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**Nikoo** · 04-30-2006, 05:12 PM

(recovered, continued from above)

worldbasketball
10-01-2004, 08:35 AM
Matt,

I am surprised you don't mention an equally serious allegation and a character flaw with MJ, namely gambling. Time will show he was a gamblaholic. In this shakey and dangerous path, he had befriended very unsavvy circle and was cited for paying huge amounts for this addiction to people with criminal records some allege. He always said he didn't bet on basketball. So it's ok...But so what. Well, it's not. Gambling is a serious addiction and he was well addicted.

Also his family feuds with consistent rumors that things have gone sour with Juanita. He is constantly away from home mostly doing golf, yet another addiction for sure.

But I have to disagree when you quote statistics. Sure Karl Malone scored more than him, but where's the charisma? Malone was a "thug" according to a thread we had and was called a "dirty player" though I strongly defended him when he was called dirty. But c'mon KM vs MJ? No chance!

Kareem Abdul Jabbar scored more, but he didn't even approach MJ's charisma. He started very early as a rebel and changed his religion and was anti-estbalishment. I am not saying these are necessarily bad things. But he firmly made himself so risky that the media powers simply freaked out and stayed out.

A character that the media persecuted in his best years, in his prime some will argue, was Mohamed Ali formerly Cassius Clay. He was a rebel, he refused to enlist in the Army, he changed his religion and actively supported the Nation of Islam and thus was sided for the best of his time. His sports career was ruined. He didn't want to conform and stay safe... So he had to pay dearly. It was a miracle he had a comeaback later on. But he would never be forgiven until he developed a disease and sympathy changed and he became a hero once again.

MJ on the contrary was always pro-establishment and alongside Magic Johnson and Larry Bird had huge media powers. These were never ever rebel type of players. They were "conformists" and thus... "safe". Now that worked as Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson to some estent became the epitomy of what one would call (and excuse the expression...) "a white man's black". They always wore these un-threatening and "role model" type of black character (that was what was needed) and MJ fit the formula perfectly. Now white folk who attended the games would be able to say to themselves (I also like black people... Why can't all the blacks be like this!). It is justification for their prejudices. These sort of people would in the next second or two bring to you examples of other more "naughty" and risqué blacks that they DON'T like. But this is no racism they say for look, we LOOOOVE Michael Jordan....

You also don't mention this, you almost shy off from the issue, but in sports, looks also count a lot. Media power is so biased towards characters with considerable beauty and attractiveness. They need to churn out constantly what is called "poster boys" or "centerspread girls". That sells newspapers and more importantly popular magazines for the masses as well as poshy celebrity magazines for the more eilite.

You fail to mention that MJ has great looks and attracts huge media attention, a poster boy "par excellence" that Malone or Abdul Jabbar or the great Oscar Schmidt would never have.

Just take a look at this. It just says Michael and you know which Michael it is... You would still know even if nio Michael was mentioned at all.... Just like any successful trademark or landmark really

worldbasketball
10-01-2004, 09:07 AM
I don't know if we need to blame him for this, but media was very clever in their slogan "I Want To Be Like Mike"

MJ here becomes a substitute for our dreams. Now young people would have a purpose in life. Their purpose? Not eduaction, not hard work, but that they want to be like Mike, I mean successful, powerful and dirty rich.

If Mike can do it, it can happen to me too you know
This type of attitude that will mostly lead to disappointment and destruction. At best, it is a waste of time and effort.

This basketball type of dream (Remember the movie Hoop Dreams?) is to say the least an illusion, for every one successuful Mike-Wanna-Be there are thousands upon thousands of crushed I-Wanna-Be-Like-Mike failures and day dreamers...

But can you blame MJ to provide a dream for so many.

Some day, they will wake up to the serious reality!
But until then, dream on.....

mvblair
10-01-2004, 10:59 AM
All of you bring up valid and important points.

Thanks for your insite about Jordan's charisma, WBB. You make some very good points.

Look, I'm not saying Jordan wasn't good. I'm not saying he wasn't great. He was great. He was one of the best. But he was not the best (to Steph...

).

