Turkish Prospects

[Toruko]

Well, this is correct. We need a core out of EL players, serious EL players. For this it is crucial to build a habit of using Turkish players but FB as well as Efes were too ambitious to prepare players for serious roles for EL. The problem is not that these clubs dont use Turkish players. They would have if they had been ready. Our players just dont go to weaker teams to get used to the EL. No Turk from Istanbul would want to live in Kaunas. This is what we need to change and in order this to be happen they need to prove themselves in lower levels and this is happening right now. We have enough young guys who are living abroad in Spain, Serbia, Macedonia etc. and I dont believe Ataman is against using them. He just doesnt trust them thats all. Sanli is the best example of it.

[slice me nice]

For turkish bb, only goal can be reaching the level of the top nations(Spain, France, Serbia, Lithuania, Slovenia(Doncic), Lithuania hasn't an impressive talent pool but they had more success in the last 10 years as other countries, except 2-3 others)

It is almost impossible to reach the level of France and Serbia in short term. You can beat them, but this will never mean we are a better off basketball nation unless we change whole basketball education. France has built a great system recently, they export approximately 10 high level players in a year and they started to do it regularly. Erman Kunter has great analysis on French basketball and its recent improvement. It can be found on the net. I highly appreciate what they have done in the last decade and they should be a role model for us.

On the other side, we barely produce high level players, let's say 2 players from each generation and naturally some of these talents rot and we get only 5 players from 10 generation. Serbia and France manage to get 20 players from 10 generation although they rot some talents like we do, their talent pools are too big to compensate this. Huge difference.

As I always say, Turkish basketball is the biggest potential in Europe. But we still couldn't learn the utilize this potential properly. In order to leap forward, basketball education in youth setup needs to be reapproached. It always amaze me how authorities don't ask themselves that why we always produce only role players but not star players like we had in past. Because basketball has changed, concepts have changed yet the Turkish basketball education has remained same.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[TurkfromGermany]

It always amaze me how authorities don't ask themselves that why we always produce only role players but not star players like we had in past.

This is a big and false myth in turkish bb. Turkish bb did never produce more star prospects in the past. Haluk Yildirim(72), Semsettin Bas(73), or even we can´t call Hüseyin Besok(75), Serkan Erdogan(78) as star players. The difference is that in the past those players had the opportunity to play at least 30mpg and take 15fg per game. This is very simple but this is the truth about past and present turkish bb. Of course Serkan Erdogan is 10 times better version of Melih Mahmutoglu etc. Harun Erdenay, Ibrahim Kutluay, Mehmet Okur were the real star calibre talents in turkish bb. Hidayet Türkoglu isn´t a typical star too, he had a good NBA career but overall overrated, almost in every Eurobasket the worst player of the whole tournament. Pretty sure that he would never had the impact of Siskauskas, Papaloukas etc. in EL if he would stay in Europe.

Osman Nurveren(07, C) is 205-6(without shoes) kid from Kayseri. I watched some games of the U14 NT(Youtube, Osman Nurveren was the only U15 player in the team). He is a classic big, in whole Europe this kid would play as modern big......Most likely we will see him soon in Istanbul. Has very good touch under basket, will be over 210 and solid physical tools.

In this U14 team, some important players from the 08 generation were present like Ali Özülkü(Fener, PG), Atilla Gülecyildiz(Besiktas, F)
but other players like Ömer Ege Ziyaettin, Efe Doran Turhanoglu etc. were missed. But i saw 1 unnoticed player in the team,
Mustafa Ozan Celik(Ege Asist Izmir, SG), this kid is just a jewel, a raw jewel. I hope Ege Asist and TBF know what this kid means,
he is a very special potential, i hope he will get special attention from TBF and will work with good coaches. We could see him soon in Istanbul. His height is big for a very young SG(born in September), i hope he will not be too big for a SG. Phantastic 1v1 potential, athleticism and physical tools. Could be a top3 talent in the turkish bb in 1-2 years.

[slice me nice]

This is a big and false myth in turkish bb. Turkish bb did never produce more star prospects in the past. Haluk Yildirim(72), Semsettin Bas(73), or even we can´t call Hüseyin Besok(75), Serkan Erdogan(78) as star players. The difference is that in the past those players had the opportunity to play at least 30mpg and take 15fg per game. This is very simple but this is the truth about past and present turkish bb. Of course Serkan Erdogan is 10 times better version of Melih Mahmutoglu etc. Harun Erdenay, Ibrahim Kutluay, Mehmet Okur were the real star calibre talents in turkish bb. Hidayet Türkoglu isn´t a typical star too, he had a good NBA career but overall overrated, almost in every Eurobasket the worst player of the whole tournament. Pretty sure that he would never had the impact of Siskauskas, Papaloukas etc. in EL if he would stay in Europe.

