Greece and Turkey

[Deschain]

Hey! this is meant to be a constructive thread , if you don't have anything constructive to post, then four letters come for you: gtfo

I can't deny that this has come surprisingly.I didn't expect this

Last night before and during the tur-gre bball match. Few things made me happy and proud of my country (which i haven't been for a long while)

While Greece Anthem was being played most of the people in the arena stood-up respectfully instead off booing ,whistling the anthem. Also the Greek spectators' message : we are not enemies we are neighbours'. I hope they would have the same attitude if that match would had been played on greek soil.The match itself was very competitive and friendly.It was all about sports.

on the half time, each country's ministers come together and spoke nicely about each other, i hope they were true words.(not boldly stating that i don't like the current turkish government)

So, Greeks, Turks and the other people , what would you do to (or would you?) improve our relationships further.

About me; I actually love Greece as a country, i feel they have great people.And i think we have MUCH in common , (more than a sea at least) and it would be shame if we let it get wasted.

There are always spoilers on each side. Some people who can't get rid of their dogmas.

So comment please, the future of this relationship is mostly on our hands.

[wyopeq]

Germans in WW II had committed many crimes in Greece but all those are forgotten.Why the destruction of Byzantine Empire is so much more important for contemporary Greeks?

Can territorial claims be an answer?

But yes, I am really very curious about the answer.

[jorje]

Furthermore


4.In 1913 Turks were the majority of Thessaloniki.And Greeks were a minority of 20%

Turks were not the majority.
Almost 50% were Jew , mostly of Shepardic origin, previously brought by Ottomans so as Greeks would not be the majority anymore.Most of them have been expelled from Spain.
Also Thesaloniki used to have the biggest Jewish population for many years in the whole world.This was ended by the Nazis, a well known history.
As for the independence of Greece, at least some parts were self-liberated or never be under Ottoman rule.
It just happens to speak with a Maniot.

[Adon]

No Buzz-no discussion !
I erased my posts-they failed to ignite a conversation.

[wyopeq]

No Buzz-no discussion !
I erased my posts-they failed to ignite a conversation.

Come on! It was a good first post for both sides to start accepting the shit we made against each other.

I want to believe that, you haven't got any PM's from a Greek that is forcing you to delete your post.

In any case, it would be nice if you hadn't delete it. This is United Nations thread, that's why not so many people watches here. Be patient

[Levenspiel]

After the earthquakes on both sides, the atmosphere was so affectionate and mild. It was something uncontrollable, the feelings were sincere. I honestly felt never warmer than that to Greeks. Then one little conflict over a tiny issue, and we are behind the enemy lines again.

Sorry for my suspicion, but I think most of the people who are now saying very nice words to each other are not sincere, everybody is ready to stick back to whatever is "for the nation's best". Back to all stinking slogans again.

It cannot work like that. It's easy to say I like Greeks/Turks, etc. What will you say if you hear a Turkish F16 is shot down by a Greek one? You are gonna suddenly change your feelings? Are you open to manipulation so readily? According to the documents captured in the coup-attempt investigation, this was one of the scenarios prepared by some lunatic army officers to create chaos in the country and to get rid of the government. And many other heinous scenarios, some of which had been already performed unfortunately (their eventual aim still failed fortunately due to the honest strong people in the army again).

I cannot say anything on Greek side, but I'm happy because they got rid of the responsible people for their coup d'etat and punished them, which has never happened in Turkey. On the other hand we got rid of religious fanatics and all their influence in the state by Mustafa Kemal's efforts, but Greeks couldn't (afaik).

So, real good relations btw people is not something easy to achieve. But it has to happen. and i believe it will, one day.

on a good note: the army recently removed Greece and Russia from the threat countries to nation list.

[buzz]

Can territorial claims be an answer?

But yes, I am really very curious about the answer.

as you see greece is a free country...we have many anarchists ,people who hate patriotism and believe it is the source of every bad thing..(they hate some compatriots more than some greek nationalists hate turks) ..we have many communists etc..i hope some day turkey will be a country of the free world...it is a wish please don't misunderstand my words again,nothing to provoke


let's see now the caste study" german conquerors vs turk invaders"...
it is simple...germans came here 70 years ago and left 3 years later..no german lives in greece.(of course thousands greeks died of starvation because of them or killed by them)
turks came here one thousand years ago and they are still here.no greek remained in ionia , constantinople,and others cities that greeks established and lived for thousands years..millions of greeks were islamized by ottomans(not only by force ,for example devşirme ,but mainly because of sharia,the islamic law which treated christians as citizens of third selection)...millions greeks,and armenians of course, were killed by them...byzantine historical records describe the bloody turkish invasion of minor asia and the destruction of many cities, with the most shocking words..and finally we all know how many christians were killed by new turks...and things didn't stop ..istanbul pogrom,persecution of the greeks with the turkish law of 1964 ,turkish invasion of cyprus are few of the things that happened lately...but moreover even now that practically no greek remained in istanbul/constantinople,imvros (2 or 3 thousands the most*) you can see how the goverment treats ecumenical patriarch...(school of halki,expropriation of greek property etc)..so it is not hard to figure out why many greeks don't sympathe turks...(altough every person as i said has his own character and personality so it is not clever to blame every turk!)

