FINALS: USA vs Spain

[durden_tyler]

I think it will be close. Most people who talk up the Dream Team and 90s basketball never even been through that era. Jordan was very fallible, but somehow the media painted him to be a god.

I say 4-2 '92 team in a 7 game series. If '12 gets Howard, Wade, and Rose, then I say it's anyone's game.

Close? Hahaha.

[CKR13]

Hey kids!, Are you talking seriously? You remember the Olympics of 92? This team would lose 20 points being generous with that team. Yes, maybe much more athletics, but with 10% quality of those, especially about the knowledge of the game, as team play. Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Chris Mullin, Clyde would have swept them. They never had a close match even at half time, and yesterday everything could happened. I didn't see USA so superior to Spain. We missed a better Calderon and Felipe Reyes maybe shouldn't have played, but with Marc on fouls, what could we do?
*** Have you really enjoyed the kind of game that they have developed? A game based on the outside shot (great %..), no inside game, no team play. Yes, moving the ball quickly to the perimeter, but apart from that? nothing more. Well, Lebron penetrations thanks to a physical advantage. In technical matters, and as I understand basketball, Spain played much better than Americans. Obviously the physical is not comparable, and we can not stand 40 minutes, especially without Marc
*** I am very proud of my national team, I hope that new generations of players are near the level to be ..

So Spain played better than the Americans, why the hell did they lose? Despite our so called deficiencies, Team USA still won against your precious Spain. Imagine that.

It's sad that you side with the Dream Team knowing Spain could not even beat this outside shooting Team USA.

[Raze Lupin]

Hey kids!, Are you talking seriously? You remember the Olympics of 92? This team would lose 20 points being generous with that team. Yes, maybe much more athletics, but with 10% quality of those, especially about the knowledge of the game, as team play. Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Chris Mullin, Clyde would have swept them. They never had a close match even at half time, and yesterday everything could happened. I didn't see USA so superior to Spain. We missed a better Calderon and Felipe Reyes maybe shouldn't have played, but with Marc on fouls, what could we do?
*** Have you really enjoyed the kind of game that they have developed? A game based on the outside shot (great %..), no inside game, no team play. Yes, moving the ball quickly to the perimeter, but apart from that? nothing more. Well, Lebron penetrations thanks to a physical advantage. In technical matters, and as I understand basketball, Spain played much better than Americans. Obviously the physical is not comparable, and we can not stand 40 minutes, especially without Marc
*** I am very proud of my national team, I hope that new generations of players are near the level to be ..

Yes I'm very proud of this US team and enjoyed the way they passed the ball go find the advantage. Yes you should be proud of Spain they played good. Still it was not of the Spanish coach to leave Marc Gasol in the game after 2 fouls. The Spanish coach made deadly mistakes. USA played efficient ball. USA smartly played to their advantages.

[Southpaw]

Hey kids!, Are you talking seriously? You remember the Olympics of 92? This team would lose 20 points being generous with that team. Yes, maybe much more athletics, but with 10% quality of those, especially about the knowledge of the game, as team play. Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Chris Mullin, Clyde would have swept them. They never had a close match even at half time, and yesterday everything could happened. I didn't see USA so superior to Spain. We missed a better Calderon and Felipe Reyes maybe shouldn't have played, but with Marc on fouls, what could we do?
*** Have you really enjoyed the kind of game that they have developed? A game based on the outside shot (great %..), no inside game, no team play. Yes, moving the ball quickly to the perimeter, but apart from that? nothing more. Well, Lebron penetrations thanks to a physical advantage. In technical matters, and as I understand basketball, Spain played much better than Americans. Obviously the physical is not comparable, and we can not stand 40 minutes, especially without Marc
*** I am very proud of my national team, I hope that new generations of players are near the level to be ..

