devşirme?don't you?
you do know the case "islamic law-sharia",don't you?

1.The Greek language was the "lingua franca" of all Mediterranean people (and more!).A greek-speaking man was not necessarily a Greek.

it was a similar situation to english language..so obviously it is different to speak English as your native language than tο speak it as a foreign language...
don't forget latin language was the official language of the empire...but that didn' t last because the majority of residents living in the center of the empire spoke greek as a mother tongue

2.Since we can't know the genealogy of the population under Roman domination for obvious reasons,esp for a crossing region like Byzantion,there is no traceable "gene identity".I suppose we agree on that.

we do know that many millions greeks still lived at the same places that their ancient ancestors lived few centuries ago...assimilations happened but this is not something strange (for example look at the current assimilation of the Albanians )

3.We agree-I am sure-that "culture" is a very important element of national identity.The Byzantine eschatological art is the continuation of the quest of beauty,the core of ancient Greece's art? Hell,no !!!

byzantine culture was certainly not a parthenogenesis.hagia sofia was the miracle of medieval greeks...anthemios and isidoros earn a place beside the ancient classic architects (feidias etc)
anyway culture is not a static act..you must not expect to see the same temples both in classic ages and in mycenean period to draw conclusions for people's common national identity...Do not overlook the momentous fact that religion has changed and of course that religion is the base of any civilization...

3a.Exactly) the same stands for philosophy.Most of the time under "Byzantine" domination,greek philosophy was considered as a forbidden,anti-religious view of life.Apparently science, reason, scepticism, free thought, etc were not very popular in Eastern Roman Empire.

This was the dogmatic view of Europe in previous centuries(for specific reasons)..things changed..anyway i have already answered(gave an example) , for further just read sir runciman and Eleni Glykatzi-Arveler's books...

4.Finally,a practical question:
Can you call someone "Greek" if that person believes that he is a Roman or an American, or a Turk ? Esp if that person considers the characterization "Hellinas-Hellin" as an insult?

can you call an animal cat even if it doesn't know what we are saying?..well yes since its characteristics define the animal....quess why historians called this empire byzantine even if the residents never used this term to define themselves.quess why Mycenaean are called greeks
byzantine empire was named as greek imperium by medieval western



ps : ancient greek states...byzantine empire...greece
ancient roman empire... Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia etc ..italy
ottoman empire...turkey
etc etc
the progressive hereditary form above is not accepted by you...am i right?

[jorje]

Some facts about religious freedom in Ottoman era

Patriarchs
Gennadius Scholarius imprisoned by Turks just after the fall of the City.
Cyril Lucaris murdered at 1638 and his body was thrown into the sea.
Parthenius III he was hunged by the order of Sultan (1657)
Serapheim II was exiled
Gregory V was hanged just after the Easter Liturgy
Many many more Patriarchs were imprisoned exiled even at the years of Turkish republic.
Archbishop Kyprianos of Cyprus hanged
Bishop of Kition Meletios
Bishop of Kyrenia Lavrentios
Bishop of Paphos Chrysanthos
The three bishops were hanged

Cosmas of Aetolia executed
Saint Philothei murdered because she helped greek women who were enslaved and abused in harems
Metropolitan Chrysostom of Smyrna was lynched to death by both the Turkish soldiers and the mob, after the encouragement of Nureddin Pasha,
St.Demetrios of Philadelphia murdered
Saint-Martyr Constantine Hagarit was hanged because he converted from Islam to Christianity
Neomartyr Demetrios of Chios was excecuted because he conver to Christianity from Islam


It's an endless list which proves , (murders,executions,forced islamization .....)no tolerance of different religions during Ottomans era.
I think Serbs have their own list etc.

[buzz]

moreover all the big churches converted into mosques.. it was forbidden to ring church bells,public litanies were not allowed...marriage between muslim and christian was punished by death...it was forbidden for a christian to speak loudly in front of a muslim...christians were not allowed to ride a horse..huge christian taxes maintain ottoman army...not to mention devşirme
there were many restrictions on residential ,dress etc
it was allowed to "rent"a christian woman,have children with her and then set her free...don't forget if christians did not accept their enslavement(before a succesfull siege happened) they were condemned to death according to islamic law...
islamic law let trade and arts in the hands of unfaithful because these activities were considered a shame for a muslim...oh i wont speak about church property ,you can have an idea on what was happening if you just look at the current situation of the ecumenical patriarch...arbitrariness was an everyday occurrence

[Adon]

Just summarizing your answers:
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood your opinion)

1.Byzantine empire was more tolerant religiously than Ottoman empire.
2.Byzantine art was the evolution of ancient greek art.
3.And the same stands for philosophy
4.A person's self definition about his nationality is irrelevant to his true nationality.

Before any further discussion,I want to clarify that you agree 100% with these statements.

I'm adding one more - related to the subject imo-question.
From a theological-philosophical perspective,Christianity is more similar with ancient greek "view" (weltanschaung) or Christianity has more propinquity of ideas with Muslims?