KN, statistically, Jordan was very potent. But he was not the statistically most significant player. We can argue what statistics are most important in the NBA, and we would both be right. But only one player in the history of the NBA and ABA has averaged a triple-double in one year: Oscar Robertson in 1962: 12.5 rebounds, 11.4 assists, and 30.8 points. His career averages were 9.5 assists, 7.5 rebounds, and 25.7 points, not including play-off appearances. (Jordan's career averages were 5.3 assists, 6.2 rebounds, and 30.1 points. And in Robertson's time, they didn't give out rebounds if the ball bounced to you, and they didn't give assists unless the man you passed to shot the ball without moving his feet and within 2 seconds of receiving the ball).

If Jordan hadn't made that shot at the end of the '98 finals, when he fouled Byron Russell, we wouldn't adore him as much. If he hadn't had all the commercials and all that charisma and all those movies, we wouldn't adore him as much. If his team-mates hadn't bailed him out time and time again, we wouldn't adore him as much.

"Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." -- Pat Riley on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Where is Zalgirinis when I need him!? I'm getting attacked here and he's not defending me at all!!!

Matt

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-01-2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by worldbasketball

Now young people would have a purpose in life. Their purpose? Not eduaction, not hard work, but that they want to be like Mike, I mean successful, powerful and dirty rich.

Michael Jordan is an icon of hard-working.

As a child, he played baseball when most of his black friends played basketball. He wasn´t very good, but Michael Jordan never wanted to lose. A teacher in his school said that Michael would get to school at 6AM in the morning from Fall through Winter and through Spring. Every school morning he'd be in the gym, practising.

He was named Most Valuable Player when his Babe Ruth team won the state championships.

As a child he was never an amazing athlete. He attended high school in Wilmington, North Carolina, where he was cut from the basketball team as a sophomore.

Instead of giving up after failing to make the team, Jordan used it to spur himself to greater achievements, practicing hour after hour on the court.

He eventually made the team and led it to the state championship.

MJ spent his college career at North Carolina, playing for an NCAA Championship team as a freshman and hitting the game-winning shot in the title game. He was named College Player of the Year by The Sporting News in both 1983 and 1984 and won the Naismith and Wooden Awards in 1984.

After his first retirement, Michael returned to basketball on March 19, 1995. They said he was too old, too slow and too fat. They said he would never be the Jordan of old.

But Jordan’s tremendous work ethic lead to his greatness.

In the following season. Michael Jordan led the Bulls to an astonishing 72-10 record, the best regular season in the history of the NBA. Jordan led the league in scoring with 30.4 points per game, was named the All-Star MVP, the league MVP and the NBA Finals MVP, as they went on to win their fourth NBA championship (1996).

Michael played hard every day. In the 1997 finals against Utah, Jordan was suffering from nausea and a terrible headache. Sick with stomach flu, Jordan had hardly slept the night before and there was doubt in some minds whether he would play -- but no doubt in his. Fighting off exhaustion and dehydration, Jordan played 44 minutes and scored 38 points, including a clinching three-pointer, as the Bulls erased an early 16-point deficit and won 90-88.

Michael feels pain like everyone else. But he has the focus, the concentration and the will power to play in spite of it.

That´s what the slogan “Be like Mike” is about. Being an athelete with undying will.

Zalgirinis
10-01-2004, 11:55 AM
Oh what a touching post. It nearly made me cry...

If to get real I smiled when reading this post. His mysterious coach said smth? Sure he did, he said what Stern wanted or clearer to tell media wrote what Stern wanted.

He played being sick... Another great story to make a god out of him...

Actually such threads are worthless because brainwashed by media maniacs cant be convinced. So sorry Matt, but I wont defend you anymore, cause its leading to nowhere

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-01-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by mvblair

KN, statistically, Jordan was very potent. But he was not the statistically most significant player. We can argue what statistics are most important in the NBA, and we would both be right. But only one player in the history of the NBA and ABA has averaged a triple-double in one year: Oscar Robertson in 1962: 12.5 rebounds, 11.4 assists, and 30.8 points. His career averages were 9.5 assists, 7.5 rebounds, and 25.7 points, not including play-off appearances. (Jordan's career averages were 5.3 assists, 6.2 rebounds, and 30.1 points.