Who is the star right now? Nobody. No player carry this team on his own. You are already proving my point. In the past, we at least had one player that is labelled as the leader of the team. Okur, Erdenay, Kutluay, Türkcan, Aşık or like or not Türkoğlu were all leaders and arguably stars in basketball world. We got one Eurobasket silver and one WC silver with the leadership of these players. Can you dream of a medal right now with freaking Osman and Korkmaz taking the helms when the things matter on the court? What is worse than having no star in your roster is that having average players who show off themselves as star players as Osman and Korkmaz does.

The thing is that we have never had a lot of quality players in our talent pool, but we had enough number of them to get 2 medals in a decade. Now, we have none. We will never have another one unless we keep up with the changing basketball concepts.

[Toruko]

Who is the star right now? Nobody. No player carry this team on his own. You are already proving my point. In the past, we at least had one player that is labelled as the leader of the team. Okur, Erdenay, Kutluay, Türkcan, Aşık or like or not Türkoğlu were all leaders and arguably stars in basketball world. We got one Eurobasket silver and one WC silver with the leadership of these players. Can you dream of a medal right now with freaking Osman and Korkmaz taking the helms when the things matter on the court? What is worse than having no star in your roster is that having average players who show off themselves as star players as Osman and Korkmaz does.

The thing is that we have never had a lot of quality players in our talent pool, but we had enough number of them to get 2 medals in a decade. Now, we have none. We will never have another one unless we keep up with the changing basketball concepts.

We had and still have trouble with distributing roles. You are right with all the things above. We had a drought of more than 10 years and were forced to give that role to an overwhelmed Cedi Osman 2017 following. Normally, Korkmaz was the talent who should have taken over that role. Being not that aggressive he rejected to take the responsibility. This time we need to find another Turkish leader besides Larkin. Larkin is a glue guy for the next 1-2 years and I am sure Sengün will be the other guy who will take the responsibility at least on the offensive end.

[TurkfromGermany]

Who is the star right now? Nobody. No player carry this team on his own. You are already proving my point. In the past, we at least had one player that is labelled as the leader of the team. Okur, Erdenay, Kutluay, Türkcan, Aşık or like or not Türkoğlu were all leaders and arguably stars in basketball world. We got one Eurobasket silver and one WC silver with the leadership of these players. Can you dream of a medal right now with freaking Osman and Korkmaz taking the helms when the things matter on the court? What is worse than having no star in your roster is that having average players who show off themselves as star players as Osman and Korkmaz does.

The thing is that we have never had a lot of quality players in our talent pool, but we had enough number of them to get 2 medals in a decade. Now, we have none. We will never have another one unless we keep up with the changing basketball concepts.

Your opinion is that turkish bb doesn´t produce enough quality too receive a better level. I´m not happy with the produced prospects, with producing role players etc. but even with this level of prospects turkish bb would reach the level among top 5-6 in Europe if those players would get real chance in their teams. I don´t know why turkish people bashing so hardly against Furkan Korkmaz´ NT performance. Can you show me 1 turkish player with good NT career? No you can´t because there isn´t 1. Even this Furkan Korkmaz showed in all his tournaments at least decent performance and if he had the character too lead a team then he would even show much more.

In cases of Onuralp and Sadik we can see what happens if you get a real chance. You said that from 98-06 generations there are 3 difference makers with Adem Bona, Demir Dogan, Hamza Mestoglu(big fan of him but do you know that this kid is just 200 as PF?). Did you missed just the name of Alperen Sengün or do you no believe that he will be difference maker for turkish NT?

[slice me nice]

Your opinion is that turkish bb doesn´t produce enough quality too receive a better level. I´m not happy with the produced prospects, with producing role players etc. but even with this level of prospects turkish bb would reach the level among top 5-6 in Europe if those players would get real chance in their teams. I don´t know why turkish people bashing so hardly against Furkan Korkmaz´ NT performance. Can you show me 1 turkish player with good NT career? No you can´t because there isn´t 1. Even this Furkan Korkmaz showed in all his tournaments at least decent performance and if he had the character too lead a team then he would even show much more.

In cases of Onuralp and Sadik we can see what happens if you get a real chance. You said that from 98-06 generations there are 3 difference makers with Adem Bona, Demir Dogan, Hamza Mestoglu(big fan of him but do you know that this kid is just 200 as PF?). Did you missed just the name of Alperen Sengün or do you no believe that he will be difference maker for turkish NT?

