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Group C, Day 4, Greece Vs Turkey

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  • Well this was just hilarious. I was so much waiting for this to happen. Crappy Greece got away with it in the first two games, but thank you Turkey so much for teaching the greeks a lesson.

    I quote myself from May:

    As for you guys insisting on Zisis...well, he hasn't played decent bball since benetton, he was pure and utter crap in the last EC, he's had a really terrible season with siena and honestly i don't see any reason at all to include such a player in the NT when there is vasiliadis with his marvelous season in the ACB and youngsters like calathes or pappas.
    In any case if Zisis and/or Vasilopoulos are in the final roster, i will definitely root for another team (Germany)
    again: zisis, vasilopoulos suck interstellar time. of course none of my picks is based on stats. those two are just mediocre at best players. open your eyes and don't be fixed to the standards media provides you.
    Picking Zissis over Vassiliadis in this roster was just the biggest mistake a coach can make. And no i will not just let it go. I don't know if Kazlauskas is a puppet or not, but this choice was just catastrophic. And it is proven by Greece's opponents playing over 100' of 120' zone defense so far.

    Now say Kazlauskas was indeed forced to take Zissis. He must have expected to face some zone at some point. How was he planning to face it? by shooting three's with inconsistent players and by putting Sofo in the paint? Well the first proved irregular and sofo is too foul prone and sucks in freethrows. All the opponents have to do is put a couple of disponsible bigs on him and it is only a matter of time before he tires/fouls out while missing most of his freethrows. Did you watch any other plan to break a zone? No. Thus picking Zissis was a mistake.

    Many may argue that Zissis was great in the first game and if it wasn't for him Greece would have lost. BULL-SHIT! If Greece has Vassiliadis instead of Zissis, opponents won't play zone as much and Greece wins by 30.

    Many say that Spanoulis is the leader of this team. BULL-SHIT! Just because he hogged the ball when the Riquenos had to foul so he took all the fouls, in a game that Greece should have won by 20 with Vassiliadis instead of Zissis, that does not make him a leader.

    So what did the leader Spanoulis do yesterday in the most important game for Greece? in 29' he had 5 points with 1/1 2p, 1/5 3p, 0/2 ft, 1 reb, 3 ass, 1 pf, 2 to, 2 st...amazing!
    And the absolutely necessary Zissis? in 19' he had 3 points 1/5 3p, 3 reb, 3 ass, 4 pf, 1 st...great!

    Meanwhile Greece was playing nice bball with Calathes and Diamantidis in, but they were 33-34 behind and Tanjevic got a timeout, for some reason Kazlauskas pulled Calathes out and put Spanoulis in and shortly after Zissis too. Result? 33-41. And Calathes didn't enter the game again until midway in the 4th quarter. Result when he came in? Greece cuts the margin from -17 to -8. Yet it is Zissis that enjoys the playing time and trust...

    And so Kazlauskas made the mistake of picking Zissis instead of Vassiliadis, he didn't prepare his team for zone defenses and made Spanoulis the leader of this team. As a result, he struggled against way inferior teams like China and Puerto Rico and lost pants-down to Turkey. But the most amazing thing is that team Greece, a team that was always defense-oriented, cashed in 81 points by China, 80 by Puerto Rico and 76 by Turkey!!!! In other words puppet or not Kazlauskas managed to dismantle this team's biggest weapon while doing nothing in other areas. Hilarious.

    And as I said this tournament should have been a tournament of rebuilding for the greek team. give time to youngsters so they will be ready when it matters. You cannot rebuild during a Eurobasket since there are WC and OG qualifications at stake. So what better time than this year? But no, instead the federation wanted to go for medals and now they just failed at both. Congrats...

    Also congrats to Turkey (not ironic ones though). Tanjevic has made a solid and well-thought team. They may not face very tough competition till the final game (not taking away anything from them), and there with the crowd boosting them, they may even go all the way. I'll be rooting for Turkey for the title after Germany is eliminated.