MV, It is good you admit that Jordan is at least the second best NBA player ever...

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-01-2004, 12:25 PM
Zalgirinis:

You can convince me of the implication of the republican party in the 9/11 attack.

You can say that the images of Armstrong walking on the moon were filmed in Hollywood and I will trust you.

But please: STOP THAT "THEY INVENTED MICHAEL JORDAN" BULLS*** . ( )

By the way, who do you think is the best ever?? I really want to know…

mvblair
10-01-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Zalgirinis
So sorry Matt, but I wont defend you anymore, cause its leading to nowhere

Dang it, Zalg!! The first time we ever agree on anything, and you leave the battle. Thanks!!

KN, your point about Jordan being "the icon of hard-working." Jordan is the ultimate competitor. (Although, I think that the story of his "flu" '97 is exagerrated. I simply don't believe that Jordan's team-mates had to carry him to the locker room, like the media says). Jordan is a competitor to a fault, in many respects. His obsession with the game borders mania.

(But also, if Jordan trully was "the icon of hard-working," why did he leave the game in'93 and '98? That's not a fair question, I have to admit, because he came back because of his obsession).

In my opinion, Jordan was the best player on very good, very well-constructed teams. Just like Shaq was the best player on very good, well-constructed teams. We all know that Shaq wouldn't have so many trophies if Fisher, Fox, Harper, and Horry hadn't made a dozen game winning shots in the play-offs from 2000 to 2002. The same goes for Jordan. He was saved so many times from defeat in the play-offs by Ron Harper (again), John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, Toni Kukoc (who Phil Jackson called "the reason we won so much"), Steve Kerr and Horace Grant. Not only did those playres hit most of the big shots for Jordan, but they were the greatest role-players in the NBA. Add to that list Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Scott Williams, and Robert Parish, and you've got a list of some of the best "role-players" that have ever played in the NBA. All of those players went on to make or had made significant contributions to other good teams.

I actually found this quote a few moments ago, which is very impressive from Jordan: "Maybe now people will stop referring to us as a one-man team, because we won this thing as a team. I played my game, but with the efforts they gave us, we did it as a team." He said that after one of the team's championships. So even Jordan admits, albeit in an arrogant way, that the victory was a team effort.

Jordan needed and depended on those role-players.

Matt

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-01-2004, 01:39 PM
I agree with you.

I didn´t like MJ at first, but I always have been a big fan of Lakers and Bulls role players.

About Luc Longley...... er....mmmm.......

.....

.....

.....

.... Luc Longley among the best role players of the decade!?!?!?! Cmon..... you can´t be serious!

**Nikoo** · 04-30-2006, 05:15 PM

(recovered, continued from above)

Zalgirinis
10-01-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
Zalgirinis:

You can convince me of the implication of the republican party in the 9/11 attack.

You can say that the images of Armstrong walking on the moon were filmed in Hollywood and I will trust you.

But please: STOP THAT "THEY INVENTED MICHAEL JORDAN" BULLS*** . )

By the way, who do you think is the best ever?? I really want to know…

Not invented, it was a good team, but Stern was controlling things to help them. Im not only talking about Matt's mentioned fouls that werent whistled consistently, but also as one of examples in 97/98 playoffs, where Knicks looked really strong and really even could knock Bulls out.

So what happened in 1/2 finals of East conference, Bulls are already in East conference finals, Knicks are leading 3-2 vs Heat. In 6th game P.J.Brown starts the fight, which was massive. Alan Houston, Charly Ward, Larry Johnson, John Starks and Patrick Ewing get ejected from that game and only PJ Brown and some scrub from the Heat. Heat wins 6th game and in 7th all Knicks cant play and Heat is almost full strength, not looking that all bench of their's was in the fight and as I know whoever leaves the bench in such situations gets a 1 game suspension. But not this time, because Knicks could really give a threat for God's victory. So Heat won Game 7 and were easily owned by Bulls 4-0.

Whom I think is the best player ever? I cant say, because I havent seen many players playing. So I cant be at all objective at that. I havent seen not only Chemberlain, Rusell, Robertson, but even Abdull-Jabar, so I cant judge only from media opinions who was the best ever.