The chance is not given but taken. The promising players shouldn't opt for high profile teams at the beginning of their careers until they mature their games. Bitim did a very good choice by going Bursa and this move will make him earn more in long term. All those excuses that Turkish prospects can't get enough playing time in their teams make me get bored. They should be enough logical to pave the way for their careers by going the teams they can take serious roles. All those possible protective actions to make them get more playing times don't reflect credit on their careers in long term. The ones who improve themselves already start to get enough chances to come into prominence just like Kabaca. There is a huge difference between 20-21 model Kabaca in Beşiktaş and Kabaca in Galatasaray. His offense is much more polished right now so he became a serious factor in his team this season.

Korkmaz hasn't proved anything in NT level because he didn't play a single serious game under NT jersey yet. Group stages in Eurobasket 2015-2017 and WC 2019. Couple of good games scoring wise, but he was far from being a reliable actor on offensive end. I still believe in him, he can give more than he already did. Offensive potential is huge. When Türkoğlu was 22 years old in Eurobasket 2001, he was playing Eurobasket final by averaging 15,5 PPG, 5,8 RPG and 3,5 APG. Of course, the team quality is the real deal here and we can't only bash Korkmaz for the constant failures, but one thing is sure that he couldn't be the guy that had been promoted since his U-days yet. Hopefully this Eurobasket will be the one that he gives strong message to the followers with his better performance. Any less number than 15 PPG is a failure for a player like him.

Mestoğlu is definitely undersized, but I see his great skill-set superbly matching with Euro basketball. No NBA projections on him, but he will become a player that NT will utilize for years. He is the real candidate to cover PF position since I don't see Şengün as PF. I eagerly wait to watch him this year's U-18 tournament. About Şengün, I didn't count him since he is already playing in NBA, but I don't see him as the leader of team potentially for now. He is superb talented, may be an icon in Turkish basketball in the future, but for my basketball taste he is integrative part of the team rather than being the main guy of the team. His defence has a long way to go, he disrupts the integrity of team defense. This can of course be fixed in time. We are lucky to have such a offensive potential like him.

[TurkfromGermany]

The chance is not given but taken.

Bu kadar saf olmayin. 19, 21 yasindaki cocugun 29 yasindaki tecrübeli, donanimli yabancidan formayi kapmasini daha cok beklersiniz. Yatirim yapilmasi gereken yetenege yatirim yapilir, yani dakika ve sorumluluk verilir ve iste bu Türkiye disinda tüm Avrupa´da gerceklesen olay bu. Onuralp ve Sadik senin dedigin gibi gelistikleri icin degil, antrenörleri onlara güvenip o rolü verdikleri icin parladilar(ne büyük tesadüftür ki bunu yabanci koclar altinda yasadilar).

Serkan Erdogan 27 yasinda, yani 2005 yilinda star oldu. Nasil oldu anlatayim mi? NBA´den Dion Glover skorer olarak geldi ama uyum saglayamadi ve gitti ve bu oyuncu yerine baska oyuncu alinmadi ve Serkan sadece 2-3, dominant olmayan yabanciyla 2-1-3 pozisyonlarini paylasip Euroleague´de isim yapip Tau Ceramica´ya transfer oldu. Günümüz kosullarinda olmasi imkansiz kosullar gercekleserek cikisini yapti.

Deginmek istemeyerek yine Hidayet konusunu acmak zorunda hissediyorum kendimi cünkü neredeyse katildigi bütün turnuvalarin, tüm oyuncularin icinde takimina en cok zarari veren oyuncu olarak bitirmesine karsin Türk insani her seyi 2 gün sonra unuttugu icin cok iyi bir milli takim kayiyeri yapti zannediliyor. 2001´de kendine göre iyi bir turnuva gecirmesine ragmen tek Almanya macinda gercekten iyi oynadi, finalde gercek Hidayet´i izletti ve onun yüzünden cok kötü bir gün geciren Sirbistan´a karsi sansimiz olmadi.

Okben Sirbistan´da takimin lideriyken Lazarevic takimin rotasyon oyuncusuydu ve bu oyuncu bu yil Euroleague rotasyon oyuncusu olarak oynadi. Okben oynasin, Okben hak ediyor olarak lütfen algilanmasin, Okben istemedigi icin hic bir seyi hak etmiyor ama Avrupa´da bu kadar alt seviyede(Lazarevic) oyuncu bile Avrupa´nin en üst seviyesinde sans buluyor ama tek bir Türk bile bulamiyor, cok garip......