    Goodbye and goodnight sucking Greece
    Last edited by qiangdade; 09-01-2010, 09:43 AM.
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    • In order to cheer up, I believe the following should change in the team:
      1) Let Diamantidis be the play maker! For god's sake! He's a game organiser and Spanoulis is a scorer! Why does Kazlauskas think the opposite???? So far, both have done their best performances when playing at those positions! It's not rocket science. Just a simple fact...
      2) Involve more players in the rotation! Why TF wasn't Printezis (who btw did excellent against Ilyasova last year) not used yesterday?? Perperoglou/Kaimakoglou at SF can help a lot and have been tested as such in ALL friendly matches. Why not at the official?
      3) Get more variety in offensive plays (a bit too late for that now...)
      4) Play some defence! It seems that only when Calathes that we are able to pull off some pressure. The rest are just watching.

      I could go on with this list. But I believe #1 is by far the most paramount! Spanoulis' scoring charisma is wasted by organising the game and Diamantidis intuition and leadership is thrown away by not giving him the ball at the very beginning of the offense.

      P.S. yes, Zisis is at best a back-up solution. Not a starter!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by qiangdade View Post
        Well this was just hilarious. I was so much waiting for this to happen. Crappy Greece got away with it in the first two games, but thank you Turkey so much for teaching the greeks a lesson.

        I quote myself from May:







        Picking Zissis over Vassiliadis in this roster was just the biggest mistake a coach can make. And no i will not just let it go. I don't know if Kazlauskas is a puppet or not, but this choice was just catastrophic. And it is proven by Greece's opponents playing over 100' of 120' zone defense so far.

        Now say Kazlauskas was indeed forced to take Zissis. He must have expected to face some zone at some point. How was he planning to face it? by shooting three's with inconsistent players and by putting Sofo in the paint? Well the first proved irregular and sofo is too foul prone and sucks in freethrows. All the opponents have to do is put a couple of disponsible bigs on him and it is only a matter of time before he tires/fouls out while missing most of his freethrows. Did you watch any other plan to break a zone? No. Thus picking Zissis was a mistake.

        Many may argue that Zissis was great in the first game and if it wasn't for him Greece would have lost. BULL-SHIT! If Greece has Vassiliadis instead of Zissis, opponents won't play zone as much and Greece wins by 30.

        Many say that Spanoulis is the leader of this team. BULL-SHIT! Just because he hogged the ball when the Riquenos had to foul so he took all the fouls, in a game that Greece should have won by 20 with Vassiliadis instead of Zissis, that does not make him a leader.

        So what did the leader Spanoulis do yesterday in the most important game for Greece? in 29' he had 5 points with 1/1 2p, 1/5 3p, 0/2 ft, 1 reb, 3 ass, 1 pf, 2 to, 2 st...amazing!
        And the absolutely necessary Zissis? in 19' he had 3 points 1/5 3p, 3 reb, 3 ass, 4 pf, 1 st...great!

        Meanwhile Greece was playing nice bball with Calathes and Diamantidis in, but they were 33-34 behind and Tanjevic got a timeout, for some reason Kazlauskas pulled Calathes out and put Spanoulis in and shortly after Zissis too. Result? 33-41. And Calathes didn't enter the game again until midway in the 4th quarter. Result when he came in? Greece cuts the margin from -17 to -8. Yet it is Zissis that enjoys the playing time and trust...

        And so Kazlauskas made the mistake of picking Zissis instead of Vassiliadis, he didn't prepare his team for zone defenses and made Spanoulis the leader of this team. As a result, he struggled against way inferior teams like China and Puerto Rico and lost pants-down to Turkey. But the most amazing thing is that team Greece, a team that was always defense-oriented, cashed in 81 points by China, 80 by Puerto Rico and 76 by Turkey!!!! In other words puppet or not Kazlauskas managed to dismantle this team's biggest weapon while doing nothing in other areas. Hilarious.

        And as I said this tournament should have been a tournament of rebuilding for the greek team. give time to youngsters so they will be ready when it matters. You cannot rebuild during a Eurobasket since there are WC and OG qualifications at stake. So what better time than this year? But no, instead the federation wanted to go for medals and now they just failed at both. Congrats...

        Also congrats to Turkey (not ironic ones though). Tanjevic has made a solid and well-thought team. They may not face very tough competition till the final game (not taking away anything from them), and there with the crowd boosting them, they may even go all the way. I'll be rooting for Turkey for the title after Germany is eliminated.