From NBA players Magic Johnson was my idol in young days. MJ was a good player, maybe even was the best, but he wasnt/isnt worth that hype he got/gets. Yea yea 6 rings bla bla, but I dont close my eyes to see how he really got it.

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-01-2004, 11:35 PM
I have to admit that you are very imaginative.

But the Miami Heat were better than the NY Knicks, if you ask me.

Jamal Mashburn, Dan Majerle, Voshon Lenard, Tim Hardaway, Alonzo mourning...

About the role-players...

Without Jordan, would they have won 3 NBA championships? NO WAY

Without them, would Jordan have won? SURE

I mean, if Jordan had had four Lombrosian teammates, they would have turned into four lithuanians. Sure.

K-2 Young
10-02-2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
I have to admit that you are very imaginative.

But the Miami Heat were better than the NY Knicks, if you ask me.

Jamal Mashburn, Dan Majerle, Voshon Lenard, Tim Hardaway, Alonzo mourning...

About the role-players...

Without Jordan, would they have won 3 NBA championships? NO WAY

Without them, would Jordan have won? SURE

I mean, if Jordan had had four Lombrosian teammates, they would have turned into four lithuanians. Sure.

I never saw Jordan winning a championship without Pippen

.

My point, I got no point, but he is not an wonder-doing-guy. he is a human, and he needs teammates. Good teammates, not what T-Mac had in Orlando. Kobe-Shaq, Jordan-Pippen, Hakeem-Maxwell( I hope I am right about this on, Magic-Kareem, Pistons and team effort, Bird and d celtics,Wilt and God knows who . Everyone needs teammates. He had Pippen, a great teammate.

Was Jordan the best?? I dont know, I dont care, he can be the best on some things, commercial, scoring, mental, etc. To me the best player in the hystory does not exist. How can you compare the times???

Was he a great player?? Yes he was, he accomplished things that people would kill to accomplish only 1/6 part of them.

Also, the NBA tried to help the Lakers 2 seasons ago, and they still managed to loss to the Spurs. The NBA cant control a lot of things. Jordan was the best of his time. Face it. By the way, I never liked NIKE, and I prefer powerade over Gatorade. I dont eat wheatties, neither read TIME Mag, no, SportsIllustraded, ESPN the mag, barely see Sportscenter, just a lot of music and some games on TNT and ESPN, or ABC or wherever they bradcast the games.

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-02-2004, 07:13 AM
I see your point, Josean. We cannot compare the times.

Would Trinidad have won a fight against Sugar Ray Leonard? We will never know, but... why not?

Would Jordan have won 6 NBA championships during the Lakers Showtime era...?

What I was trying to say in my posts is that MJ fought a lot in order to succeed and finally made a lot of great achievements.

I mean,
you can think that there is a player better than Jordan who deserves the most to be considered as the best ever.

But you CANNOT say that Jordan doesn´t deserve to be considered as the best ever.

And in my humble opinion, he really is.

mvblair
10-02-2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
About the role-players...

Without Jordan, would they have won 3 NBA championships? NO WAY

I'm glad you asked.

Steve Kerr won a championship without Jordan. Ron Harper won two championships without Jordan. So did Horace Grant. So did Dennis Rodman. And Robert Parish won 3 championships without Jordan.

Without them, would Jordan have won? SURE

In 2001 When Jordan played in Washington, he had only one player who could be considered a good role player-Richard Hamilton-and Jordan traded Hamilton away.

So, when Jordan had great role players, Jordan won championships. When Jordan didn't have great role players, he didn't even make the play-offs. Is that a coincidence?

Matt

PS- By the way, I'm really enjoying this discussion. I've wanted to have it for a long time, and I appreciate that everybody is being logical and nobody is name-calling or anything like that.

Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
10-03-2004, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by mvblair
I'm glad you asked. Steve Kerr won a championship without Jordan. Ron Harper won two championships without Jordan. So did Horace Grant. So did Dennis Rodman. And Robert Parish won 3 championships without Jordan.

The San Antonio Spurs could have won the championship without the "key" contribution of Steve Kerr (2.2 points per game and 0.5 assists). If Michael Jackson had played instead of him, nobody would have noticed.