ys: on the other hand a greek can see 120 thousands muslims(turks,pomacs,roma)still living in thraca ,having 300 mosques,with no property problems..a greek student can see muslims entering university with no exams(!)...this shows the differencies between greek and turkish state..

ys: personally i do know about the siege(revenge?) of tripolitsa and other crimes that slave or free greeks have done but history shows that these crimes are a drop in the ocean comparing it to the crimes of turkish conquerors

turks are not nomads or conquerors anymore of course ...and of course we don't live in 20's


I believe nowdays many turks are trying to change the situation...i admire nobelist orhan pamuk and his fights ...i believe many turks and greeks can live peacefully together,they share almost the same way of life so why not?...

[Adon]

Come on! It was a good first post for both sides to start accepting the shit we made against each other.

I want to believe that, you haven't got any PM's from a Greek that is forcing you to delete your post.

In any case, it would be nice if you hadn't delete it. This is United Nations thread, that's why not so many people watches here. Be patient

PM 's forcing me to delete my posts? Unconceivable for me! No Greek even advised me to stop. Simply,I understood that there are a lot of people willing to talk about politics,history etc OUT OF TOPIC and not in the proper thread.This thread offers low "publicity" and that's the only explanation I can imagine.

Because democracy is well established in Greece and because the educational level of the average Greek is somewhat better than that of the average Turk *,Greek nationalistic propaganda seems to me a lot worse than the equivalent Turkish.

Friendliness or hostility toward someone you don't know personally,it's just a state of mind. There is no political solution. It's a personal choice.

* that's not the case in here.Neither the average Greek nor the average Turk writes in English using the Internet.Obviously.

[qiangdade]

I am really curious about what is taught in turkish schools about the greeks. Where does the hate of the turks towards greeks derive from?

About the greek side i think it is more or less the following. Turks invaded byzantine greek lands and captured ancient greek cities like Efessos, Constantinople, Smyrni etc, the whole asia minor coast practically, and those historical greek areas are now part of turkey. Then the turks treated greeks (and other christians) in the ottoman empire as second-class citizens, depriving them of basic rights and abducted greek children making them into jannisaries. This treatment led many greeks to be "turkified" (a nation of 3000 years of history has only 11mil population). Then there is the number of wars and attrocities by the turkish side, especially the capturing of the asia minor coast back in 1922 and Cyprus.

Of course all this is probably pretty much one-sided, but this is the general feeling of the greeks.

Now i have a couple of questions.

-What do turkish people feel about the istanbul pogrom?
-What about the invasion of Cyprus?
-How do turks see the policies of the turks in the Ottoman empire towards christians and greeks?
-How do turks feel about the fact that the majority of the lands turkey holds today was once populated by greeks and important cities like Istanbul (the most glorious of greek cities) and Izmir where greek founded?
-What is the stance on being conquerors of foreign lands and oppressors of the local populations that existed in those lands before them (as it is taught in greek schools)?
-In greece there are almost daily reports that turkish jet fighters are entering greek air space. Anything on that in Turkey?
-In greece they say that according to international law greece has the right to extend the nautical borders to 12 miles and holds the exclusive rights to an extended zone in the sea where turkish ships are exploring for oil, gas etc illegally.
-The Imia incident where Turkish commandos took the greek flag down from an islet and put a turkish one in its place.
-And again as i asked in the first sentence what fuels the hate of the turks towards greeks? what is taught in turkish schools?


I am not taking any sides here, i am stating the general greek feeling and my questions derive from that.

[Levenspiel]

buzz, you know what? we have an excessive number of people like you, who think they know the history and all the facts so well that their conclusions are so simple and clear... and that's a problem.