USA did not performed well when they have an inside player like Duncan. Teams played full zone and slowed the tempo and it's been the blueprint until they brought all those hybrids like Durant, Carmelo and Lebron. They went with speed with shooting instead and that made all the difference. If game is played under NBA rules with defensive 3 seconds being called then you will see traditional post up players like Duncan, Howard and Bynum on the team. And if anyone dared to play USA one on one then you will see guys like Paul pick and rolling teams to death. I don't see any team played them one on one. Most them pack a zone and dared them to shoot. They put a conscious effort on Team USA supposedly lack of perimeter game.

[CHBB]

I agree that no team compares to the Dream Team. I was saying that 2012 is in that upper tier with '92, '96, and '08. Just because they're in the same tier doesn't mean they are outright equals or that '12 would beat '92. I'm just saying these were the best teams for us on paper and on the court.

As for the stats thing- I'm a big stats guy for one big reason and that is my huge belief that most people overestimate their ability to capture everything that is going on in a basketball court during a 40 or 48 minute game. I've watched thousands of hours of basketball and still, there are so many moving parts out there that your mind simply can't wrap itself around and process things like how efficient certain players are or how efficient certain lineups are compared to others. You limit yourself to thinking in terms of 'this guy is good at this and bad at that' but basketball is much more complex if you look at the right stats. I watch games too, obviously, and part of my evaluation of how effective I think certain players are is based on my watching them, for sure. But stats open up a whole new world if you understand them and know where to find them.

And Durant did save us in some of the games in '10. Go watch them again if you don't think so.

You don't need stats if you actually know basketball. Basketball isn't that hard to fully understand. Learn the plays, learn the nuances, etc. Stats are used way too often by people who don't actually understand the game because they're not really watching it. Stats are really not all that complex. Just watch the game, and watch it intently. If you don't know something, learn it. Stats won't tell you anything except the end result. They won't tell you why the end result happened, how it happened, etc.

I watched every second of every game. He didn't save them in any of the games. Every player did their roles. His was to be a scorer. That's not saving them. That's performing his role.

Dumbest thing I've read. Larry Bird was injured and washed up in 1992. Durant is twice as good as 92 Bird. Durant is too long for Bird to shoot against anyways.

LeBron is twice the defender Magic was.

Dwight Howard is a better player than Ewing was, sorry. Ewing is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Because he played in New York.

Chris Paul could hold his own against Stockton. Ridiculous to say otherwise.

Btw Steve Nash is nowhere near Stockton on the defensive end

Only an idiot would say PG is weak. 00s point guards much better 90s point guards. Rondo, Rose, Westbrook, Paul, D-Will, Nash, Kidd, Iverson, Marbury and soon enough Irving/Wall. Who was there in the 90s? Stockton, Gary Payton? Um?

Oh for real? You're questioning my basketball knowledge? Bird wasn't as good as Durant? Bird might not have been athletic but he was one of the best shooters ever and he would've frustrated the hell out of Durant defensively and offensively. He was so much smarter of a player than Durant it's not even funny.

And LeBron's half the offensive player Magic was.

Oh you're one of those dudes who thinks it's badass to say sorry when you're not really sorry huh? Well spare me the internet bullshit k? Never said Ewing was great. I said Dwight is the only one who would compare to him because nobody else is on his level right now.

Ridiculous to even try to mention Chris Paul in the same sentence as Stockton.

Never said Nash was as good a defender as Stockton. I was saying he's the only one who's even remotely on Stockton's level.

Rondo is not even remotely a point guard. Wall is not a point guard. Maybe Irving will be though.

Next time you try to call me an idiot, you best show some actual basketball knowledge behind it instead of trying to put Rondo in any kind of category in comparison to some of the best players ever. 5-10 years ago isn't right now, now is it? That era you're referring to, the majority of the players in it were from the early 2000s. Iverson? Marbury? When was the last time EITHER of them played in the league?

I think it will be close. Most people who talk up the Dream Team and 90s basketball never even been through that era. Jordan was very fallible, but somehow the media painted him to be a god.

I say 4-2 '92 team in a 7 game series. If '12 gets Howard, Wade, and Rose, then I say it's anyone's game.

No, it wouldn't be. 92 would destroy them no matter who you put on that team. Jordan was fallible but he was 20 times the player anybody on '12 is, and he was almost 30 at that time.