The very Bulls could have won the championship without the key contribution of 43-year-old benchwarmer Robert Parish. If Jennifer Lopez had been sitting on the bench instead of him, everybody would have noticed but few would have protested.

And you forgot to mention MVC (most-valuable-cheerleader) John Salley.

Anyway,
The role-players are interchangeable. Nobody missed Ron Harper in LA when the Lakers won the third championship without him. He did a great job, he was a key contributor in the 2000 and 2001 championships. But the point is that they didn´t really need him.

And you know that the Bulls would have won those championships with Kwame Brown playing instead of Luc Longley...

So, when Jordan had great role players, Jordan won championships. When Jordan didn't have great role players, he didn't even make the play-offs. Is that a coincidence?

When Jordan was 40 years old, he didn´t win championships.

When he was younger he won everything. No matter which lombrosian they put alongside him (Bill Wennington, L.Longley, Will Perdue, Randy Brown, D. Simpkins, J.Caffey, J.Buechler…) They all have an NBA ring.
They were lucky, weren´t they? Ask Karl Malone.

Anyhow, it is useless to speculate on the ifs, IMO.

But the achievements of MJ are indisputable.

mvblair
10-03-2004, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Kenzuke_Nakanomachi
The San Antonio Spurs could have won the championship without the "key" contribution of Steve Kerr (2.2 points per game and 0.5 assists). If Michael Jackson had played instead of him, nobody would have noticed.
I would've noticed. I like Michael Jackson.

But seriously, Kerr came up with a few big shots for San Antonio in 2003. He really did. And he did with the Bulls too.

Anyway, the role-players are interchangeable.
Well, I disagree completely. Those role-players brought Jordan "over the top." Those role-players made so many big shots over the years.

And you know that the Bulls would have won that championships with Kwame Brown playing instead of Luc Longley...

Luc Longley was a bad example. Dejeme en paz.

When Jordan was 40 years old, he didn´t win championships.
But Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell did.

But the achievements of MJ are indisputable.
True. He has 6 championships and numerous individual awards. He was a great basketball player. He was one of the greatest basketball players. But he was not the greatest.

Matt

avduka2
12-13-2004, 10:27 AM
Have to say couple of things...im one of the biggest jordan haters in the world...i just hate his guts but the ---- some of you are talkin is just insane........

MJ is the best ever(sadly), and there is nobody even close to the guy....its not just that he scored its the way he scored.....there is no case against jordan the basketball player only jordan the person......

MJ had refs on his side but he had to earn their respect and he did........When he came to UNC dean smith and bill guthridge said that he had unhuman like athletic abilty but was very raw and he willed himself to be better and better every year....Toni kukoè once said that he never saw a guy work so much on his game as mike did.....when the stakes were high he delivered time and time again against anybody, anytime, anyplace.....

destroyed everybody during his prime......magic, bird, hakeem, david robinson, karl malone, john stockton, barkley, drexler, dražen, daniloviæ, divac,kobe, shaq, penny,ewing, miller,drexler, porter,isiah, dumars..... was never outplayed one on one ever.....

9 scoring titles, the greatest ever regular season ppg 32,0 and playoffs 33,9...SEVEN all defensive first team awards...when he returned to the bulls in 95 their winning percentage in next 3 years was around 87%!!! Bob Ryan said"Jordan has a competitive fire that doesent go away. He will cut your heart out"

and that he did to every player...there was no one better in clutch....no one, he retired... hakeem and clyde won their rings, he retired... robinson got his...Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird had havlicek, jones, smith, baylor,west, worthy, Jabbar, scott, macadoo, wilkes, parish, dj, ainge, walton,mchale....Mike had perdue, king, armstrong, JP, kerr, longley, grant, bobby fuckin hansen, cartwright, simpkins, burell, he had scottie pippen person that refused to check in to the game when phil made last play for toni.... cartwright cryed in locker after that game and called scottie"piece of ----" teammates were holdin him.....he had actor-moron rodman who never respected robinson (called him coward in public number of times).... but funny thing never said anything against mike or backsttabed him....these guys were hittin open jumpers or dunks 80% of time...mike made that happen...he made kerr, paxson, armstrong look like good players when they were average at best...watch 1991 finals... all paxson did was hit open jumpers...it was like shooting practice...kerr scored game winner against utah...BUT HE WAS WIDE OPEN AT A FUCKIN FREE THROW LINE WITH 4 SECS TO GO...thats how much jazz were thinkin about kerr...i repeat no nike, or anything like that made mike a star he made himself a star with his hands no stern, no dick bavetta, no gatorade,