Biraz düsünün, Kaselakis´in(90) oynadigi bir Euroleague´de nasil oluyorda tek bir Türk oyuncu yok. Yunanistan´in 89-90 jenerasyonu Pappas(sakatlik ve karakter) ve Koufos haric bütün oyuncularindan gerekli randimani alip, bizim neredeyse bütün 95-97 jenerasyonu kaybetmemiz acik ve net bizim sistemimizdeki problemle aciklanabilir. Iste o bizim sistem(ya da sistemsizlik) bize daha iyi bir Furkan Korkmaz sunamadi, nasil olsun ki? Ikinci ligde oynayabilecegi yil a takima alinip köse sutörü olarak kullanildi, sonraki sezon 3 ay Banvit´te oyun tarzina daha yakin bir sablonda sans bulup NBA´in yolunu tuttu. Sezon basi oyuna yön vermesi istendi ve maalesef basarili olamadi, nasil olsun ki, bu oyun tarzini en son Mayis 2014´te U18 Türkiye sampiyonasinda oynamisti(top gercekten Furkan´daydi cünkü Okben o yil U18 liginde oynamadi). Bir de Bogdan Bogdanovic´in nasil kendi oyun tarzini oynayarak adim adim büyüdügünü incelemekte fayda var.......

[slice me nice]

Bu kadar saf olmayin. 19, 21 yasindaki cocugun 29 yasindaki tecrübeli, donanimli yabancidan formayi kapmasini daha cok beklersiniz. Yatirim yapilmasi gereken yetenege yatirim yapilir, yani dakika ve sorumluluk verilir ve iste bu Türkiye disinda tüm Avrupa´da gerceklesen olay bu. Onuralp ve Sadik senin dedigin gibi gelistikleri icin degil, antrenörleri onlara güvenip o rolü verdikleri icin parladilar(ne büyük tesadüftür ki bunu yabanci koclar altinda yasadilar).

The system is indeed wrong and not matching with our fruitful basketball environment. There is not only one right and one wrong in this evaluation. What I say is that giving guaranteed minutes to prospects doesn't reflect good on their careers. We already saw this when 3+2 rule was applied. All those promising players were disappeared even though they had enough playing times. For the player development, the most important thing is the quality of the role taken in team. Players are generally captured by their greedy agents and being misdirected. Where is the logic if a player decides to stay in Efes despite he knows he can't get minutes. Just an example, Saybir has lost his years in Efes and hasn't given anything to senior level basketball yet, many of lower-level teams were after him. The ones who want to make progress in their careers do the right move by going somewhere they can be more than a role player. After they are getting hardened, they try their chances at more competitive club. Things work like that. Nobody can expect big clubs to give meaningful minutes to promising players just because they offer something for future. The only thing matters for the clubs is title except the projected clubs like old-good Banvit.

I don't want to sound like I am a pro-Hedo, but you are definitely being unfair to his NT career. Except his last two international tournaments, he managed to be main offensive power of team with acceptable percentages. Most of the time his efforts felt short because of the general power of team. How do you decide "He was always the most damaging player between all players"? You know this is pure lunacy if you really believe what you say.

[okanial]

People are harsher on Osman then Korkmaz. Like it or not Cedi gave his all in any game he played in NT and aside from the infamous USA game I don't recall any ge he hurt the team. He is the only willing player to take charge when things are not going good and he is a good enough passer/creator to keep others involved while getting his own shots which is what I think is really important. Korkmaz plays as a scorer not a leader, which is a personality thing. Osman is not the most talented but were the most fitting due to his mindset.
If we have Alperen and Larkin on the court, Osman will thrive with lower pressure and can lead a successful team in Europe. He can be a first option on offense but he shouldnt be the only option. We saw this year how good he played with Rubio next to him. Larkin will provide the sMe

[Toruko]

People are harsher on Osman then Korkmaz. Like it or not Cedi gave his all in any game he played in NT and aside from the infamous USA game I don't recall any ge he hurt the team. He is the only willing player to take charge when things are not going good and he is a good enough passer/creator to keep others involved while getting his own shots which is what I think is really important. Korkmaz plays as a scorer not a leader, which is a personality thing. Osman is not the most talented but were the most fitting due to his mindset.
If we have Alperen and Larkin on the court, Osman will thrive with lower pressure and can lead a successful team in Europe. He can be a first option on offense but he shouldnt be the only option. We saw this year how good he played with Rubio next to him. Larkin will provide the sMe

First option will be Larkin, thats sure.
Second option will be Sengün, at least should be
Third option will be Korkmaz if he doesnt shy away.
Rest is if the opponents defense is unbalanced.

