Player naturalisations

[Italian Pride]

Guys,i have a question:

Donte Di Vincenzo,"big ragù" is looking to get italian passport next summer,so he could be include like italian without restriction or not? In Italy some people think that this case is very close to calathes,bramos and koufous' cases that have played many years together in the national team

Somebody can explain me what case is it,please?

[Adon]

Citizenship is a formality defined by the laws of each country. Since there is no violation of local laws or FIBA laws, everything is legit and every other discussion is philosophical. On the other hand, nationality -depending always on a subjective definition- could have degrees. For example, most people would agree that Calathes is somewhat "less Greece" than Spanoulis because he doesn't speak Greek fluently, he was raised in the US, etc. Using the same reasoning, Maccaleb is "less FYROMacedonian" than Calathes is Greek because the later was raised by Greek parents and so on.

Is there an objective and generally accepted line other than the citizenship and the conventions of international laws? Imo no. It's just a matter of aesthetics for every observer or (as Victorious wrote) a matter of the local fans. Anything else is a never ending and tiresome discussion without algorithm, a discussion which is a chance for nationalistic propaganda.

[MZT Skopje]

Everyone exept Albanians has to do with Macedonian history since aromanins, serbs, bulgarians did live in the macedonian region for a long time eve if they have nothing to do with aleksander. And specialy us from the pelagonia region haver a lot in commen with Greeks. We do even have a bloodline connections, not poeple from Skopje but we from Pelagonia.

I have made a family investigation and it do show that my grandfathers grandfather used to be greek. I do not know why, we did not care about it anymore is my wildest guess. Serbs and Bulgarians did ruin every greek school in Bitola, changed our names. We gott use to it. But I see this as my home today. Also poeple in Macedonia are very friendly maybe thats why the asimilation did go very well.

But you have to understand to me this aint importent. I am a Communist based person.

[HELLAS]

You should be very carefull when it comes to bloodline, my response is to aenaon as well. Iam prob more Hellenic Macedonian than any of you Greeks on this forum since I am born in Bitola (Part of the Pelagonia region witch includes Gevgelija, Prilep, Krusevo, Pespa and Ohrid too). Used to belong the old Macedonian map. People in this city used to be hellenic we all got slavonizized. You know in Bitola exist over 4000 graves with Greeks names, old poeple who died of age. But I do not care about it, I do not care if I am more Macedonina that Athenian who moved to Thesaloniki 1913 or some of you who are born in Athens.

In Macedonia as you prefer as FYROM had 3 deferent tribes, slavic, aromanian and hellenic. Here used to live Greeks, Bulgarinas, Aromanians and Serb. Albanians showed up just 70-80 years ago.

Bloodlins belong to the nazi world, not to modern europe 2015. Thats way Calathes will allways be amaerican in my eyes. Will allways be amarican basketball product.

Wrong answer.
Never did mention anything about blood connections. All I said was that there are people with root connections.
So if you all end up slavonizized why do you still speak slavo language, instead of starting speak Greek? You are a free country now and if you were Greeks at the past (I don't doubt it) then why are you so hostile to Greece? Why you can't just admit that the G.Alexander was Greek?
You should claim Macedonia history as yours as well, and not as only yours. If you had make the first one, we would support you as well.
And of course you are right about what you said for the place. There was a part of Macedonia as well. No one doubts it.

I don't want to be hostile to FYROM people. But I can't see all these things happening in your country with people that they have nothing to do with Macedonia history.
I am happy you have the knowledge for the area and for the history as well. And yes I consider you Macedonian as well. But Macedonia can't be a country. It was Greece's kingdom like Crete Like Sparti etc. And there's a big part of Macedonia in north of Greece.

If you want to have a country by the name Macedonia, then the south section of Macedonia which belongs to Greece territory what is it then? An occupant land by the Greeks? Come on mate ... You know that both sides have there own rights.

[MZT Skopje]

GREECE
Calathis. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Koufos. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Antetokoumpo. His parents are from Nigeria but Yannis got born and lived all his life in Greece.

FYROM
Mccaleb. Ηis American from USA. Both of his parents are Americans as well. But he played for FYROM national team.