Couple more things...we have idiot kobe now....mike won a title with guys that were far worse then divac, odom, atkins,butler, walton lets see were kobe finshes this season......

lot of fans think that tim duncan is the best nba player right now....do you think that MIKE would ever finish semifinal game against argentina with 8 pts 5 rebs like duncan did?? do you think that mike would ever be outplayed the way tim was in that game??? no way in a 1 000 000 years....

mvblair
03-14-2005, 12:14 PM
Crying Foul (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...=tsn&type=lgns)
by Sean Deveany, Sports Illustrated

...The perception about the Bulls' preferential treatment because of Jordan is based in reality -- even Paxson acknowledged that as he was complaining about Nowitzki's 19-free throw night. In 1998, Jordan pushed Bryon Russell to the floor before making a championship-winning shot against Utah. In 1997, Jordan bumped Mookie Blaylock out of bounds to force an Atlanta turnover and secure a Chicago playoff win. In 1995, Jordan held the arm of the Hornets' Hersey Hawkins -- and admitted it -- to prevent Hawkins from making a winning layup that would have sent the Bulls-Hornets playoff series to a Game 5 in Charlotte.

As Hawkins explained, "It's Michael Jordan, and I'm Hersey Hawkins."

More than any other player, Jordan solidified the theory that star players get calls. But things have changed. Now, Jordan is retired, and referees are being held to a different standard...

**Nikoo** · 04-30-2006, 05:16 PM

(recovered, continued from above)

worldbasketball
03-14-2005, 08:59 PM
What bugs me is my bad memories of an omnipotent and super powerful influential Michael Jordan talking to the referees with immunity, as if he had this air of being "untouchable". He would be very menacing with "don't do this to me" or "how dare you".

Whereas I assure you, if say Dennis Rodman or Charles Barkley had done even one half of one quarter of the gesture Mr. Untouchable had done, they would have been disqualified and sent immediately to the dressing room with no excuses accepted. And they have been treated this way countless times.

Yet the sacrosanct Jordan did such gestures fearlessly without ever doubting he would even be "graced" with a technical foul. After all he is the MJ of basketball you know and what is allowed for MJ is not allowed for anybody else.

Even if these allegations in "Sports Illustrated" are not true or are exaggeration, there is clearly an aelement of truth in them, and frankly MJ surely didn't do much to dispell our consistent doubts about these allegations by the shere arrogance in which he behaved on court.

This seemed unfair to me even then. But then I was never much of a afan of MJ anyway. I thought much more highly about Pippen and even BJ Armstrong than MJ.

Now with further revelations, my initial impression is being solidified with further proof and outright testimonies of players who passed through these experiences.

This is not to belittle the achievements of the Bulls as a team. I have respect for that. But as the quotation reveals, it was not just their basketball skills, but something more sinister.

BTW Matt, I am impressed how you have the whole text quotation in red.

mvblair
03-24-2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by worldbasketball
What bugs me is my bad memories of an omnipotent and super powerful influential Michael Jordan talking to the referees with immunity, as if he had this air of being "untouchable".
Yes, that is exactly what bothers me so much. It's as if Jordan was bigger than the actual game, more important than the game.
I thought much more highly about Pippen and even BJ Armstrong than MJ.
Yes, Pippen, Armstrong (who I shook hands with at the 2004 WBC

), Kukoc, Rodman, and the other so-called "role players" could never get out from MJ's shadow. That's why I like them more.
Now with further revelations, my initial impression is being solidified with further proof and outright testimonies of players who passed through these experiences.
Same here. And as you said earlier, MJ himself is doing nothing to disprove our impressions.