        Goodbye and goodnight sucking Greece
        certain good points in your post but do relax.....its a long way yet.
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        GERA ELLADARA MOU!!!!!

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        • Originally posted by robbe View Post
          Good game from Turkey. Probably the best performance I've seen from a Turkish national team since ... 2001, but it isn't coming out of nowhere. Take the 2009 performance, add home court advantage, and you'd expect them to be a tournament contender. Point guard play is a little underrated. Tunceri did only good things yesterday, he often does. Don't let bad shooting numbers fool you, he often gets the ball back late in possession and needs to hoist long three pointers.

          Hedo is on course for about the same shooting percentage he had in Poland (ca. 30%; it's 23.5% now, but that will get better) so that's okay for his standards. Considering he went up against Diamantidis most of the time (who he was 0/8 on FG against), 2/12 for the game is actually pretty good.

          Of course it wasn't an everyday performance by Ilyasova. It's not like he did things we hadn't seen from him at Barca or last year in Poland, it's just a question of putting it all together. 6/6 from three point land is an exceptional performance the like of which we'll hardly see again from him this tournament. He's not as awesome as Heiko Schwarzenegger after all.

          Greece did so many mistakes, first applying no ball pressure whatsoever and thus letting Ilyasova run hot hurt them all game. Then Diamantidis runs a pick and roll clinic for 20 minutes against man-man, but whenever they switch to the zone, it takes Greece out. They've played ca. 102 of their 120 tournament minutes against zone.

          Calathes usually boosts the defense, too bad his decisionmaking vs. the zone is more than questionable. Not sure why Kaimakoglou isn't getting more minutes on PF. Bourousis is lazy on defense. I can't count how many shooting big men or guards in isolation have made wide open threes against him because he was too lazy to challenge them at the three point line. Happened vs. Arslan and happen vs. Wang Zhizhi repeatedly. Sofo was always a step late vs. mobile centers Asik and Erden.

          Too bad Greece seems to have lost the ability to play top notch defense, grind out results and get better as the tournament progresses.
          Great post. The most disappointing thing for me has been Greece's subpar performance in ALL THREE GAMES. So we can't just say, "we had a bad game against Turkey" and move on. The team is a mere shadow of the team that played in Love Cyprus and early Acropolis games. How is it possible to reach your peak at the Love Cyprus tournament FFS? That is most infuriating. If we had played this way throughout the preparation, I would say that this is the level of the team, be disappointed in this, and move on. But this sudden precipitous drop in quality, especially in defensive intensity and ball movement and inside-out game on offense, is maddening.The problem seems to be primarily psychological - the players seem lethargic, unimaginative, almost unmotivated. This has led to too many 3-point shots (despite the zone - they should be able to find other solutions) and high FG percentages and offensive rebounds for our opponents. Now we have a throwaway game against CIV (no conclusions can be drawn one way or the other from this game) and a game we have the incentive to lose against RUS. In other words, we don't really have the opportunity to improve our game in the next two matches. If we play our hearts out against RUS, they will be happy to let us win by 40. What insights will we have gained from that?

          So Greece has underperformed in the 3 games that matter, and is now faced with 2 games that don't matter (in the way they should). It seems hard for me to imagine how we are going to suddenly elevate our quality of play under these circumstances. In my mind, Kazlauskas has to bear much of the blame for what has happened. The quality of the players is beyond doubt. Something in the preparation has led us to not play our best basketball at the right time. I hope we can somehow improve our play and win a medal - and g,g. is right that in past tournaments we have underperformed early only to raise our game later in the tournament. I hope that is the case here as well.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by christodoulou76 View Post
            Great post. The most disappointing thing for me has been Greece's subpar performance in ALL THREE GAMES. So we can't just say, "we had a bad game against Turkey" and move on. The team is a mere shadow of the team that played in Love Cyprus and early Acropolis games. How is it possible to reach your peak at the Love Cyprus tournament FFS? That is most infuriating. If we had played this way throughout the preparation, I would say that this is the level of the team, be disappointed in this, and move on. But this sudden precipitous drop in quality, especially in defensive intensity and ball movement and inside-out game on offense, is maddening.The problem seems to be primarily psychological - the players seem lethargic, unimaginative, almost unmotivated. This has led to too many 3-point shots (despite the zone - they should be able to find other solutions) and high FG percentages and offensive rebounds for our opponents. Now we have a throwaway game against CIV (no conclusions can be drawn one way or the other from this game) and a game we have the incentive to lose against RUS. In other words, we don't really have the opportunity to improve our game in the next two matches. If we play our hearts out against RUS, they will be happy to let us win by 40. What insights will we have gained from that?