Now make your calculations. Hmm ...

As for my friends from FYROM. Guys if you want to make your point, you shouldn't use Shortsianitis Antetokoumpo Calathis or Koufos as naturalization examples because they all have Greek parents or they got born in Greece. If you were smart enough you should use examples like Tsakalidis. Yes we have make the mistake to naturalize a player in our past with Tsakalidis. He didn't born in Greece, and he didn't have Greek parents. Nothing to connect him with Greece.

We have to stop naturalize players. We have to respect our national teams more. And we all have to do that.
The point of having Eurobasket is to find out which country is the best basketball team. So we don't want the Americans play for our teams.

And something last for my friends from FYROM. Please you are free to believe that the G.Alexander had a Slavic roots. History will tell. But when you write down the word Macedonia, please don't connect the first letter ''M'' with MacDonald logo. Because that way you prove your strongly connections with the American propaganda. We are proud for G.Alexander as you are. So please show more respect to the name Macedonia and don't connect it with MacDonalds logo. It's stupid.

You should be very carefull when it comes to bloodline, my response is to aenaon as well. Iam prob more Hellenic Macedonian than any of you Greeks on this forum since I am born in Bitola (Part of the Pelagonia region witch includes Gevgelija, Prilep, Krusevo, Pespa and Ohrid too). Used to belong the old Macedonian map. People in this city used to be hellenic we all got slavonizized. You know in Bitola exist over 4000 graves with Greeks names, old poeple who died of age. But I do not care about it, I do not care if I am more Macedonina that Athenian who moved to Thesaloniki 1913 or some of you who are born in Athens.

In Macedonia as you prefer as FYROM had 3 deferent tribes, slavic, aromanian and hellenic. Here used to live Greeks, Bulgarinas, Aromanians and Serb. Albanians showed up just 70-80 years ago.

Bloodlins belong to the nazi world, not to modern europe 2015. Thats way Calathes will allways be amaerican in my eyes. Will allways be amarican basketball product.

[aenaon]

you mean like the Dorsey kid whom you found over internet?

he had a Greek grandpa, we didn't find him over the net, his coach was here trying to take Papagiannis to the USA and we ended up with his player instead, but I do get your point.

[Picek]

I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

you mean like the Dorsey kid whom you found over internet?

[HELLAS]

GREECE
Calathis. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Koufos. He is American born in states and his parents are Greeks.
Antetokoumpo. His parents are from Nigeria but Yannis got born and lived all his life in Greece.

FYROM
Mccaleb. Ηis American from USA. Both of his parents are Americans as well. But he played for FYROM national team.

Now make your calculations. Hmm ...

As for my friends from FYROM. Guys if you want to make your point, you shouldn't use Shortsianitis Antetokoumpo Calathis or Koufos as naturalization examples because they all have Greek parents or they got born in Greece. If you were smart enough you should use examples like Tsakalidis. Yes we have make the mistake to naturalize a player in our past with Tsakalidis. He didn't born in Greece, and he didn't have Greek parents. Nothing to connect him with Greece.

We have to stop naturalize players. We have to respect our national teams more. And we all have to do that.
The point of having Eurobasket is to find out which country is the best basketball team. So we don't want the Americans play for our teams.

And something last for my friends from FYROM. Please you are free to believe that the G.Alexander had a Slavic roots. History will tell. But when you write down the word Macedonia, please don't connect the first letter ''M'' with MacDonald logo. Because that way you prove your strongly connections with the American propaganda. We are proud for G.Alexander as you are. So please show more respect to the name Macedonia and don't connect it with MacDonalds logo. It's stupid.

[Jon_Koncak]

Come on . No difference between them? One is descendant of Greeks. Sure he was born and raised in US but it does have some affiliation with Greece ( plus he spent a few years with PAO in Greece) while the other has no relation what so ever with your country. No parents or grandparents born there or anything. I can understand naturalizing a player that spend some years in a country playing basketball there and feeling connected with said country but i dont get how someone can play for a country he never lived there or have any relation with

Actually he isnt.Calathes is adopted.