Matt

worldbasketball
03-24-2005, 09:42 PM
You know what. As a basketball fan, I would tolerate anything logical on court even if it is not to my taste or it is not much to my liking.

Some players need to be protected. Say if they really want, opponent teams can put a thug on MJ and the thug (they can do without even if he is thrown out of the game as a result of this) may hurt him badly out of action. It is so easy to hurt other physically during a game.

So great players do need some protection from such callous behaviour..

But MJ went very far with very troublesome behaviour:
-One: Consistent rumours of association with gambling. I don't care if it didn't include basketball, so it is legal. What I do care is that this mught have been a compulsive addictive behaviour not worthy of his fame as a clean-cut wholesome player. But it is known despite his clean image, he would lose huge gambling money.
-Second: As a result of this some say compulsive habit, his inevitable association with the more shady elements of society and with, it turns out, people on the wrong side of the law..

I cannot accept such behaviour from anybody, let alone from a majour figure like MJ.

**mvblair** · 05-01-2006, 07:55 PM

YEAH!!! Thanks, Nikoo!! By the way, I still stand by every comment.

Matt

**Saskibaloia** · 05-01-2006, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Nikoo

.... Luc Longley among the best role players of the decade!?!?!?! Cmon..... you can´t be serious!
Zalgirinis

OH YES he is serious and I AGREE!!!
My fellow countryman is a role model.
When did you see this lumber jack do anything that are not role-model like?
The guy is known to be a family man who donates to charity.

**FanBoy** · 05-01-2006, 08:51 PM

Well I do hear people saying Jordan isnt the best ever...logical its every man with hes own opinion.
True he was a gambler,so?wasnt AI in law issues over a gun?didnt KB go behind hes wife?so what?
Fact is: 6 titles in the 90s,highest PPG carrer avg,Created the new era of basketball players that many try to fallow(KB,Labron even in EL its Parkers role model).
He helped the bulls crush Magics lakers in the 91-92 finals,Larry bird one of the gr8 said hes the best hes seen...etc...
And remmber this,he was out since 93 to 95,came back and a year after the bulls won again the 3 title run AGAIN.
True he wasnt alone.Rodman was amazing(best rebounder ever in my book),and Pipen(the man who created the SF position actully).
But if you can show me one single person who gave hes team in the modern era 2 3pt regins...ill agree he aint the best.
But untill than, Ill say what all say: HES THE BEST EVER.

(note modern era I consider since Dr.J days when he defined the was the game was played, in the mid 70 till our times,and not 60s or 50s boston etc...)

**mvblair** · 03-12-2010, 05:46 PM

I hate to dig up a thread from four years ago, but I wanted to post a few bits of this commentary by Kelly Dwyer.

Chiding Michael Jordan -- March 11, 2010, Yahoo! Sports, by Kelly Dwyer

....And yet, [your criticism of Jerry Krause in the past] hasn't stopped you from making a show of yourself as de facto Bobcat personnel head for the last few years. Showing up at Madison Square Garden with Charles Oakley. Pumping fists right next to the Bobcat bench in North Carolina. Showing up about thrice per year and acting all the part of the deadbeat dad that jumps the turnstile just before the second inning for the first time all season, telling his son to "choke up" after his little league coach just spent six weeks working on the poor kid's swing.

You've never worried about making us uneasy, Michael. You've never cared that we thought your post-retirement behavior churlish, spoiled, embarrassing, pathetic, sad, sad, sad. That never bothered you.

But it's going to have to, if you're going to hang on to the one thing you have left. Your money.

Your dignity? Come on. You're still challenging 12th men to HORSE contests and losing. The internet is littered with stories of your pathetic attempts to prove your 1992-ness, challenging white-collar types for pickup games and stealing girlfriends for sport, raising the roof at two in the morning and stiffing every server in sight. The sight of Michael Jordan in a ridiculous blazer parked over pre-torn jeans exhorting a group of Bobcats you feel like he's seen a dozen times a year (TV and in-person combined) is to be expected now. Along the same lines of Stephon Marbury's latest foibles. You're that bad to us, Michael. And you're the reason I do what I do.

You're going to have to get it together, though, Mike.