I watched plenty of basketball in the 90s.

Seriously?!?! Durant scored 33 of the team's 89 points, more than one-third of the team's total offense in that game versus Russia, so that constitutes "single-handedly" saving the US in my book. To say that Durant, who averaged 22.8 points per game and won tournament MVP in 2010 (the next closest was Billups at 9.8 ppg), didn't have any imprint individually on the US's success is complete non-sense. He was often times the only offense the US had in critical situations or scoring droughts (i.e. Brazil in the second half) and to not acknowledge that minimizes his importance to that team. Certainly some of the younger players had hiccups while adjusting to FIBA basketball, but the overriding reason they played poorly had to do with offensive execution, or lack there of. Aside from Durant, both veterans and younger players struggled to score (and defend against headier teams) when the US was stuck in a half-court battle, so you can't just blame all the problems on youthful inexperience. The entire team was systematically inefficient on offense and relied heavily on their defense to generate offense to a larger degree than the 2012 team.

Doesn't mean he saved anything. He scored BECAUSE the other players did everything else.

Never said that, now did I? Don't twist my words. No, he wasn't the only offense at any point. Never said it wasn't because of offensive execution.

Are you for real? Durant played the best defense? No, I don't think so. That would be Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Billups, and some others.

They were inefficient because their offense was whoever wanted to take the shot if they had a big enough ego would. Lamar Odom played solid, as did Billups, Chandler, Rudy Gay, Iguodala, Love, and the young guys like Rose, Eric Gordon, and Westbrook played great at times but were inconsistent.

[Chopin]

CHBB, I agree about most things you wrote, except about Durant not saving the US team in Turkey. If you watch the close games of that NT again you would see that there were moments when other players of that US team could not deliver anything in offense, especially in half court game and set defenses. They just put the ball to Durant and he saved the moment. On a lot of occasions he did everything alone (defense, rebounding, prepared his shooting and also scored...a lot...) and without him (and you can put anybody instead of him in that team), the US surely would not have won in Turkey. And USA would also probably loose the finals in London without him, that is how I saw it... He will be saving the US team in the next championships too I guess, well, I hope he will participate, it is a joy to watch him play FIBA basket, he is 1 level above everybody else, even LeBron, Durant was actually opening space for LeBron against Spain, esepcially in the forth quarter... I never cheered for USA team before, but from the moment I first saw him play international basketball and till now I cheer for the US.

[CHBB]

CHBB, I agree about most things you wrote, except about Durant not saving the US team in Turkey. If you watch the close games of that NT again you would see that there were moments when other players of that US team could not deliver anything in offense, especially in half court game and set defenses. They just put the ball to Durant and he saved the moment. On a lot of occasions he did everything alone (defense, rebounding, prepared his shooting and also scored...a lot...) and without him (and you can put anybody instead of him in that team), the US surely would not have won in Turkey. And USA would also probably loose the finals in London without him, that is how I saw it... He will be saving the US team in the next championships too I guess, well, I hope he will participate, it is a joy to watch him play FIBA basket, he is 1 level above everybody else, even LeBron, Durant was actually opening space for LeBron against Spain, esepcially in the forth quarter... I never cheered for USA team before, but from the moment I first saw him play international basketball and till now I cheer for the US.

I get what you're saying but the fact is that the only reason he was allowed to mostly score and then secondarily grab easy rebounds and make blocks was because guys like Iguodala, Odom, Kevin Love, Billups, Chandler etc played so unselfishly. Durant came and cleaned up on defense but without those guys playing solid, unselfish basketball, Durant wouldn't have scored anywhere near as much as he did. In this Olympics it was the same thing. He's a scorer who can occasionally grab rebounds or blocks when he actually wants to play defense. He was so open because they couldn't afford to double-team him or anybody else and risk anybody else getting open. Only Spain double-teamed him. LeBron is the most important player in the NBA right now. You don't notice everything he does until he's not there to do it. Durant is mostly just a scorer. He's the best FIBA player in the NBA, without a doubt but against NBA caliber athletes, he can't lock people down on defense and he's not going to bully somebody for a board the way LeBron does. It's a lot easier to just go out there and score and play basketball when everybody else is doing the dirty-work. It's much harder to hold a team together the way LeBron does. Iguodala also was a very important part of that team and this '12 team. He was the only lockdown defender besides LeBron and he's an efficient scorer.