            So Greece has underperformed in the 3 games that matter, and is now faced with 2 games that don't matter (in the way they should). It seems hard for me to imagine how we are going to suddenly elevate our quality of play under these circumstances. In my mind, Kazlauskas has to bear much of the blame for what has happened. The quality of the players is beyond doubt. Something in the preparation has led us to not play our best basketball at the right time. I hope we can somehow improve our play and win a medal - and g,g. is right that in past tournaments we have underperformed early only to raise our game later in the tournament. I hope that is the case here as well.
            If it was up to me I would go full blast against IC and Russia to win both games. Spain this year is there for the picking. Without Pau are simply not that good. A semi-good Greece can take them and throw them out of the tournament early on. That would hurt Spain lots and give such a boost to the Greek players. With morale sky-high can go then against the US and give everything to a kill or die game. Even if they loose can hold heads up proudly as only the few big teams can do!
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            GERA ELLADARA MOU!!!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by christodoulou76 View Post
              Great post. The most disappointing thing for me has been Greece's subpar performance in ALL THREE GAMES. So we can't just say, "we had a bad game against Turkey" and move on. The team is a mere shadow of the team that played in Love Cyprus and early Acropolis games. How is it possible to reach your peak at the Love Cyprus tournament FFS? That is most infuriating. If we had played this way throughout the preparation, I would say that this is the level of the team, be disappointed in this, and move on. But this sudden precipitous drop in quality, especially in defensive intensity and ball movement and inside-out game on offense, is maddening.The problem seems to be primarily psychological - the players seem lethargic, unimaginative, almost unmotivated. This has led to too many 3-point shots (despite the zone - they should be able to find other solutions) and high FG percentages and offensive rebounds for our opponents. Now we have a throwaway game against CIV (no conclusions can be drawn one way or the other from this game) and a game we have the incentive to lose against RUS. In other words, we don't really have the opportunity to improve our game in the next two matches. If we play our hearts out against RUS, they will be happy to let us win by 40. What insights will we have gained from that?

              So Greece has underperformed in the 3 games that matter, and is now faced with 2 games that don't matter (in the way they should). It seems hard for me to imagine how we are going to suddenly elevate our quality of play under these circumstances. In my mind, Kazlauskas has to bear much of the blame for what has happened. The quality of the players is beyond doubt. Something in the preparation has led us to not play our best basketball at the right time. I hope we can somehow improve our play and win a medal - and g,g. is right that in past tournaments we have underperformed early only to raise our game later in the tournament. I hope that is the case here as well.


              No Worries !! Greece lost to another good team with fan support. Greece still knows how to win even when it underperformes. Actually I believe Greece did not underperform against Turkey. It is just Turkey played well. You will see Greece will easily defeat Russia. I truly believe Greece has a VERY VERY good roster.
              Last edited by shutup_; 09-01-2010, 11:50 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by g.g View Post
                If it was up to me I would go full blast against IC and Russia to win both games. Spain this year is there for the picking. Without Pau are simply not that good. A semi-good Greece can take them and throw them out of the tournament early on. That would hurt Spain lots and give such a boost to the Greek players. With morale sky-high can go then against the US and give everything to a kill or die game. Even if they loose can hold heads up proudly as only the few big teams can do!
                I agree with you g.g. We need to regain our competitive fire and there is no way to do that unless we beat CIV convincingly (+25 points difference or more) and Russia (even if Russia doesn't want to win). Then, even if we lose to Spain or USA, we leave the tournament with our heads held high. And if we manage to win both games, well then. It would be another amazing Greek run!!

