Steroids, testing etc.

[GuTO]

For sure. If Brazil liked basketball like the U.S., they could be possibly just as good as the U.S. with equal athletes.

and you not have idea how much tall people we have here, and we are loosing this people to the boring volleyball, our SG, SF players are on volleyball. Thats very sad.

[CHBB]

You continue to distort what I've said.Not the best tactic because scripta manent.
I said that I've seen no tactic or adaptation in the previous games and not that "Americans can't use tactics". If you speak English, you will know that there is a difference.
Btw do you know the "straw man argument" ? You are using it in every post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Glad somebody else sees it. It's annoying.

Irving is below average size for an nba point guard. Steph curry is the smallest shooting guard in the entire tournament. Neither are particularly good leapers or extremely fast, either.

James harden has been playing forward this entire tournament, and he's 6'5" and also not really that athletic.

According to what exactly? Despite what Draft Express and other "experts" will tell you, point guards don't need to all be 6'4. 6'4 is a normal height for a shooting guard. Even 6'3 is. Small forwards can be 6'5 if they're long enough to defend. Curry isn't fast or a good leaper? Irving isn't fast or a good leaper? Jesus you're ridiculous. You make it out like they've got Byron Leftwich slowness and Aaron Brooks' short stature.

First of all, I always hated racism and I think it's not a topic for American guys to bring here as ugly racism is still very much prevalent in US with all the things like handling of Ferguson riots, shooting of Trayvon Martin and miriads of other, less popularized racist incidents. I know what I'm talking about. My cousin works as a lawyer in US and she espoused unequivocally racist views, previously very atypical to her, after living in US for a couple of years (and she is an Obama-voting upper middle class 'liberal' herself).

It's not white vs. black (no one hates on African teams most of which consist only of black-skinned players), it's about how much steroids/anabolics have to do with athletic dominance which is crucial to American success in international basketball.

I think that even with all the things like supreme athletic training, good nutrition specialists and a really 'superior physical training culture' (RazeLupin is right about that), illegal substances help a lot to have such a massive amount of athletic freaks among NBAers. Just look at almost any European national team - physically they're looking like 16 y.o. kids put against pros.

But it's not only muscular mass obtained by the use of doping which makes this American team so invincible. They have just highly superior individual skills - their guards are excellent shooters, their dribbling skills are also top-notch and almost any player of this team is speedy as hell for his size (and we know that steroid-packed machines loose their speed and dexterity first once they build up their muscles). Domination in all of these individual skills is more than enough to guarantee blow-out wins against almost any given opponent but it's very sad that a team which is composed of so individually talented athletes plays such a primitive, plain and ultimately stupid basketball. I'm just watching finals and it's really painful. Ball movement in offense is almost non-existent. Yes, they get away with it and it's hard to blame a winner but it's still a shame that WC champion is a nauseatingly stupid team composed out of such a low bball-IQ players.


No, I think they won't. They just can't. They never played more sophisticated offense (and defense too), they weren't trained in it and in all their high school/college/professional career they never were required to do it. Their individual talent (and American sportive mentality) is some sort of a curse for them as it is more than enough to make them effective without ever trying to up their smartness. Why should Harden need to learn how to move in a complicated offense with multiple successive screens, cuts and passes if he can just successfully slash to the basket and due to his physical power, excellent body control and shooting touch finish it either with a jump-shot or an easy lay-up? Why should Irving need to learn how to be a genuine floor general if he can just beat his opponent on the dribble with his moves and shoot the lights out after it? How many times in this final game did he shoot threes in opening seconds of possession without ever allowing his partners to touch a ball in offense?

And it's not that they play in such an anti-intellectual and primitive manner because they can beat their opponents even without 'swinging the ball around the perimeter searching for the open shot for the first 20 seconds of the shot clock' and hence they don't want to sophisticate things when unneeded as they are so well-versed in Occam's razor. They can't significantly sophisticate things without struggling really hard because they just don't know how to adapt to this more exquisite game.

Wanna some implicit proof? Ok When, for example, Khimki plays with some outsider team whose players can't measure up to ours in terms of pure individual talent, then Khimki plays even in a more sophisticated, team-oriented and collective-minded manner. Facing CSKA we have less elaborate ball movement than when we face Honka or Astana. We don't thrash clearly inferior opponents due to individual heroics of our stars (even if their individual talent is more than enough to lock an easy win), we thrash them by being smarter and having more elaborate offensive combinations which they just can't cope with.