Durant is a great offensive player, one of the best in fact because his shot is so good that he can make anything. He's not on the level of LeBron in the other areas of the game though, and those are what matter. If Durant takes LeBron's spot, you'll see his flaws come to light.

[JGX]

12.5 million viewers for the final in the US, 5.4 million in Spain.

[MZT Skopje]

Congrat USA, good jobb by Spain as well. Very good final.

[Federoy]

Doesn't mean he saved anything. He scored BECAUSE the other players did everything else.

Never said that, now did I? Don't twist my words. No, he wasn't the only offense at any point. Never said it wasn't because of offensive execution.

Are you for real? Durant played the best defense? No, I don't think so. That would be Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Billups, and some others.

They were inefficient because their offense was whoever wanted to take the shot if they had a big enough ego would. Lamar Odom played solid, as did Billups, Chandler, Rudy Gay, Iguodala, Love, and the young guys like Rose, Eric Gordon, and Westbrook played great at times but were inconsistent.

I was willing to let it ride, but you took minimizing Durant's role to an even more absurd level. To suggest that the other players willfully abandoned their scoring opportunities to focus on defense (or in your words "everything else") so Durant could be the designated scorer is ridiculous. Durant was by far the most consistent and dominant offensive threat on that team, so of course he commanded the majority of the shots because no one else had his touch on the perimeter or finishing ability at the rim. It's not that his teammates couldn't score. It's that they couldn't score LIKE him, meaning in the variety of ways or mismatches he created.

Your explanation that the team's offensive struggles were attributed to "whoever wanted to take the shot if they had a big enough ego" is only a marginal facet. While poor shot selection certainly contributed to bad offense, the overriding reasons the team struggled had more to do with its personnel and their scoring limitations (except Durant), the lack of preparation time needed to create continuity on offense, and most importantly, USA basketball, since the original Dream Team, has always employed a defense-creates-offense strategy to generate scoring...i.e, they rely heavily on turnovers and rushed shots to create offense in transition, negating the need to focus on extensive offensive sets. When they coundn't force turnovers, their offensive efficiency evaporated in the half-court, which explains why they had difficulty getting past teams that took care of the ball and ran good half-court sets.

And BTW, Durant was tied with Odom for the lead in block shots and second only to Iguodala steals, so his defensive contribution deserves more credit also. Whatever bias you have against KD is your business, but don't play it off like he wasn't the anchor on that team. They flat out would not have won the WC without him.

[Pleasant]

The 2010 WC was Durant's international debut celebration. He wasn't on "elite superstar" level with LeBron and Kobe before then, but he sure as heck was after it, and that's because any observer of Team USA at those games knew that his unstoppable play led Team USA to victory.

It's true that other team members enthusiastically played "role player" roles, and that this facilitated his scoring outbursts, but it's also true that nobody else on the Team USA roster could have filled Durant's role and still led Team USA to gold. Other players deferred because he was simply the best player on the roster. The conversation here sounds like "Michael Jordan only won all those MVPs because other Bulls deferred to him." Yes, that's obviously true, and things would have been different if Pippen had selfishly decided that he needed to "get his" more often, for which he deserves credit. But it was also the most sensible thing for to do because it was the clearest path to victory.

They flat out would not have won the WC without him.

I don't think this is debatable. Durant led the team - a well-coached team with fantastic players putting their egos aside to serve the roles they needed to in order to win - to gold. He wasn't just a scorer. He was a defender, a defensive draw, a facilitator, and a clutch player. There's a reason a lot of international observers think Durant is the best player in the world, better than LBJ, even though most American observers wouldn't say so at this point, and it's based on the 2010 WC.