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                • Originally posted by shutup_ View Post
                  No Worries !! Greece lost to another good team with fan support. Greece still knows how to win even when it underperformes. Actually I believe Greece did not underperform against Turkey. It is just Turkey played well. You will see Greece will easily defeat Russia. I truly believe Greece has a VERY VERY good roster.
                  shutup - I agree with you. Turkey played very well. Congratulations to Turkey for a great performance. But I think it is clear to Greek fans, that Greece could and should have played better in the game. It is not about the result, but the performance. Even if we had won and played badly, I would be concerned. Just as I was concerned after our wins against China and Puerto Rico. We have to reach a high level of play and quickly. I hope we do it in the next 2 games.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by christodoulou76 View Post
                    shutup - I agree with you. Turkey played very well. Congratulations to Turkey for a great performance. But I think it is clear to Greek fans, that Greece could and should have played better in the game. It is not about the result, but the performance. Even if we had won and played badly, I would be concerned. Just as I was concerned after our wins against China and Puerto Rico. We have to reach a high level of play and quickly. I hope we do it in the next 2 games.

                    Christodoulou, I was talking about the performance too. Did Greece play really bad in Turkey game?? Honestly I did not watch Greece`s first two games but anyways I may be wrong. I also don`t believe Turkish team is that good. It is just they played well in Greece game. Turkish team defended very well. This is not a coincedence they did it before. I think that was the main reason for Greek players` bad shot selection. I don`t think Greece defence was that bad either. Turkish offence was too good. I am not sure they can repeat it in the following games.

                    Briefly I wouldn`t be surprised if Greece beat Spain Argentina even US and go all the way to the final. That`s the impression I got from last night`s game. As I said I may be wrong. I will watch Greece more carefully from now on.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shutup_ View Post
                      Christodoulou, I was talking about the performance too. Did Greece play really bad in Turkey game?? Honestly I did not watch Greece`s first two games but anyways I may be wrong. I also don`t believe Turkish team is that good. It is just they played well in Greece game. Turkish team defended very well. This is not a coincedence they did it before. I think that was the main reason for Greek players` bad shot selection. I don`t think Greece defence was that bad either. Turkish offence was too good. I am not sure they can repeat it in the following games.

                      Briefly I wouldn`t be surprised if Greece beat Spain Argentina even US and go all the way to the final. That`s the impression I got from last night`s game. As I said I may be wrong. I will watch Greece more carefully from now on.
                      from your mouth to God's ear, as the expression goes, (or did I mangle it?). I think the consensus in Greece (reading the reports from journalists and players, coaches) is that Greece has underperformed so far in the tournament. The two big issues are lack of defensive pressure (which also limits the fast break opportunities) and excessive reliance on 3-pointers due to zone defense (and relatively low % from 3-point line).

                      By the way, the scenarios in Group C for all teams except Turkey and CIV are mindblowing:
                      Το παιχνίδι της Πέμπτης ανάμεσα στην Ελλάδα και τη Ρωσία αναμένεται με τεράστιο ενδιαφέρον. Διότι πιθανότατα και οι δύο θα θέλουν να... χάσουν ώστε να μην πέσουν πάνω σε Ισπανία και ΗΠΑ στα δύο πρώτα νοκ άουτ. Τι θα γίνει όμως αν χάσει η Ρωσία σήμερα από την Κίνα;



                      Since this is in Greek, I will summarize by saying that if China beats Russia by more than 10 points, Russia would have to beat Greece in order to make it to the next stage. This would make a possible loss by Greece less embarrassing. Because if Russia beats China, the Russia-Greece game might involve two teams who want to lose. This is not good publicity for fair play. But it is understandable when your next two opponents are likely to be Spain and USA, the two favorites for gold. What a mess!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by christodoulou76 View Post
                        shutup - I agree with you. Turkey played very well. Congratulations to Turkey for a great performance. But I think it is clear to Greek fans, that Greece could and should have played better in the game. It is not about the result, but the performance. Even if we had won and played badly, I would be concerned. Just as I was concerned after our wins against China and Puerto Rico. We have to reach a high level of play and quickly. I hope we do it in the next 2 games.