Individual talent of this US squad is enough to continue their streak without losses in international competitions (this is especially obvious if we talk about athleticism) but at the same time only Egypt played more primitive offense in this tournament. Sad but true

P.S. Seeing smart European national teams playing against Team US composed of NBA stars is like watching a boxing bout between Muhammad Ali and gorilla. Even a man with one of the most intelligent and smart boxing manners ever can't beat something so powerful and physically dominant. An, yes, gorilla doesn't need an intricate tactics to beat even the best human boxers. Sadly, US NT is such a 'gorilla of international basketball'. A stupid brainless beast which nevertheless just crushes its opponents.

Believe it or not, liberal suburbanites are some of the most racist people in our country. The "meathead" urbanites they so despise are much more tolerant and accepting due to actually living with other groups rather than growing up in isolation from them.

As for the rest.... Exactly. Thank you. This post needs to be framed.

The fact is that USA players can play half court. They can play pressure defense and dig down and do everything European players can do. Other than Derrick Rose and maybe Steph Curry though, none of these Team USA players can do that. They've never been forced to. They've been the stars of their high school, AAU, and college teams, and they've played against inferior, not very athletic, and not very well coached/not very fundamentally sound teams up until they get to college. College used to be where players had to prove themselves and didn't get a pass based on their high school ranking but the "one and done" rule changed that forever and now they don't get challenged until they get to the NBA. The problem there is that at the NBA level, nothing is expected of them let alone winning. This is especially becoming a problem now because so many of our players are either growing up in the suburbs where they play "star" basketball against soft, inferior competition rather than growing up playing pick up ball or playing in urban leagues that are much tougher where if you don't bring it every single game you'll get embarrassed. Then you add in the AAU teams and invitational tournaments and all of that and these players never really have to be tested in a real way against leagues full of strong, tough teams who take every game seriously. What you're left with is a lot of players who try to play like Iverson, etc without having their ability and the skill they developed playing streetball against grown men growing up.

The nutrition point is interesting because I remember reading a book on the Phoenix Suns where is was clear that the European players on the team had much better dietary habits than the Americans.

The other noticeable thing is how much NBA player physiques seem to have changed even from the 90s. You often hear about guys putting on "20 lbs" during the offseason but how is that even possible when they are supposedly simultaneously doing very intense cardio (putting shots up, dribble routines, whatever) daily to improve their game?

You can put on 20 lbs easily while doing all of that if you have a protein diet and possibly a supplement (legal, not the banned crap). Remember that when you're lean and have very little body fat, any weight you put on will most likely be muscle.

[freestyler34]

Does steroids make you shoot better threes ? USA killed the Serbs with shooting, Everytime the Serbians lose its either the refs or something illegal like steroids pfff, just accept the lose like a man for once man, its 37 points difference, seriously ...

[pbb]

I keep seeing many serbs posting this topic on social media... why just now?

yeah I think the NBA's Most Valuable Player totally takes steroids. lol

in the US they make you hit the gym & do weights etc at a very young age, also the same NBA athletes play the most popular sport which is american football when they were younger, which requires bulking up muscles. i know so many 10-12 year olds here who are already big & buff/muscular because they play am. football, theres no way they're taking steroids I know them & these same kids also play basketball.

[Unimane]

Good lord, what a bunch of fools in this thread. Why, you ask, do the Americans have so many "gorillas" of towering physical strength and ability? Well, my guess is that this is a country of 320 million people with a basketball goal on nearly every corner will ensure that those who aren't supremely gifted won't be able to sniff the professional leagues, much less the very select national team. America is littered with amazingly athletic guys who couldn't make it to the big time and bright lights.

Otherwise, the "sophisticated" basketball of the European teams is just mental masturbation and self congratulation. It's this idea that there is a right way to play, while being completely oblivious to the fact that the American strategy works much better than the European strategy because of the talent differential. More talented players want to play faster. Why inhibit the greater skill level of the USA by having them run overly structured sets and play some kind of manipulated, controlled style? In most any sport, inferior talent must rely upon slowing the game down and making it more methodical in order to have success. Basketball is no different and "playing purer basketball" is simply the refuge for losers.

[CHBB]

Good lord, what a bunch of fools in this thread. Why, you ask, do the Americans have so many "gorillas" of towering physical strength and ability? Well, my guess is that this is a country of 320 million people with a basketball goal on nearly every corner will ensure that those who aren't supremely gifted won't be able to sniff the professional leagues, much less the very select national team. America is littered with amazingly athletic guys who couldn't make it to the big time and bright lights.

Otherwise, the "sophisticated" basketball of the European teams is just mental masturbation and self congratulation. It's this idea that there is a right way to play, while being completely oblivious to the fact that the American strategy works much better than the European strategy because of the talent differential. More talented players want to play faster. Why inhibit the greater skill level of the USA by having them run overly structured sets and play some kind of manipulated, controlled style? In most any sport, inferior talent must rely upon slowing the game down and making it more methodical in order to have success. Basketball is no different and "playing purer basketball" is simply the refuge for losers.