[NorCal]

The 2010 WC was Durant's international debut celebration. He wasn't on "elite superstar" level with LeBron and Kobe before then, but he sure as heck was after it, and that's because any observer of Team USA at those games knew that his unstoppable play led Team USA to victory.

It's true that other team members enthusiastically played "role player" roles, and that this facilitated his scoring outbursts, but it's also true that nobody else on the Team USA roster could have filled Durant's role and still led Team USA to gold. Other players deferred because he was simply the best player on the roster. The conversation here sounds like "Michael Jordan only won all those MVPs because other Bulls deferred to him." Yes, that's obviously true, and things would have been different if Pippen had selfishly decided that he needed to "get his" more often, for which he deserves credit. But it was also the most sensible thing for to do because it was the clearest path to victory.



I don't think this is debatable. Durant led the team - a well-coached team with fantastic players putting their egos aside to serve the roles they needed to in order to win - to gold. He wasn't just a scorer. He was a defender, a defensive draw, a facilitator, and a clutch player. There's a reason a lot of international observers think Durant is the best player in the world, better than LBJ, even though most American observers wouldn't say so at this point, and it's based on the 2010 WC.

Well said. Jordan's brilliance, just like Durant's at the 2010 WC is distinguishable from most other superstars because he carried a larger load for his team and yet the team was successful. You see teams all the time that have players who 'carry the team' but oftentimes those teams are not consistently winning because the opposition is able to key in on one player more easily than a team filled with weapons. Players usually become less efficient with their offense (lower FG%, higher TO rate, etc.) when they have more responsibilities on the offensive end, but that simply is not true of the historically great players like Durant and Jordan.

[CHBB]

I was willing to let it ride, but you took minimizing Durant's role to an even more absurd level. To suggest that the other players willfully abandoned their scoring opportunities to focus on defense (or in your words "everything else") so Durant could be the designated scorer is ridiculous. Durant was by far the most consistent and dominant offensive threat on that team, so of course he commanded the majority of the shots because no one else had his touch on the perimeter or finishing ability at the rim. It's not that his teammates couldn't score. It's that they couldn't score LIKE him, meaning in the variety of ways or mismatches he created.

Your explanation that the team's offensive struggles were attributed to "whoever wanted to take the shot if they had a big enough ego" is only a marginal facet. While poor shot selection certainly contributed to bad offense, the overriding reasons the team struggled had more to do with its personnel and their scoring limitations (except Durant), the lack of preparation time needed to create continuity on offense, and most importantly, USA basketball, since the original Dream Team, has always employed a defense-creates-offense strategy to generate scoring...i.e, they rely heavily on turnovers and rushed shots to create offense in transition, negating the need to focus on extensive offensive sets. When they coundn't force turnovers, their offensive efficiency evaporated in the half-court, which explains why they had difficulty getting past teams that took care of the ball and ran good half-court sets.

And BTW, Durant was tied with Odom for the lead in block shots and second only to Iguodala steals, so his defensive contribution deserves more credit also. Whatever bias you have against KD is your business, but don't play it off like he wasn't the anchor on that team. They flat out would not have won the WC without him.

The only thing Durant can do better than everybody else is shoot and make easy dunks. His game is 100% dependent on his finger-tip control. He is NOT anywhere near as skilled offensively as the majority of players in the league but they don't have his finger-tip control.

You can call what I say absurd all you like but last time I checked, I'm the one who can point out everything I'm talking about on game tape.

Defensive statistics (or any kind for that matter) don't mean anything when it comes to playing great defense. Iguodala gets steals because he locks down the guy he's guarding and frustrates him into coughing it up. Durant on the other hand goes for the steal or uses his length to get it. They needed to be on transition because they had a lot of young, inconsistent players.

I have a bias against Durant because I disagree with the bullshit people like ESPN ---. Right. It can't be that I could point out EXACTLY what I'm talking about on the actual game tape. Nope. Definitely not.

The 2010 WC was Durant's international debut celebration. He wasn't on "elite superstar" level with LeBron and Kobe before then, but he sure as heck was after it, and that's because any observer of Team USA at those games knew that his unstoppable play led Team USA to victory.