[Levenspiel]

Yes, you did that. Did it help you to win? Just look at our victory list and yours. Clear and simple. Not even talking about difference in size of Lithuania and Turkia, but we all know - size doesn't matter.

Actually, it did help us to improve. Remember Mirsad? Kuqo? You cannot just go to the top from the bottom in a few years, you know. Turkey's bball can be taken seriously only after mid-90s (imho), and we are somewhere in the top 10 in Europe I guess, which is not too bad. Lithuania is special, we cannot really get there yet, but in a few years, I can see a different picture forming, maybe nicer than Lithuania's. Another prophecy, we'll see .

[ab_mj]

I read lots of posts about this subject, who was born where, who's father from where..
I think, main criteria should be about if the player has been grown by the country or not.
Of course this not easy if Cedi has played Bosnia U14 team. I think players should be allwed choose where they want to play.

[Ashtrusis_dantis]

You don't make excuses, yet . But I have a feeling you will have to one day. that was my speculation, we'll see.

Ou, prophet. We'll see.

We Turkish have naturalized in every possible way, so we do not even bother with excuses any more. Many people are against it, but the fact is there, no need to sugarcoat it. It only bothers people for non-naturalized players to be put in the same basket, as we had strange claims here about Turkoglu, Okur, etc.

Yes, you did that. Did it help you to win? Just look at our victory list and yours. Clear and simple. Not even talking about difference in size of Lithuania and Turkia, but we all know - size doesn't matter.

[Victorious]

ofcource you don't care about bloodlines and all that, I wont say why it is obvious you don't care about things like that,
because the moderator will come flying, but it is obvious that blood lines and all is just a big joke for you

But I have a question for you: Is Giannis a product of Greek Basketball? Of course he is, he learned the game in Athens, and only moved to the nba 2 years ago. So what will happen in say 8 years from now, when he is maybe a different player, an NBA product? Will we still be allowed to call him over, and if so, will he be allowed to use the moves he learned in his nba career?

I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

It is difficult to say who is or not a true citizen of a European country nowadays, and it will only get more difficult until there are no such things as European countries.
But for the time being, let us agree that when we say we don't like naturalization very much, we are talking about the ones that resemble club team transfers, give money, take player and so on.

I would say the most important thing is how the fans of the country see it. What others think of it is their problem.

[Levenspiel]

Was you drunk when writing this comment? Can't understand what you are trying to say - Lithuanian fans make excuses? About what? We didn't have naturalised player in our NT since we returned independence in 1990. The only one who need excuses (and a lot of them) is you, your country is famous with it's naturalisations.

haha, that's possible...

You don't make excuses, yet . But I have a feeling you will have to one day. that was my speculation, we'll see.

We Turkish have naturalized in every possible way, so we do not even bother with excuses any more. Many people are against it, but the fact is there, no need to sugarcoat it. It only bothers people for non-naturalized players to be put in the same basket, as we had strange claims here about Turkoglu, Okur, etc.

[aenaon]

I do not care much about bloodlines, etc. Personaly I see no deference between Maccaleb and Calathes, the only thing that matters is if your an Product of the domestic basketball and Calathes hardly spoke any Greek few years ago hance beeing a Product of Greek basketball.

ofcource you don't care about bloodlines and all that, I wont say why it is obvious you don't care about things like that,
because the moderator will come flying, but it is obvious that blood lines and all is just a big joke for you

But I have a question for you: Is Giannis a product of Greek Basketball? Of course he is, he learned the game in Athens, and only moved to the nba 2 years ago. So what will happen in say 8 years from now, when he is maybe a different player, an NBA product? Will we still be allowed to call him over, and if so, will he be allowed to use the moves he learned in his nba career?

I am just pulling your leg, what I am trying to explain, is that bo macaleb, or any other player you buy for money through the Internet, is naturalization, the rest is natural.

It is difficult to say who is or not a true citizen of a European country nowadays, and it will only get more difficult until there are no such things as European countries.
But for the time being, let us agree that when we say we don't like naturalization very much, we are talking about the ones that resemble club team transfers, give money, take player and so on.