Spoken like somebody who has never actually played basketball.

You want to talk about losers? How many of our players are actually tested before they get to college? Really think about your answer to that question rather than just dismissing it because it disagrees with whoever's opinions you regurgitate. Our best players used to come from basketball hotbeds like New York, Philly, Chicago, Detroit, etc where there's real pressure from a young age and they're tested their whole lives, especially in college. Now our best players come from soft suburbs and prep schools where the only pressure is their high school ranking or draft stock. Do you think if Jamal Mashburn was focused on his high school ranking or tried to play "star" basketball while playing in the New York Public League he wouldn't have had his ass chewed out and benched? What about when he was at Kentucky? Or Isiah Thomas in Chicago's high school league and then at Indiana under Coach Knight? Or Jordan under Dean Smith? High schools weren't sponsored by companies back then. There were no multitude of camps, and even the highest ranked high school player was just another player to his college coach. The "one and done" rule and all of the high school specific sites and camps and everything else changed that forever. Before 2010, I had never seen players disrespect their college coach the way John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, etc did to Calipari, especially not without being benched the next game. Now college and even high school players think they're pros and speak as if they are rather than accepting their position on the team, because in high school they play in places where basketball doesn't really matter/isn't competitive or only matters for high school ranking or producing "prospects".

That's a refuge for losers if I ever saw one.

[Unimane]

Spoken like somebody who has never actually played basketball.

You want to talk about losers? How many of our players are actually tested before they get to college? Really think about your answer to that question rather than just dismissing it because it disagrees with whoever's opinions you regurgitate. Our best players used to come from basketball hotbeds like New York, Philly, Chicago, Detroit, etc where there's real pressure from a young age and they're tested their whole lives, especially in college. Now our best players come from soft suburbs and prep schools where the only pressure is their high school ranking or draft stock. Do you think if Jamal Mashburn was focused on his high school ranking or tried to play "star" basketball while playing in the New York Public League he wouldn't have had his ass chewed out and benched? What about when he was at Kentucky? Or Isiah Thomas in Chicago's high school league and then at Indiana under Coach Knight? Or Jordan under Dean Smith? High schools weren't sponsored by companies back then. There were no multitude of camps, and even the highest ranked high school player was just another player to his college coach. The "one and done" rule and all of the high school specific sites and camps and everything else changed that forever. Before 2010, I had never seen players disrespect their college coach the way John Wall, Demarcus Cousins, etc did to Calipari, especially not without being benched the next game. Now college and even high school players think they're pros and speak as if they are rather than accepting their position on the team, because in high school they play in places where basketball doesn't really matter/isn't competitive or only matters for high school ranking or producing "prospects".

That's a refuge for losers if I ever saw one.

I've been playing my whole life and you are kidding me with the idea that most of these kids come from the suburbs. They are inner city kids, like always, and play at prep schools because they have shown the ability to play at a high level. They go to Oak Hill and these prep schools in the suburbs. You talk about Isaiah Thomas. Do you know where he went to high school? Kevin Garnett went to a prep school in Chicago, but do you know where he is from? If you think those prep school kids aren't, mostly, coming from the same places they always have been, then you have no idea as to what you're talking about.

As far as kids getting tested before high school, where do they ever do that? Besides, have you played a smidgen of ball in this country, then you would know that the playgrounds are littered with guys who have amazing leaping ability and quickness. Hell, I played ball with a ton of them. Accusing the Americans of using drugs to cheat is simply sour grapes when it's clear the reason we are so successful is the fact that we have a ton of kids playing basketball from the time they can walk.

Your whole post is a diatribe of silliness.

[CHBB]

I've been playing my whole life and you are kidding me with the idea that most of these kids come from the suburbs. They are inner city kids, like always, and play at prep schools because they have shown the ability to play at a high level. They go to Oak Hill and these prep schools in the suburbs. You talk about Isaiah Thomas. Do you know where he went to high school? Kevin Garnett went to a prep school in Chicago, but do you know where he is from? If you think those prep school kids aren't, mostly, coming from the same places they always have been, then you have no idea as to what you're talking about.

As far as kids getting tested before high school, where do they ever do that? Besides, have you played a smidgen of ball in this country, then you would know that the playgrounds are littered with guys who have amazing leaping ability and quickness. Hell, I played ball with a ton of them. Accusing the Americans of using drugs to cheat is simply sour grapes when it's clear the reason we are so successful is the fact that we have a ton of kids playing basketball from the time they can walk.

Your whole post is a diatribe of silliness.