You're going to have to grow up, first and foremost. Nothing starts until your childhood ends, and there's nothing more childish than a game of freakin' HORSE. You think Bill Gates is playing jacks in the mailroom? Trying to best the water delivery guy at Minesweeper?

From there, you're going to have to act like a proper owner or a GM. You can't be both. You're either going to have to cede control with some input to Rod Higgins, or you're going to have to take over fully and deal with the idea of someone else acting as principal owner. The job is too complicated, and no person could pull it off in 2010. No man, not even you. Once you've grown up, then I'll believe you can understand that. I'm not holding my breath.

As owner, you're going to have to show the same initiative and hands-on interest that made you such a successful businessman in the 1980s and 1990s. No, you didn't build the Nissans or make the Nikes, but you knew how to run things. Sometime, around the time of your second retirement (and, say, MVP.com), that went away.....

....You don't need to charm the masses. You need to build a successful basketball team.

You need to hire a personnel boss who isn't beholden to you in any way, who will stand up to you....

....It's been just 11 years since your retirement from the Bulls and somehow that's all gone. I've absolutely no faith in you turning this around, MJ. Not while watching you embarrass yourself on the sidelines. Not with so much growing to do. If the Bobcats do get better, it'll be because of the players, Brown and possibly Higgins. I doubt you'll have put in the work.

So add me to the list. With the high school coach, with Isiah, Van Gundy, with Russell, with whomever else. And prove me wrong.....

**Dtown** · 03-12-2010, 07:52 PM

Without addressing the majority of this thread, I'll stick to the main issue.

Given all of this, why do we still love Jordan? Why do we think he is the best ever?

Well first of all you just need to know I'm a Pistons fan to know I don't love Jordan. I think he's a hyper competitive Jackass.

That said, the fact that I don't like him doesn't change the fact that I respect the hell out of him, and I think if he's not the greatest ever, he's certainly in the discussion. I don't judge athletic merit on off the court issues.

In the initial posts I only saw a few qualms that actually have anything to mar his on the court talent.

One can be thrown right out: The refs let him do what he wanted.

They've done the same to just about every superstar since the 60s. That's part of the game, pointing to Jordan like he's the only one is silly.

He was a bad teammate.

Who won. Simple thing about sports, you play the game to win championships, not make friends. People are gauged on results, not how nice they were to their teammates. Being a great guy is what we wish for all of our favorites, but it's not a prerequisite. It was because he was such a overbearing jackass that the Bulls set those single season records. When your captain will smack the shit out of you for taking plays off in February, you're not going to love the guy, but your not going to slack off either.

He ball hogged

This ones severely up for interpretation. Did he possess the ball the most on the team. Yes. But that's not always ball hogging. It comes down to effectiveness really. If you win 70 games with one guy controlling the ball I doubt anyone was complaining. If he won 20 games it might be a different story.

Personally I think the points holding up Russel, Kareem, Bird, or Magic are much better ways of dethroning Micheal as it were. I do agree people hoist GOAT on him without thought these days. That said jackass or not, he's deserves the right to be in the discussion.

**Lewis** · 03-16-2010, 02:42 PM

wait a minute... so

What the

!!!!!!!!!!!

Nikoo you stole my ideas : ("http://forums.interbasket.net/f6/was...promoted-9118/")and made them into your own thread

shame on you, man

!!!!!!!

I want A penny for every time someone post anything in here !!!!!! ('cause that's part of my copyright privileges, you know

)

**rikhardur** · 03-16-2010, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Lewis View Post

What the

!!!!!!!!!!!

Nikoo you stole my ideas : ("http://forums.interbasket.net/f6/was...promoted-9118/")and made them into your own thread

shame on you, man

!!!!!!!

I want A penny for every time someone post anything in here !!!!!! ('cause that's part of my copyright privileges, you know

)

All that is very true if it wasn't for the fact that this thread was started in 2006 when you hadn't even registered

So... you owe something to Nikoo

**Lewis** · 03-17-2010, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by rikhardur View Post

All that is very true if it wasn't for the fact that this thread was started in 2006 when you hadn't even registered

So... you owe something to Nikoo

hahaha

yeah i know I was just kidding

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