                        Christodoulou, I was talking about the performance too. Did Greece play really bad in Turkey game?? Honestly I did not watch Greece`s first two games but anyways I may be wrong. I also don`t believe Turkish team is that good. It is just they played well in Greece game. Turkish team defended very well. This is not a coincedence they did it before. I think that was the main reason for Greek players` bad shot selection. I don`t think Greece defence was that bad either. Turkish offence was too good. I am not sure they can repeat it in the following games.

                        Briefly I wouldn`t be surprised if Greece beat Spain Argentina even US and go all the way to the final. That`s the impression I got from last night`s game. As I said I may be wrong. I will watch Greece more carefully from now on.

                        Comment


                        • good article on yesterday's game:
                          Για να ξεπεράσει τον σκόπελο της Τουρκίας στο κρισιμότερο ματς του ομίλου η Εθνική, θα έπρεπε να παρουσιάσει σημαντική βελτίωση σε σχέση με τις δυο πρώτες αναμετρήσεις του ομίλου.


                          Kazlauskas has made some disastrous decisions...Printezis doesn't play at all. So why not have Vasiliadis on the squad. Why play Diamantidis at 2-3 and not 1. Why play Spanoulis at 1? etc...

                          Comment


                          • i'll give some stats to show Greece's unorthodox way of playing:
                            2p attemtps per game:
                            Greece: 26.7 (lowest of all countries)
                            Serbia, Usa, Argentina, Lithuania, Turkey: 35-43

                            3p attempts pg:
                            Greece: 34 (highest of all countries)
                            Serbia, Usa, Argentina, Spain, Lithuania: 22-25

                            Of course you'll say Greece shoots more 3ps because opponents play zone defense against them. Well thats what happens when you have not prepared any systems to penetrate the zone. It is like all of a sudden Greece is the only team in the tournament that doesnt have top class 3p shooters and everyone decides to play zone.

                            Accumulated stats:
                            Diamantidis: 2/4 2p 6/22 3p
                            Spanoulis: 7/11 2p 8/18 3p
                            Zisis: 5/11 2p 6/16 3p
                            Bourousis: 9/18 2p 6/19 3p

                            For me this look an unprepared team, with no strategy to play against zone, which on top of that has lost its ability to play good defense. Coach Kazlauskas is to blame most about this situation.
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKVlty4FsZo&
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5PCpxV2Imw

                            Comment


                            • Some critique in good faith from the past 3 games:
                              * Greek players looks lazy on both ends of the floor; on offense they opt for the easy 3pt shot, with no on/off the ball movement, on defense there is minimal press especially against a team that plays with many big bodies in their line-up.
                              * I'd like to see guards with fresh legs and/good defenders, that's DD and Calathes as was mentioned before, play more.
                              * Also, kaimakoglou brings some energy on the defense, put him in for longer stretches.
                              * In general, everyone knows that if you want to apply press defense you need a longer rotation so you can maintain your intensity. Kazla needs to extend his rotation.
                              * Also the mid-range game is a long-time weakness of Greek bball. IMO it depends on several factors; fundamentals like dribbling (Greek SFs and, partially, SGs traditionally look awkward when trying to put the ball on the floor), and quickness-athleticism so you can get closer to the basket before the defender. VSpan is the only good slasher of Greece because of the latter but he is not consistent with his decision making.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GR8BBALL View Post
                                Some critique in good faith from the past 3 games:
                                * Greek players looks lazy on both ends of the floor; on offense they opt for the easy 3pt shot, with no on/off the ball movement, on defense there is minimal press especially against a team that plays with many big bodies in their line-up.
                                * I'd like to see guards with fresh legs and/good defenders, that's DD and Calathes as was mentioned before, play more.
                                * Also, kaimakoglou brings some energy on the defense, put him in for longer stretches.
                                * In general, everyone knows that if you want to apply press defense you need a longer rotation so you can maintain your intensity. Kazla needs to extend his rotation.
                                * Also the mid-range game is a long-time weakness of Greek bball. IMO it depends on several factors; fundamentals like dribbling (Greek SFs and, partially, SGs traditionally look awkward when trying to put the ball on the floor), and quickness-athleticism so you can get closer to the basket before the defender. VSpan is the only good slasher of Greece because of the latter but he is not consistent with his decision making.
                                a very good analysis!

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