No, they aren't. Not by and large anymore. Look at the places the majority of our "top" prospects and draft picks come from sometime. They play at prep schools because unlike in past years where what mattered to them was winning and being in the tradition of where they come from, they only care about their draft stock and high school rankings. I don't fault the ones who leave because of violence or danger, because that's a different story. That's the few who come from the inner city, that is. Sorry but unlike you I do. Kevin Garnett went where he went because he got expelled from his old school. And Farragut is a public school, not some shoe sponsored prep school. Isiah Thomas you got me on that one. I forgot he went to a college prep school. What I said about him at Indiana was true though and you know that.

Where do they ever do that? In the basketball hotbeds our best players used to come from, that's where. Drugs? I'm referring to being tested as in challenged, genius.


Sorry but no it isn't.

[Unimane]

Top prospects ending up at basketball factories is nothing new. It's been happening ever since the days of Oak Hill and St. Patrick's. To think these guys aren't learning their games in the inner city before moving on to compete at the highest levels in high schools at these academies is not true.

[CHBB]

Top prospects ending up at basketball factories is nothing new. It's been happening ever since the days of Oak Hill and St. Patrick's. To think these guys aren't learning their games in the inner city before moving on to compete at the highest levels in high schools at these academies is not true.

Days that started relatively recently. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that. For decades before that, the best players came out of inner city and other urban high schools with few exceptions. Oak Hill and especially Findlay Prep became major schools with the rise of shoe company sponsored high school tournaments. St. Patrick's was an urban, Catholic school, not a prep school. Same with St. Anthony's and St. Joseph's. It's not the same as a prep school. St. Patrick's is more like Chester High or Simeon, schools that are not sponsored by anybody and are just naturally basketball powerhouses. It's not the same as schools that come out of nowhere, play in joke ass local leagues, and import all of their best players from far away.

Except it is because very few of these kids are FROM the inner city. Look at their damn bios! They're from the suburbs, whether you disagree or not. Maybe some of them are born in the city but they don't grow up there.

[Unimane]

Days that started relatively recently. You seem to be conveniently forgetting that. For decades before that, the best players came out of inner city and other urban high schools with few exceptions. Oak Hill and especially Findlay Prep became major schools with the rise of shoe company sponsored high school tournaments. St. Patrick's was an urban, Catholic school, not a prep school. Same with St. Anthony's and St. Joseph's. It's not the same as a prep school. St. Patrick's is more like Chester High or Simeon, schools that are not sponsored by anybody and are just naturally basketball powerhouses. It's not the same as schools that come out of nowhere, play in joke ass local leagues, and import all of their best players from far away.

Except it is because very few of these kids are FROM the inner city. Look at their damn bios! They're from the suburbs, whether you disagree or not. Maybe some of them are born in the city but they don't grow up there.

Just on this Team USA, Davis, Drummond, Rose, Faried, Gay, DeRozan and Cousins are from the inner city.

[CHBB]

Just on this Team USA, Davis, Drummond, Rose, Faried, Gay, DeRozan and Cousins are from the inner city.

Yes, and only Rose, Gay, and DeRozan aren't big men. They're also none of them the major players on the team (Gay, DeRozan and Rose that is). Gay and Rose are both 25+. Drummond is from Mount Vernon, also, which isn't quite the inner city though I know why you included him as Mt. Vernon/Yonkers are an extension of the Bronx to an extent.

The players dominating the ball are not from the inner city. The vast majority of non-big men prospects are not from the inner city. Guys like Sykes who are 6'6 and complete players get overlooked for Gary Harris who are shorter and only know how to play "star" basketball. They get overlooked for players from places with more exposure and higher high school rankings despite being better players and despite showing up in the NCAA Tournament as well. Back then that would get a player drafted. Not these days. Instead a player could play like absolute crap in college but if he had a high high school ranking then it doesn't matter anymore and no matter how good a player plays if he didn't have a high high school ranking then he won't get drafted. How many players have gotten drafted from places like UCLA and flopped in the NBA and how many of them came from some joke ass California high school? These players getting drafted over guys who are better and put in effort is why we're starting to see the type of play we're seeing not just internationally but in the NBA. Faried, for example, only got drafted because he busted his ass and got the most rebounds in NCAA history. Davis was another guy who was nobody until his senior year of high school. Rose was another guy where it was the same deal as he didn't fully make a name for himself until he went out onto the national scene and destroyed OJ Mayo at ABCD camp. Go over the past 5-7 drafts and see all of the busts who were only drafted due to being players with high high school rankings. See the way they increased especially over the past 5 drafts and look at the prospects for the next two drafts. Look at where the majority of them are from, too.

Then you'll see what I'm talking about.