[jorje]

as you see greece is a free country...we have many anarchists ,people who hate patriotism and believe it is the source of every bad thing..(they hate some compatriots more than some greek nationalists hate turks) ..we have many communists etc..i hope some day turkey will be a country of the free world...it is a wish please don't misunderstand my words again,nothing to provoke


let's see now the caste study" german conquerors vs turk invaders"...
it is simple...germans came here 70 years ago and left 3 years later..no german lives in greece.(of course thousands greeks died of starvation because of them or killed by them)
turks came here one thousand years ago and they are still here.no greek remained in ionia , constantinople,and others cities that greeks established and lived for thousands years..millions of greeks were islamized by ottomans(not only by force ,for example devşirme ,but mainly because of sharia,the islamic law which treated christians as citizens of third selection)...millions greeks,and armenians of course, were killed by them...byzantine historical records describe the bloody turkish invasion of minor asia and the destruction of many cities, with the most shocking words..and finally we all know how many christians were killed by new turks...and things didn't stop ..istanbul pogrom,persecution of the greeks with the turkish law of 1964 ,turkish invasion of cyprus are few of the things that happened lately...but moreover even now that practically no greek remained in istanbul/constantinople,imvros (2 or 3 thousands the most*) you can see how the goverment treats ecumenical patriarch...(school of halki,expropriation of greek property etc)..so it is not hard to figure out why many greeks don't sympathe turks...(altough every person as i said has his own character and personality so it is not clever to blame every turk!)

ys: on the other hand a greek can see 120 thousands muslims(turks,pomacs,roma)still living in thraca ,having 300 mosques,with no property problems..a greek student can see muslims entering university with no exams(!)...this shows the differencies between greek and turkish state..

ys: personally i do know about the siege(revenge?) of tripolitsa and other crimes that slave or free greeks have done but history shows that these crimes are a drop in the ocean comparing it to the crimes of turkish conquerors

turks are not nomads or conquerors anymore of course ...and of course we don't live in 20's


I believe nowdays many turks are trying to change the situation...i admire nobelist orhan pamuk and his fights ...i believe many turks and greeks can live peacefully together,they share almost the same way of life so why not?...

We do not ban political parties at least during the last 36 years and here is only a small percentage that votes for religious-nationalist parties(I am not saying that this is good or bad ,but is a fact).
At the same time in Turkey the 'Grey Wolves' Party of Bachtseli and religious party of Erdogan get more than the majority of Turks, while Kurdish parties and leftist parties are under fear of ban all the time.
This is just an addition to what you are saying.

I would also like to add that Imvros and Tenedos were supposed to be self-determined parts of Turkey according to the treaty of Lausane.
Of course greek schools were baned just after the sign of the treaty and from a 98%Greek population in Imvros during 1927 today there is only 2%(200 people from over 8.000,without counting the population growth)
At the same time the muslim population inThrace(Roma,Pomaks,Turks) from 70-80.000today they are 110.000 and there are special laws even to find jobs at public sector,enter university education through quotas.

[buzz]

levenspiel i think you have an excessive number of people who confuse history and propaganda cause they are afraid to face dark pages of their history like armenian and greek genocide,kurdish nation,burn of smyrna etc...
germans faced their own past and there is no problem anymore...

[Levenspiel]

Qiangdade, I think the only real problem between Greece and Turkey is the Cyprus issue. Maybe a little, the Aegean sea. The current things I mean.

If the hatred still continues about 1000 years past, such as the invasion of asia minor (and later balkans etc), it's extremely silly. People should get over it, but I think some powers needs people to hate us still because of that, refreshing the memories or making up stories etc. You know, it's quite funny when i hear other people from Balkan states talk about a certain 1489 (random date), and still hold grudge against Turkish about it. And they expect you to know the event as well. Even in Hungary they have big pictures and statues of heroes who claimed to resist or fight one Turkish leader. It's so fucking trivial that I'm sure nobody in Istanbul even heard of that in that date. But by default everybody hates Turkish today.

So, Turkey is the most convenient enemy for whole Europe. They are invaders, they are ethnically least related, and most importantly, they are muslim. So any country who needs a story to unite its people, do not look far, here is the bloody Turkish story. Always sells.

Ordinary Turkish hates Greeks because he thinks you tried to invade our country 1920s, and failed so it's not a problem, BUT you still do everything in your power to realize that dream one day. So every little movement is suspicious . And millions of stories how Turkish people in Thrace got massacred etc, might be used to fuel the passion if needed... usual stuff...

Through internet, many things have changed imo. People are not so easily fooled any more.

[buzz]

And millions of stories how Turkish people in Thrace got massacred

...i suppose stats can solve this misunderstanding...

Through internet, many things have changed imo. People are not so easily fooled any more.

indeed

[Levenspiel]

levenspiel i think you have an excessive number of people who confuse history and propaganda cause they are afraid to face dark pages of their history like armenian and greek genocide,kurdish nation,burn of smyrna etc...
germans faced their own past and there is no problem anymore...

What makes you think you are free of that?

We have other serious problems and should focus on solving them in time, like Kurdish issue, full implementation of human rights, relaxation of army influence etc. They are all related anyway.