[buzz]

Just summarizing your answers:
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood your opinion)

1.Byzantine empire was more tolerant religiously than Ottoman empire.
2.Byzantine art was the evolution of ancient greek art.
3.And the same stands for philosophy
4.A person's self definition about his nationality is irrelevant to his true nationality.

Before any further discussion,I want to clarify that you agree 100% with these statements.

I'm adding one more - related to the subject imo-question.
From a theological-philosophical perspective,Christianity is more similar with ancient greek "view" (weltanschaung) or Christianity has more propinquity of ideas with Muslims?

1.obviously
2,3 the synthesis(not always peaceful) between new faith ,greece tradition and roman rules is what we are calling byzantine culture..not a groundbreaking thought
4 so greeks have nothings to do with byzantines,italians have nothing to do with romans and turks with ottomans....anyway i have already answered ...

[jorje]

Just summarizing your answers:
(Please correct me if I have misunderstood your opinion)

1.Byzantine empire was more tolerant religiously than Ottoman empire.
2.Byzantine art was the evolution of ancient greek art.
3.And the same stands for philosophy
4.A person's self definition about his nationality is irrelevant to his true nationality.

Before any further discussion,I want to clarify that you agree 100% with these statements.

I'm adding one more - related to the subject imo-question.
From a theological-philosophical perspective,Christianity is more similar with ancient greek "view" (weltanschaung) or Christianity has more propinquity of ideas with Muslims?

1.Yes agree on that without this implying that Byzantine empire was tolerant enough.
There was huge church intervention but not atrocities like in Ottoman era.
Its relatively better but not good
2.Byzantine art was only about music and church art-hence no comparison with ancient era.
Disagree on that
3.No way Disagree, even-though there were illuminated people but this was an exception to the rule imo.
4.Yeap

I can claim that i am superman and Nikos Gallis.Am i????

One question for you.
Did i mention anything about Byzantine philosophy or art?
How do you summarize like this?
I said only about history of Istanbul,that its ancient name is Byzantion,a city founded by Dorieis.
About Macedonia i thought we said no to discuss it here anymore.

As for your question Christianity is just a combination of various ancient religions plus some new elements.
The same holds for Islam.
No originality more or less.Maybe Christianity theoretically is teaching tolerance but theory is theory and not practice.
The problem is how people implement religious beliefs and views.
Christians (Catholic)were oppressing people centuries ago and kill Protestants ,Muslims,Invade Constantinople etc.
It seems that Muslims started doing this later.The modern situation is well known.

[Adon]

1.A boy born from immigrants Greeks in USA,is a Greek imho only when he considers himself as a Greek. If that boy believes that he is a US citizen and feels shame about his origin,if he feels insulted when somebody calls him "Greek",then he is not! Even if he speaks Greek fluently.
If we disagree,I've got nothing more to add.I think it's common logic and your examples about the cat,superman and Nikos Galis are not so apposite to the case.

2.About religious tolerance,I'll copy-paste some undeniable historic facts:
"Although Constantine allowed public pagan practices, specific pagan temples were torn down upon his orders, while in other cases temple treasures were confiscated ."
"Constantius, also a Christian, decreed that all pagan temples in the empire be immediately closed. He warned that anyone who dared still offer sacrifices of worship to the once-revered gods and goddesses in these temples were to be put to death. Similarly, any governor to refused to enforce this decree was also to be punished."
"Lay Christians took advantage of these new anti-pagan laws by destroying and plundering the temples
A prominent example of this persecution is the case of the philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria. "

There is a movie ("Hypatia") surprisingly accurate about historic events (you can check it yourselves off course).

"Theodosius prohibited all forms of pagan worship and allowed the temples to be robbed, plundered, and ruthlessly destroyed by monks and other enterprising Christians.In the year 416, under Theodosius II, a law was passed to bar pagans from public employment. All this was done to coerce pagans to convert to Christianity. Theodosius also persecuted Judaism, destroying a number of synagogues."
And so on...

On the other hand
"The Ottoman Empire was, in principle, tolerant towards Christians and Jews..."
"The state's relationship with the Greek Orthodox Church was largely peaceful, and recurrent oppressive measures taken against the Greek church were a deviation from generally established practice." (wikipedia)

Is there an international anti-Byzantine conspiracy of historians,or you two are a little bit biased?

3.I asked your opinion about art and philosophy because they define largely the culture of nation. I'm convinced that if there is a connecting line between ancient Greece and modern Greece,this line was very much blurred and altered in Medieval times.
Byzantine Empire rather mutated than preserved Greek culture with the language exception.I believe that all Greeks feel more proud to be the descendants of Athenians,Corinthians,Spartans,etc than to be the descendants of Byzantine officials.Am I wrong?

4.Christianity and Islam are 2 very similar eschatologic religions,far away from the ancient Greek philosophy. I dare to say that Christianity has been the most hurtful factor against our ancient civilization .Greeks were imprisoned,tortured and killed for their believes,ancient temples torn down.Invaluable objects of art had been destructed under Byzantine domination,many written philosophy,literature,scientific papers are lost forever.
That's not all but a great deal of Byzantine influence upon us.