It's true that other team members enthusiastically played "role player" roles, and that this facilitated his scoring outbursts, but it's also true that nobody else on the Team USA roster could have filled Durant's role and still led Team USA to gold. Other players deferred because he was simply the best player on the roster. The conversation here sounds like "Michael Jordan only won all those MVPs because other Bulls deferred to him." Yes, that's obviously true, and things would have been different if Pippen had selfishly decided that he needed to "get his" more often, for which he deserves credit. But it was also the most sensible thing for to do because it was the clearest path to victory.



I don't think this is debatable. Durant led the team - a well-coached team with fantastic players putting their egos aside to serve the roles they needed to in order to win - to gold. He wasn't just a scorer. He was a defender, a defensive draw, a facilitator, and a clutch player. There's a reason a lot of international observers think Durant is the best player in the world, better than LBJ, even though most American observers wouldn't say so at this point, and it's based on the 2010 WC.

No, it didn't. It contributed to the victory because he played his role, that was made possible ENTIRELY by the unselfish play of other players.

That's not even remotely true. Rudy Gay could've been the scorer or Rose. The only thing Durant was the hands-down best at was shooting. Don't EVER compare Durant to Jordan. Durant could NEVER play in Jordan's era, and he is never going to be even half the player Jordan was. He could never play in the hand-check era when teams knocked Jordan down to the floor harder than anything Durant has ever and will ever experience. Durant is a smarter, better-shooting Tracy McGrady and that is all he will ever be.

Better than LeBron offensively doesn't mean even remotely on Jordan's level. Everything is too easy for Durant for him to ever take the next step. He's often the tallest one on the floor, his finger-tip control is literally perfect which means he can put the ball in from any part of the court, and he's never had to be the lock-down defender or glue that holds his team together. He never will be that guy. His flaws don't get exposed anywhere except the NBA because he doesn't play enough anywhere else. He's more offensively skilled than LeBron but will never be as complete a player as LeBron is. Offensively, Kobe is still the best offensive player in the world and will be until somebody else comes along. Guys like Kobe, Jordan, etc get so good because their shot isn't perfect or because they don't have height advantages. They need to be polished, to be skilled, to be able to do amazing things. All Durant has to do is flip the ball in off his fingers from anywhere on the court or use his physical advantages against his defender. He may turn out to be the best shooter in history and a Top 20 player in history but he'll never be on par with LeBron, Jordan, or even Kobe. He'll do everything they did, all the accolades, the championships, but he'll never be the level of player they are. It's just not who he is. He's not going to improve defensively to that level, not going to be as tough as them, not going to be as offensively polished, and isn't going to be that kind of glue guy that they are.

Well said. Jordan's brilliance, just like Durant's at the 2010 WC is distinguishable from most other superstars because he carried a larger load for his team and yet the team was successful. You see teams all the time that have players who 'carry the team' but oftentimes those teams are not consistently winning because the opposition is able to key in on one player more easily than a team filled with weapons. Players usually become less efficient with their offense (lower FG%, higher TO rate, etc.) when they have more responsibilities on the offensive end, but that simply is not true of the historically great players like Durant and Jordan.

Again, don't ever compare the two. Durant didn't carry the team either.

[MLSHK]

If you watch the close games of that NT again you would see that there were moments when other players of that US team could not deliver anything in offense, especially in half court game and set defenses. They just put the ball to Durant and he saved the moment. On a lot of occasions he did everything alone (defense, rebounding, prepared his shooting and also scored...a lot...) and without him (and you can put anybody instead of him in that team), the US surely would not have won in Turkey. And USA would also probably loose the finals in London without him, that is how I saw it... He will be saving the US team in the next championships too I guess, well, I hope he will participate, it is a joy to watch him play FIBA basket, he is 1 level above everybody else, even LeBron, Durant was actually opening space for LeBron against Spain, esepcially in the forth quarter... I never cheered for USA team before, but from the moment I first saw him play international basketball and till now I cheer for the US.