The problem is not the offense though, never was
The problem is the control of the ball and the defense.
Thats why I wanted Sipahi to combine him with different
players who are too short or play poor defense but it seems this wont be happening.
The player I want him to find a proper role is Onuralp Bitim since he can play on both ends.
Such glue guys are exremely important for any team.

[slice me nice]

First option will be Larkin, thats sure.
Second option will be Sengün, at least should be
Third option will be Korkmaz if he doesnt shy away.
Rest is if the opponents defense is unbalanced.

The problem is not the offense though, never was
The problem is the control of the ball and the defense.
Thats why I wanted Sipahi to combine him with different
players who are too short or play poor defense but it seems this wont be happening.
The player I want him to find a proper role is Onuralp Bitim since he can play on both ends.
Such glue guys are exremely important for any team.

Excluding Sipahi from Eurobasket when he had his break-out season is a disastrous decision by Ataman. He is the only true PG who could give you defensive contribution and ability to lead the organization on offensive end. People generally do not recognize the value of players like Sipahi. He has been criticized by the basketball community because his stats-sheet has been usually empty because of all those intangible things he does on court haven't reflected on stats until this season. Unlike previous seasons, he managed to fill the stats-sheet and averaged 7,5 APG this season and make his team-mates looked better than they actually are. Just as an example, Egehan Arna's performance improved depending upon the arrival of Sipahi in the second half of the season. He is a great team-player. Playing small ball with Sipahi - Larkin - Korkmaz - Osman - Şengün line-up would be great. Plus Sipahi's presence on court boosts your chances to post the oppenent's guard up through close basket to enrich offensive assets. Damn, what a big mistake by Ataman.

[slice me nice]

FIBA Youth Setup Development Project Tournament held in Turkey with the participation of U-15 NTs of Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey. The games were low quality, Turkey outscored the opponents 50 points in average. It is meaningless to judge something from this tournament, but still Kaan Onat ('07) of Efes was the star of the tournament. Really crafty, talented PG. Plus, he is lefty. We need to see what he is capable of against better opponents.

[TurkfromGermany]

Yes against good competition things will be clearer. But Kaan Onat(came from Ankara last season) is clearly above average for turkish standards. He showed that in Efes´ U16 whole season. But he was the star because the real star Derin Can ÜSTÜN got hurt in the first minutes of the first game(anyway Derin Can would not force at this level). Kaan Onat is not PG, he is better as SG. The same thing like Yagiz Aksu, a combo but better as SG. Yavuz Selim Kara(PF, Bahcesehir) is a raw jewel, next year he will most likely have his coming out. Even in this season he had just 5mpg. He has almost zero bb background but he showed even in passing and understanding not bad signs. Kid is a jewel, of course not the level of Demir Dogan but same atheticsm and same unbelievable quickness. He is without shoes something like 202-3. He has enough time, after next season we will see a completely different player. Third very active player was the swingman Atahan Akbas(Efes), i like him very much too, maybe not his skills but his mentality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViW1i-cBTuI

In this game we can see again with 13 Ömer Yusuf Şık(G, 2009). In this game he impressed me even more. I hope this is not because of maturity. Kid shows special talent. I´m following all turkish players from a very young age and what Ömer Yufus shows is very special for turkish standards. Years ago you could see this special talent from Derin Can Ãœnstün(but total different players) too. If no maturity in game then a special G-talent for turkish bb like Derin Can Ãœstün.

[slice me nice]

Derin Can Ãœstün is indeed a special talent. He had few great games in U-18 championship against older guards. He is the project player of Bahçeşehir College just like what Özdemiroğlu means for Darüşşafaka. Almost played for every youth teams of Bahçeşehir so far, and it seems he is already getting special treatment from Bahçeşehir. He had attended even few practices of senior team which a very valuable thing for a youngster.

Still, I would rather waiting a little bit more to evaluate his actual potential, just hold tight, he hasn't showed anything in international arena yet. İlyasoğlu, Küçük and Akyüz were talented as much as Ãœstün and dominated even older players in U-levels in Turkey, yet things didn't go as planned for them. They are no-factors for senior level basketball. 2022 U-16 European Championship should be the aim for Ãœstün, he may crack the rotation as one year younger player and show something meaningful on court in international arena.

Btw, I also liked Beren Demir Özdemir ('07) of Efes a lot. Very good frame for forward position and understanding for the game. His inside-outside balanced offense is attention grabbing. He is unnoted for now, but with constant development, we will hear his name often.